FP1x Cams?

[daren_p]

I recently installed a set of the FP 1x cams and since then the car has been running like crap. I have major knock on WOT pulls & I double checked my timing marks (used the RRE method to install the cams) & they seem to line up. I was wondering what kind of vacuum others were seeing with these cams and how much vacuum did you lose vs stock. Also how do they idle/how lumpy are they?

 

[TSIfreek]

I have comp 100s and idles like stock cams. Vacume is around 15 at 800 rpm

 

[blackGSX2g]

When I was stock, vacuum was 20in/hg. After a 264/272 install, vaccum lopes around 15in/hg at about 750-800rpm.

Are you 100% sure your timing marks were dead on?

Do you have any logs you can post up?

 

[andymoraitis]

Stock vacuum for me was 20-22 in/hg. After the Comp 200's, it idles at 16 in/hg at 750 RPM. I'd have to concur that the timing marks are off somewhere.

 

[daren_p]

As far as I can tell the marks are correct, I took pics so I will post them up later when I get a chance to download them. Don't have any logs, I always just use the real time in DSMLink, I'll try to get some logs tomorrow if I get a chance.

The car seems to have a good lump, atleast as much as the FP2's and VAC now reads about 13" at 750 rpm. My first thought was the timing marks as well, thats why I double checked them & they still seemed to be fine. Now I just pulled off the top cover and aligned the mark on the crank pulley with the T. I didn't pull off the mid & lower cover but the BS and oil pump marks won't have any effect to my issue?

 

[blackGSX2g]

If you still have your balance shafts installed, then the location of your oil pump in relation to your front balance shaft does matter. If they are out of phase, you will most likely feel a slight vibration that can be picked up by the knock sensor.

Have you tried getting rid of the knock by tuning yet? I needed to add a bit more fuel after my cam install.

Also did you clean and bleed out your lifters when you installed the cams?

 

[daren_p]

Yes still have the BS installed, but it doesn't seem to be a vibration at idle it does feel like a cam lump and the rpms bounce around. Knock seems to be real as if I lower the boost under 15, return the fuel slider to 0 (WB reads solid 10's as thats the lower limit) or remove some timing the knock pretty much/does go away. I did clean the lifters, I was getting some nice lifter tick on start up which would go away after a couple min, now there is no lifter tick. I wasn't paying to much attention after the install but when I was looking at the log from my drive to work today it looks like I have lost about 400 rpms in spool from ~3400 to 3800. Plus the car doesn't pull any harder in the upper rpms & I'm pretty much not seeing any increase in airflow (lb/min). All this makes me think timing but like I said it looked correct to me unless Im missing something, have to get those pics up.

Pre cam install the car ran great, thought I was running 19 psi but turns out my boost gauge went out of calibration and I was actually running more like 22-23 psi on Ultra 94, high 10's - 11 to 1 air/fuel, adding 2 deg of timing from 6500 up and no knock.

This shouldn't make a difference but I also installed crower springs/titanium retainers & new valve stem seals at the same time. I also installed ARP head studs (one at a time, head left on the car), I know its possible to throw the timing off if you get the head/block decked, I doubt this but would it be possible that the extra torque of the ARP's had an effect?

 

[TSIfreek]

The little you have your head shaved will not make any noticable increase in power or compresion . Yea sure if you take like 100 thousands off it you will have higher compesion but is not your case as eather is with your studsWTF
How are you setting the timing? If you have a logger you need to unplug it at the ECU sevice port.
With those cams it should Idle like stock. PM me your P# and I will call you and you can hear how mine runs at the tail pipe if you want. You will notice more of a torquey pull with the 100s but still pull to 7500.
You should beable to put a straight edge in the cam gears and have the marks line up. I noticed with mine for some reason that the intake and exhaust gear marks line up slightly diffrently if they wernt on the correct cam. . I swaped them over and lined up perfect.
With the rpm all over the place like you say really check for an intake leak.
Just trying to help but just basic stuff you may have looked over. It sucks if its not one thing its another

 

[TSIfreek]

Also load up the pics of the gears at the cams and the crank when its all lined up.

 

[daren_p]

TSIFreek, my head hasn't been shaved, I was just stating that when the head has been machined it could throw off the timing marks and was wondering if the extra torque from the ARP studs could have any effect (didn't think so but trying to think of everything). As far as boost leaks go I had them all fixed this spring & the car ran perfect before the cam install & I didn't remove anything to create a boost leak, though I will be doing a boost leak test tonight just to be 100% sure its still okay. As for the base timing I haven't set it, Im a 2g and can't adjust it. As for how I installed them, the one with I in the part number I put on the back of the motor and the one with the E I put at the front.

These cams are the 1x so they have the same duration as the 1's but have the same lift as the FP2's and they have an increased ramp rate so the hold the valve open longer. When you compare the FP2's & 1x's curves the amount of time the valve is open is basically the same from these to cams but I think only the duration will effect the idle? I have heard a video of the 2's and I would say mine are just as lumpy, which they shouldn't be.

Here are a couple pics

 

[TSIfreek]

Ok all looks good that I can see. Domb question but check your plug wires to make sure you didnt cross any trace from the coil to the plug. I really dont undersand why your getting all that knock thats weird with just a cam install. Can you make it knock when the car is out of gear?? Did you replace the tensioner? The tensoner arm might be slaping the tensoiner if its not adjusted properly causeing the knock to pick that up.
Also I wouldnt go off the lower timing belt cover to conferm that its correct. It may be off a tooth at the crank and the cover wont show it in some cases. I would pull that off and double check that for sure and check your clearance bettween the tensioner body and the arm. I used a drill bit to check the clearance I forgot what size it was. It sucks to pull all that off but thats one thing you know is not the probem. Im sure you will find it you just cant see it yet.

 

[blackGSX2g]

^^ I agree, might as well pull the lower cover to make sure. It would also give you a chance to check the tensioner. Does your timing belt 'flap' a bit when you rev it (read bad tensioner)?

I'd also like to know if you get the same knock on free revs or light load.

 

[daren_p]

My next step was going to be removing both timing covers & investigating further. It just seems like alot of work, when I'll be doing it all over again in the near future to change the timing belt (wanted to hold off a couple months & do all timing related components together). So to remove the covers I need to remove all the pulley's & drive belts, can I just remove the pulleys and belts or do I have to losen off the adjusters that set the tension on the alternator, PS pump etc. (didn't want to move these if I didn't have to to keep the same tension). I haven't free reved it to redline because of the lauch control but there isn't knock up to 4500, I try reving higher tomorrow.

Well I did the boost leak test and did find 2 leaks, one was large enough to hear. So I got everything tightened up & did some pulls. It is running slightly better, spool time has lowered a couple hundred rpms & the knock isn't as bad. Looks to be real knock as if I run about 12psi with low to mid 10's air/fuel, there is no knock. I tried turning the boost up and can now see about 16 psi with no/minimal knock to redline if I zero all the fuel sliders (most of the time richer then 10 to 1). The most noticeable difference was I gained the timing advance back. Seeing 16-17 by 70000 rpms where as before sometimes I would only see 10-12 deg by redline. As for the knock it only happens on WOT pulls. I haven't tried mid throttle pulls since I fixed the couple leaks but before I could do a pull with the pedal down far enough to see the boost I had it set to & it didn't seem to knock, while seeing the same boost at WOT did. Not sure why this would be as fuel/timing maps are related to airflow & not throttle position. Maybe I was just imagining things, I'll try to investigate this tomorrow as well.

One other thing I have noticed is that my boost isn't very stable, it oscillates a couple psi, so Im not sure if the turbo is surging. It did this before abit, but I could tighten my Greddy RS BOV up and it would go away. I tried both lose and tight tonight and it didn't seem to make a difference I also played around with the gain on my Profec Type S without any good results. Looks like I need to swap in the 1g BOV and try my MBC to see the source of this issue.

Was just wondering if one of the gears are out a tooth both cam or crank, how easy would it be to spot at both locations?

 

[TSIfreek]

Thats good news!! Its to bad we dont have a boost leak light in or dashes that would rock! Problem is it would be on all the time .
Yea your going to have to pull everything apart again but check your clearance on your tesioner rod before you loosen the pulley up for the timing belt just to see were your at. Taking that side of the engine apart is real easy once you do it a few times even easyer without the A/C. Yea also your going to have to loosen the all the belts to take them off so but thats real easy to tighten back up. If you didnt replace your tensioner I would at least replace that at this time for sure. You will be doing it over again but you will gain knowlage and expereace doing so.
You want 25- 27 INCH pounds when setting the timing belt tension using the pulley tool and a 1/4" dial torque wrench but can be done without just go by feel with a 1/4" rachet (the torque wrench is a little over kill). make sure the arm stays tight against the tensioner while you are tightning it the arm has a tendency to swing up while you are setting the base tension. Once the base tension is set pull the pin out and rotate the engine 6 times and let it sit for 1/2 hr to let the tensioner rod do its job then check the clearance.
If you have to much clearacnce you need to do it all over again reset the tensoner and tighten the belt a little tigher.
Also I use zip ties on the cam gears to hold the belt in place so it doesnt jump. Its a real pain in the a ss I know...

 

[daren_p]

Well it looks like I have a project over the weekend I have heard of the marks on the cover not being right on before but I was thinking, the marks lined up the same way both pre and after cam install, so the car ran fine before, had no knock issues and had the proper vacuum/idle. So I would assume the timing was proper before & if thats the case it still should be. Is there any chance that the cams are defective and ground wrong (think I'm reaching abit here)?

 

[aaannntt1965]

i know you have read this. but what you don't get with this information is the center line that the cam was cut on. in degrees. the split overlap of the ratio from intake to exhaust will directly affect the vacuum and idle quality. i would get a degree wheel and see if they have any timing advance cut into these cams.

"What does the "X" mean? Once a comfortable limit on valve acceleration was established with our dual spring kit, it was possible to generate versions of the FPCam1, 2 and 3 that took advantage of this new found spring tension. The "X" versions of the Cams are the result. They bump up the valve acceleration rate and toss on a little extra lift for good measure. "

"Requires upgraded valve springs, but does not require double springs. This "x" version of the FPCam1 maintains the idle and power band characteristics of the FPCam1 while giving additional lobe profile and max lift valve DWELL by increasing valve acceleration rate."

i hope this is good info for you.
Anthony

 

[daren_p]

Well I tried free reving the car both short bursts and slower/longer revs that would resemble a pull to redline and got zero knock. I was pretty sure I put the CAS back correctly but tried it "non inverted" just to be sure and no difference.

 

[blackGSX2g]

If your CAS was installed wrong, it wouldn't run right period. The invert CAS function on DSMLink only changes the firing order of the injectors to make them more in sync with having your firing order swapped if you do a 6-bolt swap.

Since you are running a 2g motor, you don't want the invert CAS function to be selected.

 

[daren_p]

If your CAS was installed wrong, it wouldn't run right period. The invert CAS function on DSMLink only changes the firing order of the injectors to make them more in sync with having your firing order swapped if you do a 6-bolt swap.

Since you are running a 2g motor, you don't want the invert CAS function to be selected.

Oh, didn't know about the car not running if the CAS was instralled backwards, I just thought you could install it correct or inverted, the same as what DSMLink does. Though I do need to have the CAS inverted as my car is a 98 and obviously the eprom ecu is from a 95. The 95 CAS signal is electronically inverted from a 1g or 97+.

 

[daren_p]

Well I'm in the middle of replacing the timing belt to hopefully get to the bottom of this issue. So I take all the covers off and line up the marks and what do I find, the cam sprockets are parallel to each other but are below the head surface by placing a ruler on the head surface itself. I thought great, maybe I didn't have the ruler in the center of the gears before so I place the ruler on center of the bolts like before & I could easily tell they weren't in the center anymore. So I think maybe I jumped a tooth, which seemed kind of strange since the idle hasn't changed and the vacuum is still reading the same amount low as it always was. So I rotate the crank 6 times to line up all the marks again & this time the cam sprockets are once again parallel but this time they also are level with the head surface. I'm a little stumped here, what would cause this to happen

 

[daren_p]

Alright well just finished replacing the timing belt, good new is the car is running better, bad news is Im still seeing some knock. I haven't played with the timing, all sliders are at 0, air/fuel is around 10.5 & running 20 psi, which is alot better then what I was able to run before. Spool has dropped from 3800 back down to 3400. Still not as good as when I was running stock cams (as far as knock & the tune are concerned). The car defently pulls better in the top end now as before when I first put in the cams the top end felt the same as stock. I have gained about 2" of VAC now sit at 14-14.5 @ 750 rpm, 680 ft above sea level. I know there are some guys running these cams on this board so if you could give me some info on what kind of VAC you are seeing at idle (& rpms), the amount of boost you are running on what octane, your air/fuel ratio & what you are doing/what your timing curve looks like, this would really help me out.

 

[TSIfreek]

I dont have any of that fancy stuff yet but my vac is at 15.5 -16 @ 900 RPM.
I run 13 psi for now and 93 OCT. Im am still on the stock comuter so I have no control over any timing but pulls like a sombitch if it doesnt knock off idle. No wideband (god dam it)
I will be running these cams to 25 psi at the track next year.
I like them real torqey but fall off up top above 7500. Great street cams.
I passed emissions with them without a cat!! But im still on alot of stock junk
(supporting wise) I have a nice motor though

 

[daren_p]

These cams are driving me crazy, I just can't seem to get the car to run right without knocking. I thought my new boost gauge may be reading abit low on VAC side, looks like when my autometer gauge reads 14.5 the actual reading is 16" @ 750 rpm so I would say that is probably right where it should be with these cams (indicating correct timing marks). I did take pics after the timing belt with timing marks if anyone needed to see but Im fairly sure their correct. Idle sounds proper as well now.

I realise I won't be able to run as much boost with the cams as I was with stockers (because of the increased VE) but I have to run the boost so low that I can't even see the lb/min I could see pre cams without knock, I can only run about 17 psi & see 32-33 lb/min where as before cams I would see 34 lb/min, no knock @ 21-22 psi. My air fuel ratio has to be much richer now, was running high 10's to 11 now I'm in the low tens. Before I added timing from 6500 up, now I have to pull timing from 5000 up. This is really annoying as basically I spent $1000 all together (needed springs & retainers with these cams) and am flowing less air & making less power. I tried to contact FP a couple times via email & got no reply, which is funny since I always got replies when I was getting info on purchasing the cams. I know there are some guys on here with these cams, if you could chime in or post some logs, it would be really appreciated.

 

[TSIfreek]

You have all the supporting mods so the car should fly. But in my expereance the last place I would look is the cams for your problems. Hmmmmm.How many counts of knock? When?
What is your timing at at WOT in third? What are your DC on the 750s?? Has the knock sensor been replaced recently?? Sounds to me I would look deep in the timing in the link maps possibly being the issue. Are you running the up dated lifters??
May want to run some high octane fuel and see what happens with the knock then.
Just throwing things out there for ya.

 

[daren_p]

The knock varies sometimes around 5000 on a 3rd gear pull, while other times not till 6000 or so. I have my CEL set to flash at 3 deg retard, which it hasn't at the current boost setting but have seen up to about 2 deg, while that doesn't seem to sound all that bad, Im still not nearly as well tuned as I was before cams & am flowing less & like I said pre cams there basically wasn't any knock. If I increase the boost abit to see the same amount of flow I saw pre cams, the knock continues to increase. You would think the cams would be the last thing to effect knock but I only started to have the issue when I installed the cams, nothing else changed.

For timing if it foesn't knock at all I will see 18 deg by redline, most of the time Im seeing like 15-16. Knock sensor is origional (55K on car) but I don't see radom kncok when Im not doing a wot pull and if I do a pull with 50-60% throttle, say 10-15 psi I don't see knock, so I would think this would indicate the knock sensor is still good?

My IDC is in the low 70's, was abit lower pre cams but that makes sense as the car was leaned out abit more. Not sure if my car has the 2g or 3g lifters, they have the larger hole in the end but I haven't seen pics comparing the side holes so Im not sure which ones I have. When I did the springs/retainers I cleaned the lifters as they were getting abit noisy on start up, now they are completely silent.

If I add more fuel the knock does go down but for the kind of boost I'm trying to run, I shouldn't need to be near as rich as it takes, like less then 10 to 1. Last time I was at the track I wanted to try some race gas to see what happens & the prick before me took it all The car is making some power as I trapped over 106 when I last went to the track, running about 17-18 psi, knocking with a crapy tune.