How much hp will be gained w/ greddy fmic on t-25?

[unmatched97]

how much hp will be gained w/ greddy fmic on stock t-25

 

[eclipsinemcee]

you dont need a FMIC with a t25, its too small. the t-too tiny would have problems getting the air through the front mount causing a big pressure drop. it wouldnt work correctly. your fine with the stocker for now

 

[talonted_one]

I agree... chances are you wont see a gain at all with a T-25, but you will prolly have more lag.

 

[Bd1000Eclipse]

i would say none.. the t-25 is a very small turbo and the greddy is a very big intercooler.. it will take longer to fill it , possibly considering more lag.. i just bought a supra smic and am in the process of installing it.. it should be all i ever need, and its a great cheap mod, look into that.

 

[jpolizo]

This is an interesting question and I'm looking forward to seeing some more responses. One of the things I've read in various places is that the T-25 is actually capable of 250HP. The 2G cars, though, only get rated at 210HP. That seems to imply that the turbo is not the limiting factor.

My guess is that the best thing would be to remove various restrictions before doing an intercooler (e.g. exhaust and intake).

 

[Bd1000Eclipse]

i have friends running the t25 with full exhaust and intakes and let me tell you its a quick spooling little sucker.. but once it gets past 4500rpm it drops like a fly and thats when my 14b keeps on going.

 

[Spidey]

Originally posted by jpolizo
This is an interesting question and I'm looking forward to seeing some more responses. One of the things I've read in various places is that the T-25 is actually capable of 250HP. The 2G cars, though, only get rated at 210HP. That seems to imply that the turbo is not the limiting factor.

My guess is that the best thing would be to remove various restrictions before doing an intercooler (e.g. exhaust and intake).

Should be capable with every possible mod aside from a turbo swap. 210hp is the stock rating.

Originally posted by Bd1000Eclipse
i have friends running the t25 with full exhaust and intakes and let me tell you its a quick spooling little sucker.. but once it gets past 4500rpm it drops like a fly and thats when my 14b keeps on going.

Dunno what's up with your friends' cars, but mine holds 15psi til at least 5500rpm.

 

[Coldandafraid]

Originally posted by jpolizo
T-25 is actually capable of 250HP. The 2G cars, though, only get rated at 210HP. That seems to imply that the turbo is not the limiting factor.

Well, the fact that the boost is set for around 11 psi from factory. Get a fuel pump and MBC and go to 17 - 18 psi, then you'll be closer to 250 hp.

 

[Turbodenz]

i still have the t25 but will be adding a starion front mount in a few weeks then upgradeing the turbo ill let yall know how it goes

 

[Tallen]

Originally posted by Turbodenz
i still have the t25 but will be adding a starion front mount in a few weeks then upgradeing the turbo ill let yall know how it goes

ditch the starion idea, it abrely flows more than stock and it has a nice pressure drop. i suggest an Isuzu NPR IC (little ugly white package truck). the core of the one u want is 8.5x20x2

 

[jpolizo]

Originally posted by Coldandafraid


Well, the fact that the boost is set for around 11 psi from factory. Get a fuel pump and MBC and go to 17 - 18 psi, then you'll be closer to 250 hp.

Yeah, that's pretty interesting. Instead of $900 for an FMIC, get a fuel pump and a boost controller for less than $200; then see where you are at.

 

[eclipsinemcee]

Originally posted by Coldandafraid


Well, the fact that the boost is set for around 11 psi from factory. Get a fuel pump and MBC and go to 17 - 18 psi, then you'll be closer to 250 hp.

the t25 is good till about 15-16psi. anything higher is bad for the turbo and decrease the life of it. you can actually lose hp because all your doin is blowin hot air.

edit: the 210hp rating is at the crank, not the wheels. stock hp at the wheels is around 185ish hp.

 

[BOMEX DSM]

i was running 14psi on the low setting on my profect and 16 at the high on the T25 and let me tell ya the 14 and 16 felt the same not much difference with the SMIC. Once i got the GReddy FMIC those extra 2psi became alot more usefull the 16 felt faster than the 14 did more of a top end thing if you ask me. But yeah save it for later get first mods first.

 

[zerofreez]

Originally posted by eclipsinemcee


the t25 is good till about 15-16psi. anything higher is bad for the turbo and decrease the life of it. you can actually lose hp because all your doin is blowin hot air.

edit: the 210hp rating is at the crank, not the wheels. stock hp at the wheels is around 185ish hp.

I dissagree with this, with my own experiences at the track, and looking at larryd's dyno sheets from a long time ago.

He saw decent gains from 16psi 18psi and 20psi. Especially torque.

 

[DCJ98GST]

Originally posted by zerofreez



I dissagree with this, with my own experiences at the track, and looking at larryd's dyno sheets from a long time ago.

He saw decent gains from 16psi 18psi and 20psi. Especially torque.

It depends on the car and the turbo. If you have a t-25 on its last legs it wont do that.

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by unmatched97
how much hp will be gained w/ greddy fmic on stock t-25

After you have done a full exhaust, opened up the intake and maxed out the boost, you will see a gain with an FMIC because you are pushing the compresso really far out of it's map and it's creating a lot of heat. Not to mention you get rid of a lot of pressure drop.

Do it as a last mod, not a first.

 

[bizzydsm]

Originally posted by unmatched97
how much hp will be gained w/ greddy fmic on stock t-25

Ya the FMIC would look nice but you really dont need it right now! Get a fuel pump, boost controller,upper intercooler pipe, and a 16g and enjoy having over half the power that a front mount would give you at about the same cost!
Ryan
TEAM
~DIAMOND STAR DOMINATION~

 

[sidoze]

larryd kept turning up the boost on the t25 and kept getting more power, 16psi is not the limit...all be it you will destroy the poor guy if you do it too much.

 

[greyforestgst]

i think they got 25 more horespower out of a 14b with just a fmic, so 15?

 

[kpt4321]

greyforest: You cannot make it NEARLY that simple. The gains from a FMIC will vary a LOT depending on the turbo, the rest of the mods, the car, the test conditions, the boost level, the tuning, etc, etc.

To all: A FMIC will not create as much lag as everyone thinks it will. At 2500 rpm, the turbo has to fill over 20 liters with air, PER SECOND. A FMIC is not going to increase that a whole lot.

A FMIC is an effective upgrade on any car that is pushing enough boost to use it properly. It does not matter what turbo it is, the main question is twhat are the other mods. Like JayHass said, do it as a last mod, not a first more.

....Kyle T.

 

[igs]

Originally posted by sidoze
larryd kept turning up the boost on the t25 and kept getting more power, 16psi is not the limit...all be it you will destroy the poor guy if you do it too much.

Can you please elaborate on this? What causes the turbo to be destroyed? From spinning too fast? Isn't it spinning the fastest at redline where it's only making 10 psi?

 

[igs]

Causes Of Turbocharger Failures
Approximately 40% of all turbocharger failures are oil-related. Contaminated or dirty oil leads to bearing scratching and scoring which cause excessive bearing wear and premature bearing failure. Another oil-related turbocharger failure is lack of lubrication. As mentioned earlier, the turbo runs at very high speeds. Without full oil pressure to the turbocharger bearings, even a momentary loss of oil pressure can quickly cause overheating and destroy the bearing system.

Lack of lubrication results not only from low oil pressure, but also from kinks and/or clogs in the oil inlet line. Occasionally, gasket sealant used between the oil inlet hose and the bearing housing seeps and clogs the oil passages.

Another cause of turbocharger failures is inlet restrictions from plugged air cleaners, collapsing hose connections or undersized air pipes. These restrictions reduce the air supply to the turbo and ultimately to the engine resulting in excessive exhaust temperatures leading to turbine housing cracking and scaling or even turbine wheel failures.

Inlet restrictions also can produce a vacuum inside the compressor. This can cause over speed conditions in the turbo which can lead to premature bearing failure or even make a compressor wheel burst. This vacuum inside the compressor also can cause oil leakage into the compressor.

The turbo's oil seals depend upon a positive air pressure inside the compressor and turbine to "push" the oil inside the bearing housing and keep oil from seeping into the outer housings. In an inlet restriction situation, the vacuum wants to "pull" the oil past the oil seals. Prolonged oil leakage into the compressor can lead to oil seal damage and excessive engine smoking.

Prolonged engine idling also can cause turbocharger oil seal failure, this time on the turbine side. Continued idling causes the turbo to rotate without producing boost. Consequently, a vacuum condition on the turbine side tries to "pull" oil past the turbine-side oil seal and into the turbine housing.

Over-fueling also can lead to premature turbo failure by producing excessive exhaust temperatures which can cause turbine housing scaling and cracking. As the turbine housing continues to deteriorate from the excessive heat, pieces of the housing can crack off and cause turbine wheel failure.

Hot engine shutdown also can lead to turbocharger oil leakage by causing the oil to coke up inside the oil drain and forcing the oil out the turbine and compressor seals. A clogged or collapsed oil outlet hose also can cause oil to leak.

Another common cause of turbo failures is foreign object damage to either the compressor or turbine wheels. A rapidly rotating wheel quickly disintegrates when a foreign body tries to pass through the wheel's blades. This type of turbine wheel damage is the result of pieces of burned or broken valves and combustion cups passing through the exhaust system. Other turbine damage is due to casting flash that may break out of the manifolds and ports.

Occasionally improperly installed gaskets will allow pieces of the gasket to overhang a port and break off into the exhaust system. Damage caused by nuts and washers that are dropped into the exhaust system is also very frequent. Scuffed and broken pistons often find their way out of the engine and into the turbocharger turbine wheel.

Compressor wheel breakage also can occur from foreign object material although not as frequently as turbine wheel damage. Sometimes pieces of the air cleaner will break loose and go through the compressor. There also have been instances where hose connections fail and pieces of rubber or wire reinforcing from the hose get into the compressor wheel. Again, carelessness in allowing nuts, bolts, washers, rocks, rags and even screwdrivers to get into the intake systems will cause compressor wheel failures.


Preventing Turbo Failures
After examining the various causes of turbocharger failures, common-sense can prevent such failures in the future. Keep the engine full of clean oil to the engine manufacturer's specifications. Also keep the air filter clean and unrestricted. The duct work from the air cleaner to the turbocharger compressor should be free from holes and all connections should be tight to prevent leaks which could allow dirt and debris to enter the turbocharger.

Warm up the engine for two to five minutes prior to throttling up the engine. This procedure assures proper oil pressure to the turbocharger prior to operation under load conditions. Let the engine idle for approximately two minutes prior to engine shut down. This cool-down period prevents oil coking and oil varnishing on the turbine wheel and shaft. Varnishing is a build up of oil on the shaft which increases clearances and decreases the flow of oil to cool and lubricate the shaft.








From this I can conclude that T25 failure from "overboosting" is a myth just like T25 blowing hot air after x psi is a myth. False myth I might add.

 

[igs]

more......




Most Common Causes Of Turbo Faliures
1. HARD DRIVING, IMMEDIATELY ON STARTING.
The engine has not built up enough oil pressure to lubricate the turbocharger adequately.
2. SHUTTING OFF THE ENGINE IMMEDIATELY AFTER DRIVING.
The turbo is extremely hot and still spinning at high revs and there is no oil to lubricate the bushings and dissipate the heat.
3. LACK OF OIL, OR DIRTY OIL.
Without oil, the entire engine will fail. Dirty oil will carry debris (metal slivers and carbon pieces) into the turbo bushings.
4. SHRAPNEL IN THE MANIFOLDS
Pieces of valves, rings, pistons and even coked oil will destroy the turbine and/or the compressor wheels when contact is made at high revs.
5. PRESSURISING THE TURBOCHARGER
A dirty air filter, clogged catalytic converter or damaged exhaust system can cause failure. An internally damaged engine will pressurise, preventing oil draining from the turbocharger.

 

[igs]

even more......








An analysis of turbochargers removed from service indicates that approximately 40% of the troubles are due to foreign material going through either the turbine or compressor wheels. An additional 40% are due to lubrication failures. The remaining 20% are of a miscellaneous nature.

Some of the foreign material damage is the result of pieces of burned or broken valves and combustion cups passing through the exhaust system into the turbine. Other turbine damage is due to casting fins that may break out of the manifolds and ports. Occasionally improperly installed gaskets will permit pieces of the gasket to overhang a port and break off into the exhaust system. Damage due to nuts and washers that are dropped into the exhaust system is also frequent. Occasionally engines suffer from scuffed and broken pistons. Pieces of these pistons will damage turbine wheels.

Compressor wheel breakage also occurs due to foreign material although not as frequently as turbine wheel damage. Sometimes pieces of the air cleaner will break loose and go through the compressor. There have also been instances where hose connections fail and pieces of rubber or wire reinforcing from the hose gets into the compressor wheel.

Again, carelessness in allowing nuts, bolts and washers to get into the intake system sometimes causes compressor wheel failures.

Lubrication failures may be any one of a number of types. Undersized or plugged oil lines are quite common. It is essential to have an adequate supply of oil at full engine oil pressure for the turbocharger bearings. The turbocharger runs at very high speeds and will very quickly overheat with even a momentary failure of the oil supply.

The oil supplied to the turbocharger should first pass through a good filter of adequate size so that there is always full oil pressure at the turbocharger bearings. With an adequate supply of clean oil, turbocharger bearings will run for thousands of hours with literally no measurable wear.

Failures may occur due to extreme exhaust temperatures encountered in excessive altitude operation. Any engine that is operating close to its limit on exhaust temperature at sea level will have excessive exhaust temperatures when operated at altitudes above 5000 feet. Altitude operation will cause the turbocharger speed to increase and may cause failures due to overspeeding as well as high temperatures unless the engines fuel system derated according to the manufacturers recommendations.

Inlet restrictions due to plugged air cleaners, collapsing hose connections, or undersized air pipes have the affect of reducing the air supply to the engine and result in excessive exhaust temperatures. Both inlet restriction and the excessive altitude operation can cause turbine housing cracking or even turbine wheel failures due to excessive temperatures.

With any turbocharger, it is possible to accumulate enough dirt in the compressor housing and diffuser to reduce the air flow capacity and the efficiency of the compressor if the air cleaner is not properly maintained. Reduced air flow will cause the engine to run hotter and may result in burned valves and pistons which in turn will cause turbocharger failures.

Leaking gaskets or connections on either the intake or exhaust system of the engine will cause a reduction in the air supply to the engine and will result in high exhaust temperatures.

Sometimes air connections and exhaust connections are made in such a manner that thermal expansion of the exhaust manifold and other parts connected to the turbocharger will produce very high loads on the turbocharger. These high load result in housing distortion that will cause the turbine and compressor wheels to rub on the housings.

Excessively heavy piping that is supported only by the turbocharger may also cause housing distortion.

Turbocharger mountings that are not sufficiently rigid to prevent excessive vibrations in the turbocharger can also cause distortions and failures.

Very few turbocharger failures would occur if no foreign material were permitted to enter either the turbine or compressor, if precautions were taken to prevent excessive exhaust temperatures, and if the turbocharger were always supplied with an adequate supply of clean oil.

 

[MaineDSM]

Nice cut and paste (at least I HOPE you didn't type all that!)

But the fact is, overspinning a turbo DOES kill them.
From the tome you posted:

Altitude operation will cause the turbocharger speed to increase and may cause failures due to overspeeding

A real life example from the DSM community:

I know of many autocrossers, who, because of SCCA rules, have to keep the T25 and the crappy stock 2G BOV.

They raise their boost with some tricks, like the BCS restrictor mod, so they get more power.

However, the stock BOV leaks, so the poor little T25 needs to spin faster in attempt to make up boost that is leaking out. It can do this for awhile, but then it dies.

These autocrossers kill the T25 often, sometimes a couple times a year. Usually there is no harm done, and T25s are cheap, so they just replace it. Sometimes, a compressor blade or bearing comes apart, and metal bits get into the engine, ruining it. This sucks.

Because of that, I would not reccomend running a T25 over 16psi for long periods of time. You'll probably be ok, but there is always that chance of ruining the engine when the turbo eventually goes.

Just some real-world experience to put in the databank.