1G MAP sensor conversion (Speed Density)

[krustindumm]

Is it at all possable to convert to a MAP sensor using the stock ECU?

Theoretically it should be, just with a new fuel map, but has it been done?

[edit]For a 1G[/edit]

 

[brads]

Originally posted by krustindumm
Is it at all possable to convert to a MAP sensor using the stock ECU?

Theoretically it should be, just with a new fuel map, but has it been done?

[edit]For a 1G[/edit]

Theoretically, you would need more than just a new fuel map. Most pressure sensors are analog, our MAF is frequency based, so the input signal conditioning won't match up and you wouldn't be able to read it in. That is the one of many hardware issues that would have to be resolved before you found that the software isn't set up properly to do the math for a speed density based system since it is designed around a mass airflow system.

Brad

 

[krustindumm]

Damn. I hate MAF's.

What's the output of the GM MAF, I thought it was analog?

The fuel map should work, isn't it just

_|_MAF_
R|
P| pulse width
M|

because MAP systems are:

_|_MAP_
R|
P| pulse width
M|

no extra calculations. Should actually be less since you don't need to calculate pressure from flow and RPM.

 

[kpt4321]

Stock fuel maps are actually airflow by rpm, not MAF by RPM, some calculations go into the MAF's input to find the true mass-flow before they go to the map.

In order to use a MAP based system, you need to have the MAP, RPM, and then you need to make a table of approximate VE's, and you have to program the ECU to do all of these things.

If you know how to program these ECU's, then go for it!

 

[krustindumm]

Not these, but Honda ECU's. Would be easier to just put in a standalone. I have a SDS system, but I didn't want to use it.

 

[Drifte]

So, no way will it work? I didn't want to have to run the sds but MAFs are so stupid. Anyone know everything, so they can make this easier?

 

[DSMJim]

Yes. This very item is currently in the works and I will be beta testing a unit from a guy local to me here in the spring. It's a chip in the ECU and a map sensor. It has already been tested and working on a DSM local to me makes a little over 300whp and he picked up a good gain after the MAP conversion and dyno tuning. How much I don't know.

My car will be a resale version pilot so everybody will get to see how it is with my car before it's for sale. Sorry I can't give the info on who is making it (no not Magnus) or any more info other then that.

What it will do is make the GM/Ford MAF setups obsolete and completely useless and do it for a lot less money. (those company's that invested in the MAF setups are gonna be pissed ..)

Anyways I'm sure there's going to be lots of pissed off people wanting to yell at me, and say their MAF is better and we'll believe it when we see it etc etc.. That's ok cause I'm not a believer as of yet either. However the guy making this stuff is a certified genius, owns a dyno locally and has done a lot of crazy stuff already, so if he pulls another one off it's going to be a huge bonus for us. I'm waiting with much anticipation, trust me.

 

[set3422]

Originally posted by krustindumm
Is it at all possable to convert to a MAP sensor using the stock ECU?

Theoretically it should be, just with a new fuel map, but has it been done?

[edit]For a 1G[/edit]

VPC

 

[Drifte]

Yes. This very item is currently in the works and I will be beta testing a unit from a guy local to me here in the spring. It's a chip in the ECU and a map sensor. It has already been tested and working on a DSM local to me makes a little over 300whp and he picked up a good gain after the map conversion and dyno tuning. How much I dont know.

####ing sweet!

So you rechip the ECU (just the EPROM, not like a seperate board added in, right?), and wire up a MAP sensor? I would guess that the EGR temp input would be used, since it has an A/D convertor (learned from the ecimulti.com board ).

A kit with a chip to do that would be sweet, especially if injector size was optional.

MAP > MAF

Any idea when that will be released?

 

[1fast4door]

Originally posted by DSMJim


What it will do is make the GM/Ford maf setups obsolete and completely useless and do it for a lot less money. (those company's that invested in the maf setups are gonna be pissed ..)

I'm not bashing this idea/product, however, a MAFT is like what $199 and the GM MAF is $100 new, 30-50 used?? So when you say "alot less money" what does that mean?

 

[Bastard1g]

Has anyone heard an update on that chip and map sensor mod?

 

[Drifte]

Originally posted by Bastard1g
Has anyone heard an update on that chip and map sensor mod?

ditto

 

[DSMJim]

Originally posted by 1fast4door
I'm not bashing this idea/product, however, a MAFT is like what $199 and the GM MAF is $100 new, 30-50 used?? So when you say "alot less money" what does that mean?

So it's like $399 for parts plus you need to buy intercooler pipes or mess around with yours. You could spend another $100 on pipe mods or new upper IC pipe. So your at $500.

This will be considerably less, much easier to install and not so ugly looking under the hood. (not trying to bash but it looks nasty to me and thats my opinion. respect my authorita.. )

When it's ready, don't worry I'll let everybody know cause it will be running on my car and I'll be reporting the outcome to everybody. It will likely not be posted in this thread cause it could be spring. Just keep your eyes open here, i'll make it readily apparent when it's done.

 

[brads]

Originally posted by DSMJim
So it's like $399 for parts plus you need to buy intercooler pipes or mess around with yours. You could spend another $100 on pipe mods or new upper IC pipe. So your at $500.

This will be considerably less, much easier to install and not so ugly looking under the hood. (not trying to bash but it looks nasty to me and thats my opinion. respect my authorita.. )

If it is a true speed density conversion as you claim, it will require a pressure sensor, and an intake air temp sensor, correct? And it will require some way to compensate for an engines VE, since adding cams and things like that will result in very different fuel requirements at the same pressure and temp readings. In order to make this work, you will have to rewrite a pretty good chunk of the stock ECU code AND some way to change the VE table in the ECU whenever you change the engine (it's doable, just would add even more to the ECU code project). Either that or have an external box that converts the MAP and IAT signals (along with the VE calibration) into a fake airmeter signal like the VPC does. Which would add a lot to the cost, but make it safer since you could store your modified VE tables in nonvolatile memory so that it doesn't disappear when the ECU is reset.

Then you will need some way to mount the MAP and IAT, so that will add to the cost just like you were saying the GM MAF has an extra piping cost. And you will probably want to get rid of the stock intake pipe and stock MAF just like you would if its a GM MAF.

It won't be as cheap as you think. 2 sensors, harness for the sensors, method of mounting them, intake piping, + either a LOT of time rewriting code, or a new hardware device, neither of which the person will want to give away.

Brad

 

[1fast4door]

Originally posted by DSMJim
So it's like $399 for parts plus you need to buy intercooler pipes or mess around with yours. You could spend another $100 on pipe mods or new upper IC pipe. So your at $500.

This will be considerably less, much easier to install and not so ugly looking under the hood. (not trying to bash but it looks nasty to me and thats my opinion. respect my authorita.. )

When it's ready, don't worry I'll let everybody know cause it will be running on my car and I'll be reporting the outcome to everybody. It will likely not be posted in this thread cause it could be spring. Just keep your eyes open here, i'll make it readily apparent when it's done.

$199 (MAFT)+$100(MAF)=$299. That is for a complete Karmen MAF to hotwire MAF conversion in a draw thru setup. I will be interested to see how you will be able to save alot of money over this.

 

[DSMJim]

Originally posted by 1fast4door
$199 (MAFT)+$100(MAF)=$299. That is for a complete Karmen MAF to hotwire MAF conversion in a draw thru setup. I will be interested to see how you will be able to save alot of money over this.

Your obviously not reading what I posted. I couldn't really give a shit, and I don't feel like explaining or argueing about it. It's not my product nor am I'm not making money off it.

When it's done you can see it on my car, look at the price and judge for yourself when you have all the information. You know didly squat about it now so giving any type of arguement is compeltly stupid and pointless because you have ABSOLUTLY no idea what it is or consists of. So it could be $1 for all you know.

When we have a completly product, results and price you can argue about it then, otherwise I am not responding to this thread again about it.

 

[Drifte]

If it is a true speed density conversion as you claim, it will require a pressure sensor, and an intake air temp sensor, correct?

GM 3 bar and grab a IAT off of almost any car.

And it will require some way to compensate for an engines VE, since adding cams and things like that will result in very different fuel requirements at the same pressure and temp readings. In order to make this work, you will have to rewrite a pretty good chunk of the stock ECU code AND some way to change the VE table in the ECU whenever you change the engine(its doable, just would add even more to the ECU code project).

Check out the EFI multi site. They are trying to integrate some other car's speed density calculations to save on coding time. It is only a 32k (I think) chip, there is not that much stuff in it. Speed desity systems are fairly flexible with modifications. It will require tunning, but mild tunning can be corrected with a AFC, then converted and burned onto the chip. AFC would be a temporary device, used only for mild corrections.

Either that or have an external box that converts the MAP and IAT signals(along with the VE calibration) into a fake airmeter signal like the VPC does. Which would add a lot to the cost, but make it safer since you could store your modified VE tables in nonvolatile memory so that it doesn't disappear when the ECU is reset.

piggy back hacks are stupid (ie: MAFT) Large corrections mess with not only fuel delivery but also timing.

Then you will need some way to mount the MAP and IAT, so that will add to the cost just like you were saying the GM MAF has an extra piping cost.

MAP mounts to the firewall, gets the signal from a vacuum hose. IAT takes a simple 3 hole flange.

And you will probably want to get rid of the stock intake pipe and stock MAF just like you would if its a GM MAF.

The charge piping is much simpler to make. You could do it w/o replacing any stock piece, but the filter to turbo pipe sucks, so why not replace it.

--------------------------------------------
[edit] this is krustindumm, i used the wrong s/n by mistake
--------------------------------------------

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by DSMJim
So it's like $399 for parts

That's some awesome math.

So, if you buy a pressure sensor for 40 bucks, and a temp sensor for 40, this new system will cost.... 325 dollars, right?

Originally posted by brads
If it is a true speed density conversion as you claim, it will require a pressure sensor, and an intake air temp sensor, correct? And it will require some way to compensate for an engines VE, since adding cams and things like that will result in very different fuel requirements at the same pressure and temp readings. In order to make this work, you will have to rewrite a pretty good chunk of the stock ECU code AND some way to change the VE table in the ECU whenever you change the engine(its doable, just would add even more to the ECU code project). Either that or have an external box that converts the MAP and IAT signals(along with the VE calibration) into a fake airmeter signal like the VPC does. Which would add a lot to the cost, but make it safer since you could store your modified VE tables in nonvolatile memory so that it doesn't disappear when the ECU is reset.

Then you will need some way to mount the MAP and IAT, so that will add to the cost just like you were saying the GM MAF has an extra piping cost. And you will probably want to get rid of the stock intake pipe and stock MAF just like you would if its a GM MAF.

It won't be as cheap as you think. 2 sensors, harness for the sensors, method of mounting them, intake piping, + either a LOT of time rewriting code, or a new hardware device, neither of which the person will want to give away.

Brad

Good to see you here Brads. At least someone knows how this works.

Do any of you other guys know how the stock ECU code works? Don't worry, you don't have to answer that. I know you don't.

You can't just "change a couple things" and have it run MAP. In order to be able to calculate the mass flow of the motor, you need to build a totally different fuel map which indexes IPW by MAP and RPM, or you need to build a secondary ECU program which will take in temp and pressure information, factor in VE which you need to program yourself (already have a problem there), and then allow you to tune it. Then, it has to solve for mass flow, create an injector pulsewidth from that, and THEN it needs to convert to Hz so that it can still use the stock tables for A/F ratio changes.

THEN, you have to dig around in the ECU code and find every occurrence of the stock MAF signal, and change the way it works to work with MAP. This is way more than you think; fuel trims, fuel cut, accel enrich, open loop/closed loop switching, etc.

So, you're stuck either doing about a million ECU changes that nobody, including TMO or Jeff O, has been able to figure out how to do, or you're writing your own program which does exactly what the VPC does. Yeah, one guy should have a blast writing and testing for that.

And we all know how cheap the VPC is.

I'll believe it when I see a car running with it, and hear about how he's dealt with all of these problems.

 

[Drifte]

so no updates...dang

 

[set3422]

well here's what I found in Malaysia:

http://www.my-acoustic.com/Car/ECU/ECUskleow/ECUskleow.htm

Originally posted by Drifte
so no updates...dang