Oil pump modifications.

[FyxxterZC]

Does anyone have any suggestion for any slight modifications to increase/smooth out oil flow on a new front casing? Or do I need the stock oil gallies in the front housing to stay the cast size to maintain pressure? I have a new topline front oil pump/casing and I am looking at any and all modifications I can do to help engine longevity and oil pressure/flow.

[tmizer]

1. Smooth out the casting flash in the 2 front oil passages in the block (radius the main galley entry while you're at it).
2. Pull the squirters and block them.
3. Install balance shaft removal kit.
4. When installing pump gasket, cut the part that extends thru the oil passages. I believe I Hylomar'd the gasket to the pump, then used an Xacto knife to trim away any gasket that would reside in the passages).

I ended up with about "ONE MILLION" psi!!! :eek:

Actually, when it's warmed up, I'm probably around 20+ psi at idle. The cylinder head see's about 1/2 the block psi at idle. At anything above 2500rpm it's probably around 90 ~ 100 psi. And I shift around 8k rpm at the track without problems. No leaks, no blown filters. Using the Toga high volume pump, pumping thru an external cooler and large filter with ~8ft -8AN hose. So YMMV.

If your next question is "what thread size is the oil squirter?" I don't remember... ended up finding heat treated bolts and cutting their length to fit, using a lockwasher and liberal application of JB Weld on the threads before running them in.

Hope this helps.

[Tevenor]

You can also modify the oil bypass valve relief hole in the oil filter housing to allow more oil to bypass under pressure. This will keep you away from the 100+ psi cold start up pressure days.

[miragetbo1997cc]

Originally Posted by Tevenor

You can also modify the oil bypass valve relief hole in the oil filter housing to allow more oil to bypass under pressure. This will keep you away from the 100+ psi cold start up pressure days.

I've always wondered how I could fix that.

[Mirage2LTurbo]

Are you suggesting to block off the oil squirters that squirt on the pistons/cylinders?

[Tevenor]

Originally Posted by Mirage2LTurbo

Are you suggesting to block off the oil squirters that squirt on the pistons/cylinders?

Although a nice to have, they aren't necessary. They do help cool the piston and help longevity but plenty of people rip them out to increase pressure and flow to the spots that need them more.

[na90dsm]

anyoen got pics of this. and exactly what is where

[tmizer]

It's pretty "obvious" where the piston squirters are.

N/A engine blocks do not have squirters.

You'll have to "Search" for pictures of the front cover (oil pump) and what hole needs to be ground out... I've seen it posted somewhere... it'll make sense if you hold it in your hand and look for the hole where the regulator spring resides... then you should be able to figure out at least the direction you should be grinding the hole , if you cannot, then you probably shouldn't be :o .... oh never mind...

[na90dsm]

:laugh: yea i have a few n/a blocks here and i knwo they dont have squirters. i was more interested in the rest of the whoel deal. im gonna take a look at the blocks and the front casei have im my garage and take a peak . thanx

[tmizer]

Cool. Glad you understand , sometimes people get a little thick around here.

You'll be amazed at the amount of casting flash the factory leaves in the blocks. A whole lottttaaaa improvement to made with an air grinder in just a few minutes. Prep/cleaning will take longer than the actual grinding.

[na90dsm]

yea im gonan check it out. i assume your talkin abotu thew galleys in the block that are behind the front case in the block. i can see some rough stuff inthere. i will get a gasket kit befor ei send my block out and grind it down. i ge tit a bit now

i have my front case but im gonn aorder another welded for balance shaft removal. im gona be runnin 10:0:1 compression, a 100 shot and 8500 rpm shift point hopefully. the motrs gonna stay n/a. i kinda made it my goal to hit 250hp n/a without nitrous and add nitrous on top.

if i do this setup oil psi is a must at those rpm's

[tmizer]

Okay, I just happened to look at the oil pressure gauge at my AN line going into the engine:

197F coolant temp, 750 rpm idle, Mobile-1 10W30, pressure is 14 psi.

Front case just needs the balance shaft removal kit. That and maybe doing the pressure relief mod. No welding involved.

[espinelli]

Hey guys I ran across this High Volume oil pump for $250. Anyone here use this? Good or bad results? I'm a little skeptical. Click on the link below and scroll to the bottom of the page.

http://www.horsepowerhq.com/HTML/DSM/engineparts.htm

[burldude]

Originally Posted by espinelli

Hey guys I ran across this High Volume oil pump for $250. Anyone here use this? Good or bad results? I'm a little skeptical. Click on the link below and scroll to the bottom of the page.

http://www.horsepowerhq.com/HTML/DSM/engineparts.htm

I have a suspicion that it is just equipped with a stiffer bypass spring and maybe smoothed casting.

[na90dsm]

Originally Posted by tmizer

1. Smooth out the casting flash in the 2 front oil passages in the block (radius the main galley entry while you're at it).
2. Pull the squirters and block them.
3. Install balance shaft removal kit.
4. When installing pump gasket, cut the part that extends thru the oil passages. I believe I Hylomar'd the gasket to the pump, then used an Xacto knife to trim away any gasket that would reside in the passages).

I ended up with about "ONE MILLION" psi!!! :eek:

Actually, when it's warmed up, I'm probably around 20+ psi at idle. The cylinder head see's about 1/2 the block psi at idle. At anything above 2500rpm it's probably around 90 ~ 100 psi. And I shift around 8k rpm at the track without problems. No leaks, no blown filters. Using the Toga high volume pump, pumping thru an external cooler and large filter with ~8ft -8AN hose. So YMMV.

If your next question is "what thread size is the oil squirter?" I don't remember... ended up finding heat treated bolts and cutting their length to fit, using a lockwasher and liberal application of JB Weld on the threads before running them in.

Hope this helps.

when you radiused the hole how much did you radius it. i smoothed mine out a little but people are tellin me it wont help pressure. i did all of the above and will trim the gasket when i get to that point but i didnt radius it to much because i didnt wanna take to much out. how much of a radius did you put on it. heres a pic of what i did. lemme knwo how much more then this you went


detailed my oil passages. pics inside

[blue1]

When you clean the oil galleries you are not going to gain oil pressure you are going to make sure the oil pressure you have got (controlled by the bypass spring) gets to were it is suppose to go without restriction, by cleaning galleries the oil pressure will stay more constant throughout the whole engine. Who said you will have less pressure by the time it reaches the head? pressure will be there but the flow wont!! due to the restrictions all the way to the turbo.

[espinelli]

Originally Posted by burldude

I have a suspicion that it is just equipped with a stiffer bypass spring and maybe smoothed casting.

Actually, it isn't. I recently found out that the gears are of a different design and it actually does increase your oil pressure.

I shot Cragger @ SBR an email about this a while back and they verified its the real deal and I believe they are now selling them. Anyone doing a build up should look into this type of front case. Next time around I'll definitly be going that route.

[tmizer]

Typical DSM'er response,

:thumbdown
"Who said you will have less pressure by the time it reaches the head?"
:thumbdown

Answer: 2 gauges, one at the block and one at the head. You do realize there's a oil pressure regulator bolted into the head at the end of the galley fed from the block? And I've on occasion done the Bart Simpson rev the engine by hand and looked at both installed gauges, revving and saying "oil pressure goes up... oil pressure goes down...oil pressure at the block is X psi, at the head is 0.5X psi" Ignorance really is bliss....

Na90dsm: As far as type of radius, a high r/R (r=entry radius, R=bulk turning radius) is desired, and what it'll net in final pressure, it may actually net LESS pressure on the intererior gauge or a guage on this passage. Why? Look at the equations for head loss or minor head loss in a fluids book... regardless, from the images you posted elsewheres, you shouldn't have a flow rate problem at all, and I wouldn't be so concerned with pressure now, as the bearing gaps and head galley are what will now most closely determine oil pressure at this point, and not front oil passage friction or turning lossses from the sorry factory block finishishing.

...now make sure everything is VERY clean before you start reassembling....

[GRNDSM]

I have been running and advocating the use of two gauges for over 3 years now! As far as I am concerned, head IS the most important place to measure your oil pressure, because that is the last place that sees oil. If you oil pressure in the head, you have it everywhere else. You can’t say that about your stock location…

Another problem with stock location, it that it is before the filter and before the oil pressure relief valve. Oil pressure measurement at that point is almost meaningless…

Next, who said that we need MORE oil? Why are people looking at “high volume” pumps? The only explanation that I can think of is: “That is what they do for V8”…

Whenever we have a “build motor”, without balance shaft and squirters, we usually have TOO MUCH oil pressure! If anything, we need to do things that will REDUCE (not increase) our oil pressure at high rpms. That is where enlarging oil pressure relief valve comes into play. It is the same principle as porting your wastegate opening. When properly done, it will not have any effect at idle oil pressure but you will be much less likely to “overrun” your oil relief valve above 7000 rpms.

[espinelli]

Originally Posted by GRNDSM

Next, who said that we need MORE oil? Why are people looking at “high volume” pumps? The only explanation that I can think of is: “That is what they do for V8”…

Whenever we have a “build motor”, without balance shaft and squirters, we usually have TOO MUCH oil pressure! If anything, we need to do things that will REDUCE (not increase) our oil pressure at high rpms. That is where enlarging oil pressure relief valve comes into play. It is the same principle as porting your wastegate opening. When properly done, it will not have any effect at idle oil pressure but you will be much less likely to “overrun” your oil relief valve above 7000 rpms.

I see your point and I meant to say HIGH VOLUME and not HIGH PRESSURE in my previous post. Regardless, my point is that people should take it into consideration when doing a build up.

For example I think that would have been a great mod for my car because I'm not huge believer of blocking off the oil squirters on a street car even though I run forged pistons. Also, I've only elminated my front BS and the rear I had machinced and balanced if you will because I opted for the stubby shaft. So in my application I don't entirely agree with what your saying. Again, I think people should 'consider' it when doing a build up.

[scottsee]

thats bloody intresting. i've never thought of smoothing out the front 2 oil passages for better flow. im going to do that this week!! im building a 6bolt 4g63 to put into my 96 eclipse. the engiens going into the shop to get hot tanked, im deffently going to hit the grinder before it goes in!! great idea, great thread!

[GRNDSM]

>I see your point and I meant to say HIGH VOLUME and not HIGH PRESSURE in my previous post.

In this case, higher volume leads to high pressure because oil relief valve can not keep up with all that volume.


>thats bloody intresting. i've never thought of smoothing out the front 2 oil passages for
>better flow. im going to do that this week!!

I give up...

Or better yet, if for some strange reason you want higher pressure, you could always shim the spring in the oil relief valve to make it more difficult to open.

[na90dsm]

i only said it may effect it a hair, not like 5 psi or anything. maybe effect it by a psi. im not looking for tremendous amounts of oil because its pointless on a n/t block. has no squirters which will boost it, and block off bearings from the balance shaft removal will net me more then enough oil to do whatever i want.

i just did it to make sure everythign flows smoothly mainly, just to make sure the oil isnt disrupted by anything and flows nice and freely well as much as it can.

i think i started somethign bad here. i only did it for those 2 purposes, not to gain any pressure. itll give maybe , maybe 1psi.

[tmizer]

The oil pressure relief slot mod is a must. GRNDSM, can you post a link to that mod?

Now 4G63 head head oiling requirements are relatively low, hence the regulator at the head. When a 4G63 head was used at Purdue to operate a pulse detonation engine rig, the machinist, and a future coworker of mine ran into the oil pressure problem of all things. When I later asked them what they eventually ran for pressure, they seemed to recall 40 psi being a bad thing....so definitely enlarge that slot.

...which leaves main and rod bearings, which, ULTIMATELY determine oil pressure as their annular clearances with the crank being essentially orifices, critically controling oil pressure in the main galley. If the 0.0018~0.002 DSM clearances were increased slightly to say 0.003, that would drop a 100 psig main oil galley to 70-ish psi...if one were to build a "loose" engine for example

My reason for front oil galley porting, no squirters/bshafts, and better pump was two-fold:

1. Reliability.
2. Increased flow capacity for an external oil cooler/filter system which adds head loss.

Na90dsm, I thought we talked about enlarging this slot before? If you can do that galley, the slot is cake.

[Maglin]

Anyone have a pic of the Oil Press Bypass enlarged? I to just want to know the location. I haven't really looked at my oil pump. It on my garage floor atm so I'm going to look it over but I definitly am going to be doing some extensive polishing of the oil galleys and passages as much as possible before I put my motor together. I'll probably end up going through like 8 can's of cleaner after I'm done to ensure my block is totally clean.

[Suparata]

First of all there is no need for a higher volume or a higher pressure oil pump on a 4G6x since the stock flows “too much” at high RPM anyway so take care of the pressure relief valve instead.
Second the squirters do not open until you get to close to 40PSI anyway so what do you guys hope to achieve by eliminating one of the best thing the 6 bolt engines have? Sure as hell you won’t get any more pressure at idle and low RPM and trying to get “more pressure where is needed” at higher RPM argument does not stand since you should have close to 80PSI as soon as you go beyond 2500RPM even with the squirters in place. That is plenty where is needed.

Mitsubishi went through redesigning 3 times the “distribution” valve in the head and the one with the pressure relief valve was the first they dropped. Reason? There is only so much oil that can flow through a certain size hole. Which brings me to the next problem I have with what people try to do to “improve” oil pressure. You guys go through all sorts of troubles to improve oil delivery to the engine and then choke the system with external lines that are smaller than should be. While -8AN might be good for fuel delivery or transmission cooler, anything smaller than -10AN in the oil system is a restriction.

It is nice to have as high as possible oil pressure at idle but too much at higher engine loads is not so good for several reasons. Besides the load that the pump itself is subject to, the higher the pressure the hotter the oil will be making one of the most important things the oil does in an engine not as effective as it should be: cooling.

Bottom line, eliminating squirters and other “clever” things like that done to “raise” oil pressure is more than a waste of time: it is also a bad decision. Make sure you have the right clearances in the engine, use a good external oil cooler with adequate sized lines, modify the pressure relief valve and sit back and watch your engine being a very happy engine.

[Maglin]

I was looking at the oil galleys on the block. Why is their a restriction casted into the galleys?? the humps in both of them.. I can see removing them to increase oil flow but what are they their for... I've gone back and forth about the oil squiter removal... i'm using Forged Wesico pistons and don't have to have them... But at high boost levels you are really going to heat those pistons up... I'm probably just going to buy some new squirters and not worry about my pistons overheating and getting scored cause of it...

[Street Surgeon]

Oi, I'm not a mechanical engineer, nor am I a fantastic mechanic with years of experience under my belt, but removing the oil quirters under the pistons just sounds like a bad move. Can you get away without running them? Sure why not, but they're in place for a reason, and I'm positive that mechanical engineers collaborated with mechanics and they decided they should be there, and that's enough for me

On a side note... I bought a -10an oil return line for my 50trim, but the feed line (slowboyracing.com ss feed line) is deathly skinny :eek: should that be okay? I also bought an earls turbo oil filter / restrictor to keep superhigh oil pressure from blowin' that money up.

[espinelli]

Originally Posted by Street Surgeon

On a side note... I bought a -10an oil return line for my 50trim, but the feed line (slowboyracing.com ss feed line) is deathly skinny :eek: should that be okay? I also bought an earls turbo oil filter / restrictor to keep superhigh oil pressure from blowin' that money up.

1/2" or -10an oil return line is perfect for your return. The feed line should either be a -3AN or -4AN. Make sure you get yourself a oil restrictor if using a -4AN line. As for the Earls PRE filter, don't bother installing it. You'll be lucky if that thing will filter objects no smaller than the size of rocks. I believe that is a prefilter product. Basically something used before the oil goes through the oil filter.

If you want to re filter the oil @ the turbo, check out Mr Gasket or Golan (same product) and they have -4AN filters.

[Street Surgeon]

What's good for RACE ONLY vehicles that are used once an event, often times isn't so good for a streetcar that's daily driven.

This is the filter I picked up, I just wanted some extra insurance.