IS IT TRUE?STOCK HEAD WITH 3 ANGLE VALVE JOB??

[racer]

Is it true that the stock 4g63 head comes with 3 angle valve job???
I have 93 N/T(4G63) and Im going to machine the head and I want to do valve job for more power since im N/T and this is one of the few ways to get some more serious number in power gain,so what do you guys think?
What angle should I go for: 3 angle( if it doesnt come with from factory),5 angle????????What kinda gain is posible from valve job?
I would realy realy apreciate your help guys,plz respond.THANK YOU.

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by racer
Is it true that the stock 4g63 head comes with 3 angle valve job???
I have 93 N/T(4G63) and Im going to machine the head and I want to do valve job for more power since im N/T and this is one of the few ways to get some more serious number in power gain,so what do you guys think?
What angle should I go for: 3 angle( if it doesnt come with from factory),5 angle????????What kinda gain is posible from valve job?
I would realy realy apreciate your help guys,plz respond.THANK YOU.

Heads DO come with 3 angle seats from the factory but that was long time ago. Now , after so many miles, those 3 angles are "tired" and need to be re-machined along with refreshing the valve guides.
Talk to your machinist and he will help you choose the right thing for you.
Check this thread for more info:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90158

 

[Defiant]

Once you get past a Briggs & Stratton, essentially all motors have at least a 3-angle. It's how you make a seat. Have your machinist explain it to you, there's really not much magic to it. A "5-angle" just gives a smoother transition across the seat. I don't know what's so effing magic about it, I've always "blended" my ports so that there's NO "angles". But that mystical method seems to have been left by the wayside.

 

[candela]

lil' off topic..but damn Defiant 6k+ posts you whore

 

[racer]

80% of defiants replays are REALY hard for me to get what he's talking about.Not that he aint right or some,it is just that he always uses some wierd definishons and transcriptions wich I have hard time geting into (Im not even an american).
No one actualyaid what range of HP gain is posible with let say 5 angel on N/A 4g63 ?

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by Defiant
... essentially all motors have at least a 3-angle. ... . A "5-angle" just gives a smoother transition across the seat. I don't know what's so effing magic about it, I've always "blended" my ports so that there's NO "angles". But that mystical method seems to have been left by the wayside.

Well... almost all of them have 3-angle, some have only 1 or 2( take some Mercedes for example) . Multiple angles do not give a "smoother" transition rather a radius seat do that. But you might not necessarily be after a smooth transition over the seats. Having multi-angles increases velocity helping to get a better mixture and radiused help when changes of direction occur.
Now there are many ways of "mixing and matching" radiused and angled seats for each application and you can be sure that the OEM did not design the heads with 500+ HP in mind nor did they take care of every little detail when they machined them.
So having an "improved" valve job done along with other improvements performed on heads are after all cheap HP since you have to recondition them anyway to have them do what they are supposed to.
Mitch.

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by racer
80% of defiants replays are REALY hard for me to get what he's talking about.Not that he aint right or some,it is just that he always uses some wierd definishons and transcriptions wich I have hard time geting into (Im not even an american).

Thank you, I enjoy being enigmatic. It better camouflages my mistakes.

No one actualyaid what range of HP gain is posible with let say 5 angel on N/A 4g63 ?

You've already got two intakes, and that does much more than valve magic will. With a lucky combination of angles and velocities, there _might_ be another eight horses in that pasture.

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by candela
lil' off topic..but damn Defiant 6k+ posts you whore

And not really all that much whoring, either. Chris pays me by the word.

 

[racer]

only 8HP man that aint shit,bah.
Ok I heard someting like " COMPETITION VALVES" is there such thing and what is that mean?

 

[sophat34]

competition valves, well that word is kind of like a sales trap. oooh oooh competition valves must have. nto a really big deal. stock heads (stock valves) have gone to great speeds, but having some ligher weight ones, bigger ones, or ones that will stand up to the heat are nice. the sodium filled ones for the exhaust side are nice, stock on the new evo. stainless steel seem to be common for after market stuff. if you must have the lightest valves, as far as I know that means titanium and those are in the area of 160$ each.
later
S

 

[racer]

hum Im still comfused and I still dont understend what is "COMPETITION VALVES" .From yr explanation it seem that "competition valves"=light weight valves!What gains are posible with those?

 

[Defiant]

Higher profit for the sellers.

You're not into a tuning range where valve work is going to gain you enough to worry about.

 

[KFT0001]

Lighter weight valves help to reduce valve float as your rpms increase.

 

[Suparata]

Higher profit for the sellers.

...competition valves, well that word is kind of like a sales trap. oooh oooh competition valves must have. nto a really big deal.

Higher profit? Well... yes and no. While it may be higher profit for most vendors out there who are selling whatever they can make a profit on , it is not the case of an Engine Rebuilder who not only have a responsibility on how the valves perform but they also have to include in those profits the price of "reconditioning" of those valves to ensure that they are within specs before installed.
Bottom line: High Performance valves have many advantages over stock valves like better flow, better thermal properties, less wear and so many others. Just think about valves that don't break when they get smacked : how much money and effort get saved?
You don't NEED them but you WANT them. It is not about how many HP will they give you by themselves it is about how much more they are capable of, especially oversized ones which allow for a much better geometry of the seats.

 

[racer]

well im interested in how much HP are they going to give me by themselves because im N/A and Im not planing on going anything like NITROS or boost so i just need some 20 extra HP with out going for big upgrades.

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by racer
well im interested in how much HP are they going to give me by themselves because im N/A and Im not planing on going anything like NITROS or boost so i just need some 20 extra HP with out going for big upgrades.

Maybe I was not clear enough but what I was trying to say is that by just installing High Perf. valves without a good "valve job" being performed will give you only so much HP.
You seem to be obsessed by numbers but nobody with common sense will quote you an exact number. One thing is for sure: since you don't have a turbo that can be set to pump a few extra pounds of boost at it, you need all the "big upgrades" you can get to have more air(/fuel) going through your engine .
Your goals of 20HP more are obtainable with a good intake, a good exhaust and a set of oversized valves together with a "competition" valve job/port work. This is the least you can do(it will give you probably more than 20HP) and like I said it is "cheap HP" since you have to recondition your cyl head anyway. Yes there are other things you can do too like cams, pistons and others but that's up to you and your wallet. Fix what you must fix first and upgrade things while doing it and then if you still have money to spend go for the rest.Mitch.

 

[Rick@AP]

Let me help you out as I have a good bit of experience with the NA 4g63 motors.

Don't waste money on head work with the NA motor. By the time you spend enough money on the head to really make a difference you probably won't have enough money to do anything else. Instead, by yourself a set of Crower 64413 cams, a set of adjustable cam gears, a 4g64 crank, Eagle rods, Weisco stroker pistons, Walbro 190lph fuel pump, 550cc injectors and a Greddy E-manage system (with injector and ignition harnesses). This combination should be more than enough to keep you happy for awhile.

 

[racer]

Rick@AP u are talking some intresting stuff there huh?I can get my head done for like 300 $ and u are ofering some work that will cost me prolly 5000-up $ wich I do not wana spend for N/A 93 eclipse.Tx anyways

 

[Rick@AP]

You won't pay $300 for any head work on a NA motor that will make a real difference. You will probably end up paying more like $1k-$1.2k especially if you don't know you need or what to ask for. Also, you should not pay anything close to $5k for what I suggested. On another note you don't have to buy all the parts at once. What I gave you was an idea of where to go and what you really should consider spending time and money.

Listen, the only reason I responded was because it is totally obvious that you don't have a clue concerning the NA 4g63. BUT, how you spend, or in this case waste your money, is really your business. I've built several NA motors and have had quite a bit of good luck with the results. I only offered you suggestions based upon that experience. HOWEVER, as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Good Luck!

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by Rick@AP
You won't pay $300 for any head work on a NA motor that will make a real difference. You will probably end up paying more like $1k-$1.2k especially if you don't know you need or what to ask for. Also, you should not pay anything close to $5k for what I suggested. On another note you don't have to buy all the parts at once. What I gave you was an idea of where to go and what you really should consider spending time and money.

Listen, the only reason I responded was because it is totally obvious that you don't have a clue concerning the NA 4g63. BUT, how you spend, or in this case waste your money, is really your business. I've built several NA motors and have had quite a bit of good luck with the results. I only offered you suggestions based upon that experience. HOWEVER, as the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Good Luck!

Well you would be able to make him drink if the water you are leading him to wouldn't be so dark colored and the road you are taking wouldn't be so long and twisted.
He has to rebuild at least his Cyl Head from what he is saying so what do you recommend him to do : fix his problem first and make sure he has a good foundation to build on or to just skip that part (patch it) and go to the next floor?
Mitch.

 

[racer]

hehe nice one.Yea I just have to refresh the head cuz the car consumes oil (expecialy on city driving).I have a friends and i got a deal for 300 $ refreshing the head with valve job.I do not wana spend more money.I'll either sell the car in a year or make it pizza car.I asked cuz since im going to take head off anyways why not make me some extra power.It wont hert me right .Im not trying to make power with this car because it is not posible to make much with out going turbo or Nitro.

 

[Suparata]

Originally posted by racer
hehe nice one.Yea I just have to refresh the head cuz the car consumes oil (expecialy on city driving).I have a friends and i got a deal for 300 $ refreshing the head with valve job.I do not wana spend more money.I'll either sell the car in a year or make it pizza car.I asked cuz since im going to take head off anyways why not make me some extra power.It wont hert me right .Im not trying to make power with this car because it is not posible to make much with out going turbo or Nitro.

You might need more than just "refreshing" the head whatever that might be. What did he recommend you to do about the valve guides?
Mitch.

 

[racer]

ok I just want the head to be cleaned(wich means everything that the head include),5 angel valve job and new valve seals.All that will cost me 250$.BUT IF there is a someting bad,someting that isnt as it should,it'll be eather replaced or reworked and extra charges will applay.NO PORTING,NO aftermarket parts.

 

[Defiant]

Read through this about "5-Angle" valve jobs:

http://realbig.com/detomaso/1998-10/102.html

 

[racer]

so just get the safe 3 angle I gess ?