1gnt to turbo oil squirter question

[slopefunk]

heres the deal. Im rebuilding a 1gnt, but I am going to be running it with a turbo in 96 tsi. Just wanted to get everbody's, anybody's 2 cents about the lack of oil squirters. Im thinking I'll be fine considering ive driven nt blocks to a 150,000 plus. however I am planning on beating the piss out of my new engine when i get it done. so heres the setup. tell me if i can get away with the nt block

mighty max refurbed crank with resized mains
some new rod bearings got off ebay but never heard of them ( KING RACING SILICON COATED BEARINGS" these any good or should i stick with clevite???
new stock mitsu headgasket
new big butthole lifters( check out my other post I have major lifter question)
hks 272's ( I dont have yet )
new stock valve springs
8.8to1 forged pistons new rings
rc 550cc injectors
new stock main studs
arp rod bolts
arp head bolts
1mm ss valves
new stock oil pump
new stock water pump and thermo

Im thinking about using the stock 1g nt rods does anyone know if theres a difference from the 1g turbo rods and the 1g nt rods
thanx
using dsmlink to tune

later

 

[poorboyj]

I had a local machine shop, who deals mostly with V8's machine provisions for squirters in my NT block, $80 for the machining, $80 for the squirters. Only other problem with the NT block, is that it has no provisions for the knock sensor. MAke sure you address this before the install day

Jay

 

[slopefunk]

I thought the nt motor had place for the knock sensor I just have to tap it ill go look. I know nt ecu dont look for knock but its the same engine cast for the turbo and nt.

 

[slopefunk]

Also
Im looking for someone that has the setup Im going for I dont want to have oil squirters I just want to make sure it will be a safe setup. Im probly going to drive 2 or 3 days a week. Looking for 300hp maybe little more

 

[poorboyj]

Also
Im looking for someone that has the setup Im going for I dont want to have oil squirters I just want to make sure it will be a safe setup. Im probly going to drive 2 or 3 days a week. Looking for 300hp maybe little more

A lot of 4G64 guys run without squirters. Also, the blocks are NOT the same casting. the two I have had are different externally. Specifically on the firewall side where the Knock Sensor would go.

Jay

 

[mavisky]

i run no squirters and my nt block had a place for the knock sensor to screw right into.

 

[slopefunk]

hey thanx man thats all I needed to hear.

 

[Suparata]

All you’ve heard is that there are guys out there running without squirters and that doesn’t mean shit. Also the fact that 4G64s don’t have them doesn’t mean that it is ok without them. Show me a 4G64 block with 100000 miles on it that is in as good shape as a 4G63 turbo with squirters.
Squirters are not there only to “cool” the pistons. All the extra oil to the wrist pin and the cyl walls are extra benefits. A stock rod has .004”-.009” thrust play meaning that there is a limited amount of oil slung, splashed, thrown (call it whatever you like) on the cyl walls from the rod bearings. Take the squirters away and furthermore put some aftermarket rods that don’t have a provision for directing oil from the rod bearing towards the cyl walls like the stock rods do and than wonder: why is it that the engine got worn out faster than it should have.
Squirters are one of the best things 4G63 engines have and, if they work properly, there is no adverse result in using them. Machining for squirters should be a MUST.

 

[highpsi93tsi]

In heavy race applications (John Shepperd) You block the squirters for more pressure to where the oil REALLY needs to be. Squirters arent that important. Unless your building something for endurance or an engine you want to last 250K miles. 4G63s and both of what I just said dont blend. Have fun with it and blow it up. Thats what we do here! The people on this board on their 2nd or 3rd motor out number the people on the ORIGINAL motor. Block the squirters and watch the oil pressure increase, hey, mabye if they didnt use squirters these certain 95-99 Engines wouldnt be trying to force the crank out of the fvucking block!! (Crankwalk is an caused by oil starvation to the thrust bearing

 

[TD05HTalon]

here's a stupid question but i have to ask it - is the knock sensor mounted on the bung that is up near the top of the block on the back side close to the head? I have a turbo and non turbo 6 bolt block in the garage and they look identical. the only difference is that one bung - on the NT block it has a plug screwed into it.

 

[mavisky]

yea that's the spot

 

[TD05HTalon]

out of curiosity - what is the thread size and pitch for the knock sensor - as in what tap is needed to clean the threads out?

 

[NitrousBob]

I just tore down an N/T engine and there was very little wear on the engine and no oil squirters. I just use mobil 1. 252,000 miles I just took it out because I thought it was going to go. There was no evidence of anything going anywhere. I took this engine past 6grand many many times. I delivered pizza for a year and a half in a gs and it just took the beating day in day out 8hrs a day stop and go. Still has cross hatching in the cylinders. I dont plan on using them in the turbo engine either.

 

[highpsi93tsi]

Block the squirters. Simple, the engine need that oil at the bearings and the rockers more than the pistons. No other Domestic Turbo engine has them and they run the best. Block em. Its another mistake by mitsu.

 

[pinknuggit]

Also, more times than none, the squirter nozzle (1G) can break off. When I tore down my turbo block, two of my squirter nozzles were chillin in the oil pan. That motor had 212K miles.

When I tore down my nonturbo motor, it had 187k miles and the hatch was even better than on my turbo block. I ended up using the non turbo block in my motor buildup and I have my turbo block chillin in storage incase this motor fails.

 

[TD05HTalon]

i was going to use a turbo block for my 6 bolt swap but it was a piece of shit. it had several large cracks in it because both balance shafts had eaten their bearings and there was nothing left of them. the balance shafts becan slapping around in the block tearing it and themselves apart. 2 of the oil squirters had also broken off and another one was bent. i got an NT block and it was in much better shape so that's what i've used for my 6 bolt swap. I agree when people say oil squirters are a horrible design. they look good on paper but mitsubishi built them so small and flimsy that they end up doing more damage than good. Balance shafts are also a bad idea too.

 

[ThanatosG]

Wow im so glad i read this thread... when i had my engine block machined, it was so f'd up i had to purchase a block from the machine shop that did the work. on accident they ended up selling me a N/T block. after i got it back I took it to our body shop had it painted, went thru and cleaned every thread and made the entire block look blinging. then realized one day it was a NT block. I flipped out for a second until i made some phone calls. I got mixed opinions but overall most ppl eliminate them. or use an nt block, im going to look at it monday for the knock sensor location. cause i forget if i ever unplugged/cleaned the threads on that or not.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Just a few thoughts. People like shepard would not remove squirters to raise oil pressure. THose guys are all porting thier oil filter housings to get oil pressure back DOWN. At 9k plus rpm, you get what is basically oil pressure creep. The bypass doesnt flow enough and pressure get veyr high. The danger there of course is pumping up the lifters at high rpm and having a little valve to pston contact If guys like shepperd are removing the squirters, its most likely for other reasons.

I'm not sure why people are trying to come to any conclusions saying that the cross hatch on the NT block looked better than the hatch on the turbo block being from the squirters. Maybe its the substantial difference in cylinder pressures, temps, and other stresses that are not present in low HP NT motors. Just a thought.

It would be very difficult to try to prove that squirters are or are not necessary, and I wouldnt recomend people take a stand on one side or the other and preach it likes its gospel. Each person should do whatever he or she thinks is the right thing to do when building a motor, and not try to push it on everyone else when there is no real proof one way or the other (that I have seen).

 

[NitrousBob]

I have also noticed there is a hole drilled in the rod that shoots (or squirts) oil up on the exhaust side of the piston. I have seen these in 2.4 L GM quad 4 engines. I ran those normally aspirated w 12:1 compression. IMO the oil squirters were for cooling the pistons and in a racing application it adds up to parasitic aeration losses. (the oil is in the air making drag). And where you are using forged internals you have added protection.

 

[boostedinaz]

Wow alot of people saying generalizations with no proof to back it up. "2G's get crankwalk they have oil squiters, that must be why." 6 bolt have the same squiters and they have a ton less complaints about crankwalk. Not to mention with all the "knowledge" that has been show in this thread you would think that a cure for CW would be found.

They are there for more than just cooling the pistons. They are there to deliver more oil to a crtical part of the motor and that has been addressed already. If anyone has had a mechanical oil pressure gauge you will see that our motors make a ton of pressure and we dont need more. I aslo fail to see how an NT motor and a full race Shep motor have anything to do with a daily driven 4G63 turbo motor.

For the guy that said "just build it and replace it, people are on there 3rd motor" Well ignorance is bliss so you must be happy. Just becasue some people throw money at a car to "fix" a problem, instead of finding out why they are having constant motor failure is not good advice.

If you build somethign right the first time then that will be the only time. When I go to build my motor I will have them in and I will have it built right and I KNOW it will last for another 100K even driven hard with a large turbo on board. Its your car, time, and money so do with it what you will, but I would hate to do something more than once.

 

[na90dsm]

basically you can run no squirters in your bottom end but its not suggested because of oil pressure isues,

am i correct

 

[ThanatosG]

Well removing balance shafts also raises oil pressure to some extent. I've seen a couple of cars without shafts blow oil filters off the housing. easiest fix is drilling the release valve in the oil filter housing. i won't be running squirters or balance shafts, im going to modify mine just slightly. i have no choice with the squirters im just glad it isnt an unheard of thing to not run them with forged stuff.

 

[pinknuggit]

6 bolt have the same squiters and they have a ton less complaints about crankwalk.

I aslo fail to see how an NT motor and a full race Shep motor have anything to do with a daily driven 4G63 turbo motor.

No, the 6 bolt oil squirters are tapped into the main oil galley, with a nozzle that pokes up right below the edge of the cylinder wall.
A 7 bolt oil squirter feeds off of the surface right above the main bearing. It's nothing but a little check valve nozzle that points straight up and squirts straight up.
Two Totally different designs. The magnus crankwalk theory is that the check valve squirters on the 2G's will wear out and starve the main bearings from oil, which makes sense.

The whole reason people are talking about NT motors in relation to race motors is that the blocks are practically the same. They are the same foundation. The general consensus of people who don't know better will think that the NT motor is different, and is not able to handle the power of the turbo motor. I've offered my NT block to people who are building up a 4G63, and they refuse simply because its an NT block and that they think its weaker.

 

[boostedinaz]

No, the 6 bolt oil squirters are tapped into the main oil galley, with a nozzle that pokes up right below the edge of the cylinder wall.
A 7 bolt oil squirter feeds off of the surface right above the main bearing. It's nothing but a little check valve nozzle that points straight up and squirts straight up.
Two Totally different designs. The magnus crankwalk theory is that the check valve squirters on the 2G's will wear out and starve the main bearings from oil, which makes sense.

The whole reason people are talking about NT motors in relation to race motors is that the blocks are practically the same. They are the same foundation. The general consensus of people who don't know better will think that the NT motor is different, and is not able to handle the power of the turbo motor. I've offered my NT block to people who are building up a 4G63, and they refuse simply because its an NT block and that they think its weaker.

But again, they see alot less strain that a turbo motor especially when modded, so why the comparison. Most car comapnies will not put time into R&D then testing and finally production of something unless they feel it will have a noticable impact on what they are looking for.

I did go out and look at my buddies junked 2G block and I can see that I was incorrect. However, the points that people are trying to make really dont warrant the removal of the squirters. Ill have more oil pressure. How many of these people have had an engine fail due to a lack of oil pressure, probably none. How many have had an engine failure due to a broken off squirter, again, probably none. They are giving problems that may never come up as reasons for tossing them, yet they dont give and thought to the benefits that have been pointed out. They are set on doing and more power to them, but I have a good fealing that the longevity of that motor will be alot less than one with squiters.

 

[pinknuggit]

I see the point you're trying to make. Why use something for what it wasn't intended for, right? (n/t blocks).

But even though the two engines are different, they are both still a 4g63. Apparently, the only thing mitsubishi varied in the non-turbo engines and the turbo ones were the pistons, intake cam, oil squirters, and the turbo system. It makes sense to think that the oil squirteres are there for a reason, and they are, but they are not necessarily required. There are plenty of factory turbocharged engines from other manufacturers that successfully make reliable power and will last forever, without using the squirters.

Personally, I think to rely on the oil squirters in a 4g63 to help your engine live a long life just doesn't make sense. If you have a built motor that makes lots of power and turns high revs, it will generally live a short life. That's just what happens whenever you have an engine that runs high cylinder pressure and has high piston velocity. I belive that an engine's logetivity is reliant on the way you treat an engine. There have been many people who have had awesome results with using N/T blocks in their race motor setups, and I personally know someone with those results. The turbo and n/t blocks are the same thing, so why would one assume that one is weaker than the other? My turbo block had a bunch of stripped out threads and needed some work, but my n/t block was perfect, so I'm using my n/t block in my motor buildup right now.

The whole magnus crankwalk theory has had an Extensive amount of testing behind it. It's not just a few people declaring what they think is the problem. You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't think it's proper to discard someone's extensive research on something and form an alternate hypothesis without doing some first hand research. Magnus motor sports is known for building engines, and they have documented research on their crankwalk theory. I don't have much first hand work on the topic myself, but looking at their research and theory, I can say that i'm more inclinded to belive them over others. I don't see documented research on crankwalk from Boostededinaz Motorsports.