Waste Spark Ignition???

[DarkendSoul]

I am really wanting to know if they make a good Aftermarket waste spark ignition setup for our cars. Waste spark ignition=cooler cumbustion chamber temps=more boost without detonation or maybe even higher compression pistons... If they make a good waste spark ignition for our cars then who makes one and how do you go about getting one?

 

[ATF 2GTalon]

I hope you know that our stock ignition is a waste spark ignition. It really isn't all that efficient compared to individual coils per spark plug. With waste spark, one coil is sending the spark to 2 cylinders. 1 cylinder is in the power stroke and the other is in the exhaust stroke. Hence the name waste spark. Firing in the exhaust stroke is a wasted spark. It does absolutely nothing.

 

[LILGSX96]

I do not really know why you need a ignition upgrade are you making over 450 whp??? If so then you may want to get a MSD DIS2 box.

Luke
LILGSX96 6 bolt haltech 272/272 cams "Porn King" intakemanifold big turbo and stuff....

 

[DarkendSoul]

well, what I was talking about was adapting the ignition system to use more than one coil pack. (i.e. 1 pack for the waste spark and 1 pack for the primary spark or 1 pack per cylinder) I know that the engine in there now uses a waste spark method, but it isnt efficient because the waste spark have bearly enough power to bridge the gap in the plug because all of the power is going to the other plug. With a good waste spark ignition, the temp in the cylinder that the waste spark is fired in should drop to around 80 C. Doing this you dont even need an intercooler. Why do you think some of those engines you see that break the 1000 hp mark and run about 30 pounds of boost dont have intercoolers? I have seen people also put 2 different spark plugs in a cylinder. One for ignition and one for exhaust. I have never heard of an aftermarket waste spark for our cars, so if anyone has one they probily made it them selves. But if anyone has any info, please let me know.

 

[autronicDSM]

What are you smoking?

 

[LILGSX96]

"Why do you think some of those engines you see that break the 1000 hp mark and run about 30 pounds of boost dont have intercoolers?" "quote"

Hummm it is called methanol......


LUKE
LILGSX96

 

[brads]

I have to agree with autronic, what ARE you smoking?

Our ignition system already uses two dual outlet coils. I can't envision a purpose to using seperate coil packs for the primary and wasted spark. I can't even picture how that would work. On the stock sysytem, you have the primary and wasted spark coming from the same coil, because the spark current flows in a loop. It goes from the coil, down one plug wire, across the plug gap, through the head, back across the plug gap on the other plug, back up the plug wire, and back the the original coil. The wasted spark concept is there purely because its a cheap manufacturing method, and it really doesnt hurt performance, and doesnt significantly effect spark output. The cylinders are paired up so that when the plugs are fired, one is under compression, and the other isnt. By not being under compression, it takes very little voltage to bridge that gap, and very little of the spark energy is wasted on the that plug. Most of the energy goes to the plug firing under compression, which is exactly how it needs to be.

Dual plug heads are somewhat common on bikes. They have their place, but it isnt on a 4g63. Go get a good book on ignitions, learn a little more about how they work, what you are talking about really doesnt make sense.

Brad

 

[slideways]

Well put brads.

A non-intercooled 1000hp turbo car? Show me.

 

[DSMJim]

Originally posted by slideways
Well put brads.

A non-intercooled 1000hp turbo car? Show me.

Uh yeah ther are LOTS of them. It's called Methanol or Alcohol. It burns way cooler than regular gas requiring no intercooler.

Gary Gardella runs 45psi of boost and no intercooler and makes 960 at the wheels.

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Here is a pic of Steph Papadakis new twin turbo NSX powered Civic with no intercooler making over 1000WHP

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Hows that for showing you non intercooled 1000hp turbo cars? Next time do yourself a favour and dont talk about thing you dont know anything about. Read that little yellow box when you post a reply that says and I quote "Dong give any technical advice unless you have first-hand experience on the subject."

 

[Defiant]

Civic? I thought you said "car".

Usually it's assumed we're speaking of DSMs in here, and on the street.

Apologies for the pinheadedness. On whoever's part it was.

 

[slideways]

Originally posted by DSMJim

Hows that for showing you non intercooled 1000hp turbo cars? Next time do yourself a favour and dont talk about thing you dont know anything about. Read that little yellow box when you post a reply that says and I quote "Dong give any technical advice unless you have first-hand experience on the subject."

Take it easy JIM. And yes I do know the advantages and the disadvantages to running methanol/ethanol. That pic is the first non intercooled turbo drag car I have seen and it obviously isnt a common choice. My first hand experience with close to 1000hp drag imports is limited as Im sure yours is. I have seen several high hp turbo drag cars up close, all of which had intercoolers. This thread was about waste spark ingition systems has strayed a bit, it is now limited to Gary Gardella and Steph Papadakis' crew cheifs.... and Jim

Dont take it personal just giving you a hard time in return

 

[Big Woo]

I must agree "what are you smoking"?

If you wish to run one coil for the normal spark, and one for the wasted spark, for each cylinder, you will need eight (8) coils. And of course a means of controling them. However it seems that you would be adding four coils too many, just for the sake of saying that you still have a waste spark system.

As far as one spark (the normal combustion spark) being of sufficeint energy, and the other spark (the wasted end of the exhaust cycle spark) being of less energy. Not true the two sparks in question happen exactly 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation apart. Therefore identical charge times, and coil saturation times are present for the same coil for the same cylinder every 360 degrees. Remember a four stroke engine of any number of cylinders requires 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation to complete the four engine cycles ( intake, compression, power, exhaust)

Take your money you would have spent on coils, drivers, and control units, and buy some dyno time with tuning, and I will bet you will make more power, and see a reduction in EGT's if you take it to a profesional.

 

[brads]

Originally posted by Big Woo
As far as one spark (the normal combustion spark) being of sufficeint energy, and the other spark (the wasted end of the exhaust cycle spark) being of less energy. Not true the two sparks in question happen exactly 360 degrees of crankshaft rotation apart. Therefore identical charge times, and coil saturation times are present for the same coil for the same cylinder every 360 degrees.

You are partially correct. You can assume identical charge times and TOTAL spark energy between the first firing, and the second 360 degrees later. But what you are missing, is that each time the coil is fired, it creates not one, but 2 sparks. See my previous post about the current path if you don't understand why. One of the sparks is in the cylinder under compression, which makes the power. The other is in the cylinder on its exhaust stroke. The TOTAL spark energy is split between these. Most of the spark energy goes to the cylinder under compression. The other cylinder has no pressure in it, so it is much easier to bridge the spark gap, and flow current. The one under compression is the one that requires most of the energy. So you really don't lose that much by going the wasted spark route, thats why factories do it. If it lost a lot of energy, the design of it wouldn't save as much money, because they would need coils that were twice as strong, and an ignition transistor that could handle a lot more current, compared to a setup that didnt lose all of that spark energy.


Brad

 

[TurboAWD92GSX]

i got a prototype coil on plug ignition system using corvette zo6 coils modified with an interconnector to fit onto the spark plug. my friend is still makeing me a wiring harness. will make the kit available in 2-3 weeks. should make some good decent gains with individual coils eliminateing the plug wires and increasing the spark voltage.

 

[brads]

Of all the things that will be increased, it won't be the spark voltage. That is determined by the spark gap/boost level/mixture. You keep talking about this stuff, and you have absolutely NO clue as to what you are talking about manny. Don't you have some broken transmissions to try to sell to people or something? You don't even know how ignitions work, you are NOT someone who should be trying to sell them.

Brad

Originally posted by TurboAWD92GSX
should make some good decent gains with individual coils eliminateing the plug wires and increasing the spark voltage.

 

[DSMJim]

Originally posted by slideways


Take it easy JIM. And yes I do know the advantages and the disadvantages to running methanol/ethanol. That pic is the first non intercooled turbo drag car I have seen and it obviously isnt a common choice. My first hand experience with close to 1000hp drag imports is limited as Im sure yours is. I have seen several high hp turbo drag cars up close, all of which had intercoolers. This thread was about waste spark ingition systems has strayed a bit, it is now limited to Gary Gardella and Steph Papadakis' crew cheifs.... and Jim

Dont take it personal just giving you a hard time in return

Now what I want to see are some girls in thongs...:laugh:

 

[kpt4321]

Sideways, you're wrong, take it like a man. Jim showed you up, stop trying to act like you're still all cool.

The original douchenozzle who started this thread has no idea what he is talking about, and his posting privelages should be revoked.

...Kyle T.