New setup finalized... I think

[MNGSX]

From PTE

I was thinking T3/T4 but now thinking

SCM51 "bolt on" I'll just port match the exhaust mani to the gasket match on the head and the TC flange to the PTE turbine housing. Take off the step and hog it out unitll it matches perfectly.

From Bosch Motorsports

"Indy" Blue injectors

HFP01 Fuel pump

HPR03 Adj FPR

From Autronic

PNP ECU

Which likely means the T-too small is going back in untill I get all the other parts in.

It would be a waste to run the 56 trim at stock boost so I'll wait untill the fuel supply and ECU can deliver.

I'll use a WB o2 and controller as well.. I have'nt picked the controller out yet.

 

[Libila]

sounds like fun

 

[MNGSX]

I found out that the first injectors I was looking at will work just fine and found a place selling them for just $49.00 each. So bosch high speed 1700cc alcohol injectors for just $196 a set.

 

[TRBOTSI]

Another daydreamer..buy some parts rather than trying to impress everyone with your little list.....

 

[MNGSX]

Listen sparky.

When It's dialed in and I go to my first shoot out you are more than welcome to line up in the other lane

I personally talked the the actual designer of my replacement ECU as to using these injectors.

Did you know you actually select these injectors via part # in the ECU setup?

Bosch 280-150-839

Here is the stinking link for the injectors!

http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/product_cart.htm

Which I'm f&cking buying tommarow when I'm done shipping the parts I'm selling.


Then I'm getting on the horn for my new plug wires.

If it will make you happy I'll take pics of the injectors and post that.

 

[MNGSX]

By the way people

They also have a pretty cool fuel rail on special right now.

A bolt in high flow rail with spacers and your choice of -6 -8 or -10 an connections.

A nice price on that too!

 

[DSMu4ia]

Must be like those cool Venom / Holley Rails that are the same thing as a stock 1g FR eh?

I'd love to see pics of you gasket matching that exhaust manifold too.

 

[Ben K]

You kill me Tony.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by DSMu4ia
Must be like those cool Venom / Holley Rails that are the same thing as a stock 1g FR eh?

I'd love to see pics of you gasket matching that exhaust manifold too.

http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/images/101-0128_IMG_2.JPG

The bottom of the rail looks different.

I have a 1g rail here and a 2g. It's a bit different.

 

[autronicDSM]

Originally posted by MNGSX
Listen sparky.

When It's dialed in and I go to my first shoot out you are more than welcome to line up in the other lane

I personally talked the the actual designer of my replacement ECU as to using these injectors.

Did you know you actually select these injectors via part # in the ECU setup?

Bosch 280-150-839

Here is the stinking link for the injectors!

http://www.fuelinjectorclinic.com/product_cart.htm

Which I'm f&cking buying tommarow when I'm done shipping the parts I'm selling.


Then I'm getting on the horn for my new plug wires.

If it will make you happy I'll take pics of the injectors and post that.

You don't select those by part #, you have to enter setting for your injector or you can select couple of popular models from the list and you still have to enter a flow rate for the fuel pressure you will be running. What's the name of the designer?

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by DSMu4ia

I'd love to see pics of you gasket matching that exhaust manifold too.

It's just like doing this except obviously with a exhaust manifold and exhaust manifold gasket.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58326

No big deal.

The turbine housing flange on the manifold just gets done with the turbine housing gasket.

I'll have to see or ask if the turbine housing is gasket matched or not. If so just matching the manifold side to the gasket is all that is needed.

I guess I'll do a tech article on it

I did'nt do my intake manifold since I'm planning on getting a forrestor, magnus or welding my own 6" tapered runner.

I like to DIY.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by MNGSX


The turbine housing flange on the manifold just gets done with the turbine housing gasket.

I guess I could ask my buddy to chuck up the manifold on the sunnen for the turbine flange porting. It would produce a very round, straight and symetrical port job with a nice finish.

 

[DSMu4ia]

Ok, you didn't get my sarcasm.

Exhaust manifold gasket, is WAY larger than the standard ports on a 1g/2g exhaust manifold. Unless you have one of the OLD OLD OLD school gaskets, you will look quite silly once realize how big you will be hogging that manifold out. So you will lose a ton of velocity, and will only be able to carry those huge ports a few inches into the runners.

Also, all the aftermarket fuel rails are the same size or VERY close to the size of a 1g rail. Only benefits were ease of adaptation when adding aftermarket FPR's. Now with bolt on solutions, this is a thing of the past. Why settle for a shitty designed, shitty fitting, leaking, POS, fuel rail, when you could save $150 and have one that does the same job.

Now let me ask you something..

You would think a person of your stature, who is planning on running alcohol in a DSM, would already have done all this research, and would be not be trying some back-@sswards setup.

Just stick to whats proven. It's easier and cheaper that way.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by DSMu4ia
Ok, you didn't get my sarcasm.

It is sometimes hard to tell the BS-ers from the friendly razzers around here. Sorry

Exhaust manifold gasket, is WAY larger than the standard ports on a 1g/2g exhaust manifold. Unless you have one of the OLD OLD OLD school gaskets, you will look quite silly once realize how big you will be hogging that manifold out. So you will lose a ton of velocity, and will only be able to carry those huge ports a few inches into the runners.

Only going into the manifold a little ways is better for flow than leaving the edge their to induce turbulance. A short taper is better than an abrubt down step in diameter.

Also, all the aftermarket fuel rails are the same size or VERY close to the size of a 1g rail.

I have one so I should keep it and not sell it,

Only benefits were ease of adaptation when adding aftermarket FPR's. Now with bolt on solutions, this is a thing of the past. Why settle for a shitty designed, shitty fitting, leaking, POS, fuel rail, when you could save $150 and have one that does the same job.

I'll need bolt on AN connections on the ends of the rail. The bolt on FPRs may not be up to this task. If you know of a link to really high flow bolt on inlet and adj FPR connections please give me the link.

Now let me ask you something..

You would think a person of your stature, who is planning on running alcohol in a DSM, would already have done all this research, and would be not be trying some back-@sswards setup.

Just stick to whats proven. It's easier and cheaper that way.

Let me ask you something.

Instead of taking a negative argumentative track from the get go why did'nt you just say.... Here how is to do it cheaper and better.

If I had it all figured out perfectly I would'nt be looking for feedback


1, So what should I buy to go from a high flow fuel filter to the rail

Link please.

2. What should I buy to go to the adj FPR?

Link please.


I though boards like this is where we go to help each other out not bicker.

If you know a better way lay it out on the table. I just might return the favor in the future!

 

[autronicDSM]

If you must get a njew fuel rail build your own (dash 10 one) http://209.238.198.80/EFI/EFiFuelRailExtrusion.html then use 10AN lines. You will need them. I remember long time ago somebody posted on Talon Digest that to use E98 you need like 50% more then gasoline. Don't quote me on that but that's what I remember. Also I'd recommend these for your fittings http://www.fluidcontrol.net/pages/adapters.html

 

[MNGSX]

Now that is what I was looking for!

Originally posted by autronicDSM


You don't select those by part #, you have to enter setting for your injector or you can select couple of popular models from the list and you still have to enter a flow rate for the fuel pressure you will be running. What's the name of the designer?

We discussed this in PM but for the group.


In the NEW software
The last three #'s of the part # are selected IE Bosch 839. You do also need to input fuel pressure your running them at but it has the response characteristics of the injectors in memory already. Autronic tested many common injectors to simplify setup.


I pulled the FPR off both my 1g rail and the 2g rail. The ID is ~16mm at the ends and about ~14-14.5mm ID down the middle.

The aftermarket rail is 11/16" (17.5mm) ID across it's length. So it's really 3mm bigger ID.

But I want to go bigger than the rail just in case I find out that factory rails really can't keep up.

The real restriction on the factory system comes from the FPR it's inlet is only 6mm. The stock filter and banjo bolts suck for flow too.

The feed from the external tank pump to the inline filter will be large ss hardline with NPT fitings . I have a line bender that big and a flare tool. 10 AN ss flex to the rail. I'm thinking ss hardline for the return line too. I'll match the feed size. It will have SS flex between the rail and FPR. I'll mount the FPR to the firewall so I''ll only need one flex line to go to the rail.

The 3/4" may seem like overkill but a pump mfg tech told me to go very big so the pump only has to fight mostly the FPR not the feed or return lines.

He gave me flow rates for AN sizes -6 thru -12AN and -10 AN will flow more GPH than I'll ever need. The overkill will allow the pump to run cooler. The actual pump head not the motor. They heat fuel to a certain degree. Much like a turbos compressor. Eliminating restriction keeps the fuel cooler. They actually had stupid people with very undersized return lines heating fuel to it's boiling point when runing high flow external pumps.

Most Adj-FPR's have atleast one pressure gauge tap. If it has two I'll put the fuel gage sender for the cockpit gauge on one and a schrader valve on the other. The schrader valve is so I can set base FP via the gauge I keep in my toolbox. If it has one I'll just use a t with the schrader valve on one end and the sender the other. Actually I think I know where I can get a 1/8 npt fitting schrader valve with a female 1/8 npt tap on the side of its body between the valve and its 1/8 NPT male fitting. I think the local CAT service shop has one.

 

[DSMu4ia]

Buschur has a nice 100% bolt on fuel regular solution.

RSMotorsport.net has the bolt on -AN fuel fittings. You would just need one, and some -AN hose, the AFPR, and a few fittings to make it work. It ends up costing like $75 less than the Buschur Bolt on solution, but it's up to YOU if that matters.

You are making this E98/Methanol way more complicated than it has to be as well. I really advise against the alcohol plan, but there will be a stage, prolly a few steps after it's all together, that you will be scratching your head. BUT BUT BUT, I can offer advice, realize it's very corrosive. VERY.

Factory fuel lines support 600hp with ease.

You really should take the car apart and realize how big the exhaust manifold gasket is, follow the FAQ on porting. You more than likely will not be opening the runners @ the head more than 1/16th.

At least you found that stock DSM fuel rails differ in diameter, maybe if we all measure rails we can shut that AutronicDSM guy up, as rails should stay the same ID regardless IHO.

 

[MNGSX]

This post is for DSMu4ia

Originally posted by DSMu4ia
Buschur has a nice 100% bolt on fuel regular solution.

RSMotorsport.net has the bolt on -AN fuel fittings. You would just need one, and some -AN hose, the AFPR, and a few fittings to make it work. It ends up costing like $75 less than the Buschur Bolt on solution, but it's up to YOU if that matters.

I'll look that stuff up.

You are making this E98/Methanol way more complicated than it has to be as well. I really advise against the alcohol plan, but there will be a stage, prolly a few steps after it's all together, that you will be scratching your head. BUT BUT BUT, I can offer advice, realize it's very corrosive. VERY.

For the last time ethanol is not very corrosive. They put an additive in it to avoid getting taxed as moonshine! Seriously.

My little brothers Box Stock Ford Ranger runs on 85% ethanol from the factory.

Factory fuel lines support 600hp with ease.

Maybe on race gas. E98 spanks even VP 116 you just need alot more of it and a bigger delivery system.

You really should take the car apart and realize how big the exhaust manifold gasket is, follow the FAQ on porting. You more than likely will not be opening the runners @ the head more than 1/16th.

I'm just looking for smooth flow from the heads exh port into the exh manifold not a radical diameter increase. Same with going from the manifold to the turbo. Smooth no edges or steps... Just smooth transitions.

At least you found that stock DSM fuel rails differ in diameter, maybe if we all measure rails we can shut that AutronicDSM guy up, as rails should stay the same ID regardless IHO.

The 1g and 2g rails appear to have nearly the same ID just different lengths.

The bigger rail is probably needed not just for flow but to dampen pulses in the rail from the very large injectors cycling. I just remembered that. It was one of the things someone told me about big setting up for big injectors. Who I can't remember but I know they are one of the big names that has forgotten more about EFI than we will ever know.

 

[MNGSX]

This is for autronicDSM... Thanks again for the help

Originally posted by autronicDSM
I remember long time ago somebody posted on Talon Digest that to use E98 you need like 50% more then gasoline. Don't quote me on that but that's what I remember.

It's 40% for E85 and probably at or bigger than 50% for E98.

I have the stoich AFR's for all three around here somewhere.

I'm going the the 160lb (1680cc.. Sometimes called 1700cc) injectors. If a gas setup ran say 720's You'd need about 1080cc's. 1680cc is like 1120cc for gas injectors. These injectors cycle as fast as most DSM 720's despite their size. The reduction in duty cycle will be used for tuning injection end angle as well as headroom for future upgrades.

I might be selling the 1g rail after all. The ID of my 2g is'nt any smaller it's just longer. I will make my own -10 from the extrude stock.

So use the -10An to wiggins adapter on both ends.

Drill and tap the extruded rail stock on each end for -10 AN male. Thread in the -10 an adapters with a little teflon tape. Then clamp the -10 rubber (ss outer) to the adapter with a wiggins clamp. Those sure are pretty. I might have and excuse to get the guy that is polishing a VC for me polish that rail stock. Why not?

I'll need to price that extruded rail and connectors. Should be cheaper than that other rail esp when I deduct the sale of my 1g rail.

 

[autronicDSM]

DSMu4ia:
Huh? How about you go back to f ucking your mom douche bag. MNGSX was asking about fuel rails. Why waste money on aftermarket one that is about the same size as stock if you can build your own and make your own fuel system from off the shelf parts for really cheap, no need for different size adaptors etc. http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel2.html go read this, you need ~double amount of alcohol instead of gasoline. That means to make big HP you need bigger lines/rail. Not sure what are his plans but I was giving him a link, that's all

 

[DSMu4ia]

Autronic:

You said there was "no way in hell" a fuel rail could differ in ID's from
MANY rails are like this on 1g's and 2g's, regardless of if they've been unbolted before.
one end to another. I commented on this in another thread.

You acted like it was some VERY RARE occurance for a rail to be warped.

ANYWAYS, I'm not a big fan of the bolt on aftermarket rails for a DSM, due to the fitment/leakage issues. AND for a stock location application, you should never use anything else for this purpose.

If you are going to run ALCOHOL, and be making fuel rails, and running the necessary ECU's to control a fuel setup that large, you really shouldn't be asking questions on DSMtalk/t00ners.

I know how alcohol needs setup on a car, I'm trying to steer him clear of it. There are reasons for this.

Also, any idea on the cost of those wiggins fuel adapters? If they are ANYTHING like their clamps the Titan car uses for intercooler piping, WTF would you ever recommend them? You could buy a whole fuel system for what it costs for 2-3 clamps.

Teflon tape is a big NO NO around fuel systems as well. Something along the lines of loctite 592 is much better.

I'm all for helping someone if it's a good cause and the answers aren't blatantly obvious, that's where my "pissy mood" begins. I'm just tired of seeing all these SLOW DSM's really.

 

[MNGSX]

I have alot of loctite stuff around I might have some 592. I've got everything from loctite thread lockers (all colors) to their adheasives

I guess t-tape was'nt a good Idea.

You acted like it was some VERY RARE occurance for a rail to be warped.

They usually warp from uneven spacers when tightening. I saw some dumb ass mechanic f up a rail with a 1/4" air rachet once. the middle spacer fell out and he did'nt catch it untill after the rail bowed in 1/4"

What a dumbass.

ID's are just casting variations and shifts like on heads or blocks.

The extrude blanks are much more uniform and accurate.

How about we figure out the best way to do do something instead of fighting about stupid sh&t.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by autronicDSM
DSMu4ia:
http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel2.html go read this, you need ~double amount of alcohol instead of gasoline. That means to make big HP you need bigger lines/rail. Not sure what are his plans but I was giving him a link, that's all

Thats for methanol.

E85 is 50% bigger. E98 is like partway between the two. I'll crunch the exact number but the A/F for moonshine is less rich than for the solvent like and toxic methanol.

The pump and injectors the guy who runs that exact site say will be just fine for 85% and 98% ethanol. It does'nt eat modern injectors like methanol. While it requires alot more than gas it needs less than methnol. of the top of my head 100% (cant get because of taxes as drinkable) is like 9 to 1. Methanol is 7 to 1. Something like that. I have the scientific specifics and data in a .doc file around here somewhere. I know its a 2.0 difference in a/f ratio. Why do you think I bought 1680cc injectors and looking for a -10AN rail?

 

[DSMu4ia]

So how much boost you plan on running, and what ECU you going to use?

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by DSMu4ia
So how much boost you plan on running, and what ECU you going to use?

ECU

http://www.autronic.com/specials.html

The plug and play 2g DSM board. Just a modified SMD evo board.

I'm more concerned with a smoothing running engine than bragging about street PSI settings. It will be as high as most peoples race gas settings on the E85 (105) and much higher on the E98 (~115). So my pump "gas" settings will be their race gas. The race gas setting will be as big a jump I'm guessing as between their settings. My buddys carbed 69 camaro frosts the carb on E98! get the picture?

As for boost I'll run whatever I think a stock 1g bottom end can take with ARP fasteners. Based on the Dyno output. I might see if the lower temps from the alchohol fuel can stretch the capabilites of stock pistons a bit. Its alot cooler CC temp at a given PSI. Even 1g big rods have their limits.

I'll see just how much power a mostly stock bottom end can handle. It's got better rod bolts and head studs.

Even a perfectly tuned engine with no knock can wreck a rod. Not from knock but from asking the rod to deliver more force the crank than it can transfer to the crank. I'm not talking throwing from RPM but bending from being overloaded. I won't put an abrubt and sudden load on the engine for the pulls just a smooth incease of load which will help. A sudden shock loading with a high load will bend rods easy. Dude bad dyno operators break as much shit as bad drivers.

When I get done with the other block I have I'll run the max the turbo is efficient at. It will be a big motor and take over a year to complete. Some funky sh&t. I'll use this head on it