Aluminum rods on a street/strip car, and Mahle Pistons.

[insanewayne]

I've been reading about various rod brands on this site and talk, and I need to know how critical it is to tighten the rod bolts every 5K. And does this apply to all rods like eagle, crower, scat, manley, pauter etc.

Is there some rods that don't expand as much, so the bolts don't stretch as fast?

The eagle come with ARP studs installed, do they still need to be tightened ofter?

I really don't mind dropping the pan, hitting em with the torque wrench, and sealing it back up every 6 months or so. Is that what everyone does who runs aftermarket forged rods? I've just never really heard alot of mention of it. Usually all I hear is, "oh my fully built motor has been going strong for 50K now" etc.

Also, I need to know the FACTS on the Mahle forged pistons for our motors. I've read that they use an alloy that's more poreous and generally used for N/A and nitrous. And pistons for are application are generally made with a lower silicon content alloy.

The car will be Daily driven, and hit the track at least once a month.

I am looking at runnning 25 psi on the street and 30-32 psi on C-16.

Thanks a bunch,

Wayne

 

[GVR4592]

You aren't going to find anybody here with first hand experience running aluminum rods. With the steel rods, you don't need to tighten/replace the bolts like you do with aluminum rods.

 

[bryanwheat]

Please do us all a favor and but a set of crower forged steel rods, if it is a street car, you do not want aluminum rods, they will stretch overtime, due to engine breaking, they are not made to last a long time, they are made for short brief passes down the track, there are companies that say that their aluminum rods are good for a street car, but do not do it, the crowers are good for what, like 700 horses, i certianly hope that you aren't hoping on making any more than that. STAY AWAY FROM ALUMINUM RODS ON A STREET CAR.

 

[GVR4592]

I was personally gauranteed by FFWD and Groden that I could run their rods on the street every day with no problems as long as I check and replace the bolts as neccesary. I know some local guys that have Groden rods in their engines and have a lot of street driven miles on their vehicles. They don't have any problems. Where did you get your information?

 

[insanewayne]

How much more do the Crowers weigh.....I know there much more expensive.

 

[1SloColt]

How much more do the Crowers weigh.....I know there much more expensive.

The crowers are fairly light, I do know that, and are fantastic rods. Couple friends of mine run them with 7.5:1 compression venolias and they beat the living piss outta their motors for years without any problems. Groden rods are more expensive. And I see no reason why grodens won't work fine on a street car as long as you pay attention to them every so often.

 

[ITSME4G63]

Dont make it too complicated on yourself, just get the eagles or crowers and you'll be set. Aluminum tends to stretch easier, why bother even put those thoughts in your head while youre out driving the thing?

 

[Verticaljump1]

Haha, crowers are light my ass those rods weigh over 600 grams. Sorry I didn't mean to flame.

 

[insanewayne]

I'm sorry, I was under the impresion that the eagles were aluminum? (in regards to itsme4g63)

I'm looking at the eagles, I've done a ton more readin, and I think they'll be good. I want to break through 550-600 at the wheels. I'm not a noob, I have all the mods sitting here waiting...although I'm sure I'll have to add an inline with my 255, and ###### redo the lines.

What about the Mahle pistons? My machinist says that the ross will wear everything faster because of the looser tolerances they're designed with. They expand as they heat I know that, but with Daily Driven, all the warm up cycles etc...

Don't tons of people run ross's on there street cars?

There has to be someone on here who's ran the mahle's.

Thanks,

Wayne

 

[Verticaljump1]

Dude just go with Ross's or Wiseco's, it doesn't matter. Mahle, Ross, Wiseco, JE, Arias, Venolia, BRC, and CP are all FORGED pistons. Any piston that's forged will expand and contract, and getting Mahle pistons doesn't mean they will expand the least and make your motor last longer. I would worry more about your machinist adjusting the cylinder walls/ring gap to the proper clearances, because if those are f'ed up then you have some mean ass piston slap when it's cold. Eagle rods are forged steel, not aluminum, but they are in the 300-400 gram range because they use a lighter h-beam design, perfect and PROVEN to hold 650whp. Sorry if I come across as rude, I don't mean to be, I just want you to spend less time thinking and more time building sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Good luck bro...

 

[insanewayne]

No, not sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, if you take the time to research and build it right,it will work as long as you have a good machinist. Buying the name brands that you read all day on the net and slapping them in a motor is when it fails.

I'm honestly not trying to come accross as rude either, and I appreciate your input, I just didn't agree with you.

I know that all the pistons are forged, that's obvious. I'm referring to the fact that the mahle's are made from 4032 alloy, while wiseco's and the other major widely used brands are made from 2618, which is known to be better suited for high boost and nitrous applications. The 4032 alloy is known to be better suited for N/A applications, and it's also lighter, which explains how light the mahle's are. Also, it has a higher silicone content, and because of that when a failure occurs it becomes porous.

I just want some real life experiences with this, and wether or not the pistons aren't holding up as well because of their alloy. Lighter is better as long as it doesn't comprimise strength, and 250g is ####ing light.

You also obviously have no idea what your talking about. If the mahle's require a .002 wall clearance, and the ross's require .004 - .006 piston to wall clearance...then OBVIOUSLY (sarcasm) they're both expanding the same amount once at running temps......

A motor running tons of boost, will typically have hotter cyl temps, and require more clearance for the increase in expansion. If you have a .006 wall clearance, they WILL slap, maybe not badly, and you might not be able to hear it, but on a cold start, they are slapping. A street car goes through many more cold starts then a trailer queen....

 

[ITSME4G63]

I know its easy for someone who isn't building an engine to tell you what to get, and I know its not easy to make a decision when it comes down right to it, because its your money and its your time spent putting everything together and you're paranoid or under pressure. But hey, look at it this way, theres a shop out ehre called AMS (maybe you've heard of them ) and I know they run eagle rods and ross psitons on the whips they make, hell, the shop evo has em, even that 903whp did I believe, and I figure if its good enough for them, why wouldnt it be good enough for me or you?

 

[Lunch_Box]

I hope everyone that says don't use them on the street because aluminum streches realizes that it is not the rods that strech and need to be replaced but the rod studs.

 

[1SloColt]

Haha, crowers are light my ass those rods weigh over 600 grams. Sorry I didn't mean to flame.

For the amount of power they'll hold they are light, specially compared to a rod with the same power holding capabilities like a Manley or Pauter. But perhaps 80 grams doesn't make that much difference, I'm not sure. I know the Carrillos are pretty damn light, 516grams.

 

[Verticaljump1]

"You also obviously have no idea what your talking about. If the mahle's require a .002 wall clearance, and the ross's require .004 - .006 piston to wall clearance...then OBVIOUSLY (sarcasm) they're both expanding the same amount once at running temps......"

You're insulting me, yet you thought that an eagle rod was forged aluminum . Honestly what's the difference going to make for you, you're only going to be making 550-600whp anyways. If you're that concerned about shaving weight from the rotating assembly get the crank knife-edged. I'm not being skeptical I'm just wondering if there is a realistical and practical advantage of going from one piston to the other when you're only making 600whp. There are so many other variables that I wouldn't think what piston you get would make a noticable difference in reliabilty and what not. I think it's a good idea that you are evaluating your options as far as pistons and rods, but be practical. I almost sent marco close to $1400 to by 156mm pauter rods and ross 4g64 10:1 pistons for my 2.4, but I settled with eagles and wiseco's because they fit my application best. I mean is a lighter piston like the mahle's going to make the 600whp that much easier, or make it that much more reliable? I really didn't mean to flame you, honestly, but good luck on your build.

 

[Verticaljump1]

And I didn't mean to dog on the crower rods, because I had a set at one point in time, as a matter a fact I gained 1/2" on my biceps from carrying them around . Carillo's are a damn light rod ror the power they can hold, but a lot of people question the h-beam design. And I think Marco bent one at one point in time, but I'm not sure.

 

[qtxdevilz]

if you are making that much power that you need aluminum rods then i would just use pauters...they are non aluminum so they will hold up to everyday use...no need to drop the pan (if you are an awd then you will have to drop the down pipe...transfer case...and pan...) to tighten the bolts every few thousand miles...and they hold up about just as much power...i have had problems with eagles so i do not suggest using them...crowers or pauters are my suggestions...

 

[insanewayne]

What problems did you have with the Eagles?

 

[qtxdevilz]

What problems did you have with the Eagles?

they snapped at less than 500 hp...there is a thread of some others that have had the same problem before...and no it was not a tuning issue...

 

[PSI NRG]

Wouldnt aluminum have a higher chance of melting or and bending in a motor that sees excessice heat?

 

[GVR4592]

Wouldnt aluminum have a higher chance of melting or and bending in a motor that sees excessice heat?

No, they don't melt or bend. They stretch with heat and put excessive load on the bolts. Then the bolts become fatigued and the bolts eventually break, taking the rod out in the process.

 

[insanewayne]

You had eagles snap at less then 500hp? How long ago was this?

 

[GVR4592]

There are a few threads with pictures, I remember seeing them last year. Usually for a rod to fail like that, there has to be a major manufacturing flaw, or a ton of detonation.