Grounding issues (?)

[Newlogics]

Hey guys.

My question is regarding grounding. Which rules apply ?
Does grounding work by 'the more - the merrier' rule ?

I've replaced my stock grounding wires with bigger ones, and also added several more grounds.

I don't know if what happened was a coincidence, or was caused by extensive grounding, but here's the story:

Right after I installed those ground wires, we went to the track and after the first pass my temp and EGT gauges started to wabble and act weird. EGT pointer was pointing directly downward (off the scale), and my stock temp gauge wabbled for a while and then went to hot and stayed there (with minor fluctuations) through the whole trip back.

Right before that pass, my car wouldn't start so we had to push-start it. After the pass, we had to push start it again (all power devices like seatbelts and windows were working perfectly, not showing signs of low battery) car would click, but not start. ON the way home, logger was showing 12v on the battery at first, then slowly got to 9 volts by the time I took my exit, that's when fuel pump relay switched of and car died. Note that my aftermarket temp gauge and logger didn't show and excessive overheating, so stock temp gauge was obviously acting like that due to lack of voltage.

After I dropped new battery in the car, everything went back to normal, and voltage is at 13v, which means its chargin and alternator works fine.

So was this whole thing caused simply by dying battery, or did new grounding play any role in it ?

 

[Newlogics]

No electricians here ?
Here's some more info:

Stock grounds(1G):

1. Batt. to firewall
2. Batt. to tranny/block
3. Throttle Adjusting Rail to Firewall.

I've upgraded those and added:

4. Batt to Head (one of the front valve cover bolts)
5. Batt to Throttle adj. rail.

Anyone sees any problems ?

 

[mike9146]

I was under the same impression as you. "The more the merrirer." What I do know, is that over time, ground (earth) straps build up resistance and should be replaced. Is it possible that the "new" ones aren't of the same material as the stockers? I would try replacing them with new factory ones and eliminating the others to see if that makes everything happy.

 

[halvorja]

It was your battery, not those grounding cables. You most likely had a few bad cells in the battery, so that you had enough juice to run the accessories, but not to start the car. It takes quite a bit to turn over a motor.

You may just want to check out the alternator. Make sure it is within spec. If it isn't charging well, it wil eat batteries like crazy.

For grounding cables, the more the merrier is true (Just as long as you aren't running a grouding strap right off of a positive terminal).

Jake

 

[Newlogics]

Originally posted by halvorja
It was your battery, not those grounding cables. You most likely had a few bad cells in the battery, so that you had enough juice to run the accessories, but not to start the car. It takes quite a bit to turn over a motor.

You may just want to check out the alternator. Make sure it is within spec. If it isn't charging well, it wil eat batteries like crazy.

For grounding cables, the more the merrier is true (Just as long as you aren't running a grouding strap right off of a positive terminal).

Jake

Why is it bad idea to run grouds from the battery post ?

note: The reason I've replaced my stock grounds was because I found some insulation melted on ground straps, and that's leading cause of DSM fires. Straps I used are 100% copper and much thicker then stock, so I don't think material is an issue here.

 

[RallyxDave]

Originally posted by Newlogics


Why is it bad idea to run grouds from the battery post ?

I think you're missing the fact that he said don't run the grounding cable off of the "positive terminal"

 

[Newlogics]

Originally posted by RallyxDave


I think you're missing the fact that he said don't run the grounding cable off of the "positive terminal"

whoops... my bad

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

there's a guy down here in South Florida, grounded his wiring off of the valve cover and intake into this unit. said it took care of his in car electronic problems and picks up a few horsepower. here's a picture of his set-up

 

[brads]

Originally posted by WhipmastaFlex
there's a guy down here in South Florida, grounded his wiring off of the valve cover and intake into this unit. said it took care of his in car electronic problems and picks up a few horsepower. here's a picture of his set-up

How did he measure this few extra HP? I'd be surprised if it was legitimate. Grounds can make a difference on cars with questionable ignitions and electrical systems. It shouldnt make a measureable difference on our cars.

While adding extra grounding is OK, be careful about creating new ground loops. You already did that with one of the wires you added. You have a ground wire from the battery to the firewall, and the throttle adjusting rail to the firewall. Adding a line directly from the battery to the throttle adjusting rail creates a loop. Ground loops can cause issues like excessive electrical "noise". If you upgraded the first 2 wires, it sounds like adding the 3rd wire is unnecessary. It wouldnt kill the battery though.

Use of high quality cable that is rated to survive under hood is a good idea. make sure you use good connectors to connect the ground cable, and dielectric grease can't hurt either, it will improve contact at the connector, and lower resistance. Unless you actually lower the resistance of the ground cable, it isnt really an upgrade. So make sure you do it right.

Brad

 

[WhipmastaFlex]

Originally posted by brads
How did he measure this few extra HP? I'd be surprised if it was legitimate. Brad

he guessed it off the top of his head... or he used a dyno, one of the two. found this to be true on his 350Z and Tsi AWD. the guy runs an 11.99, you tell me

 

[brads]

I'd be interested to hear exactly what his in car electronic problems were, and how he ran the dyno tests to ensure accuracy to a few hp on a car making a few hundred hp.

There are people out there that swore by Splitfire plugs, and Slick 50 too, at least until they got busted for false advertising. Look at these links, they have dynos showing 13hp gain!
http://www.tornado-fuelsaver.com/TornadoFuelSaver.asp
http://www.tornadoair.com/road.php

If you want to buy into that stuff go for it. I like to see valid proof before I buy into things like these upgraded grounds. The people that make them don't make a legitimate case for why they help, they just toss up a few dyno numbers. I don't have an 11.99 sec timeslip to prove my electronics expertise though.

Like I said, some cars they help out, but our DSMs shouldn't be one of them.

Brad

Originally posted by WhipmastaFlex


he guessed it off the top of his head... or he used a dyno, one of the two. found this to be true on his 350Z and Tsi AWD. the guy runs an 11.99, you tell me

 

[doug]

No, he hasn't actually dynoed it-- it was just a butt dyno guess. One of the main improvements he mentioned was a smoother idle. There were other miscellaneous electrical problems he said got better too, but I don't remember what they were.

PS-- Adam, don't forget to please e-mail me those pics...

 

[Newlogics]

Originally posted by brads
I'd be interested to hear exactly what his in car electronic problems were, and how he ran the dyno tests to ensure accuracy to a few hp on a car making a few hundred hp.

There are people out there that swore by Splitfire plugs, and Slick 50 too, at least until they got busted for false advertising. Look at these links, they have dynos showing 13hp gain!
http://www.tornado-fuelsaver.com/TornadoFuelSaver.asp
http://www.tornadoair.com/road.php

If you want to buy into that stuff go for it. I like to see valid proof before I buy into things like these upgraded grounds. The people that make them don't make a legitimate case for why they help, they just toss up a few dyno numbers. I don't have an 11.99 sec timeslip to prove my electronics expertise though.

Like I said, some cars they help out, but our DSMs shouldn't be one of them.

Brad

I think my reasoning for upgrading grounding is rather simple: MY stock grounds had melted insulation. You all know that means right ?
At times, my throttle cable would get so hot, that some of the jacket melted and made my throttle hover at ~2%-3% when the car is hot instead of 0%. That hasn't happened with new grounds yet. Performance and power def. have nothing to do with upgraded grounds for me.

 

[brads]

I completely understand why you are replacing your grounds. I had to replace them on several old VWs I had because they went bad over time. If its bad its gotta be replaced.

I was just pointing out that the people here who are talking about replacing their perfectly good grounds, in hopes of getting performance gains, are most likely going to be disappointed.

Brad

 

[Newlogics]

Originally posted by brads
I completely understand why you are replacing your grounds. I had to replace them on several old VWs I had because they went bad over time. If its bad its gotta be replaced.

I was just pointing out that the people here who are talking about replacing their perfectly good grounds, in hopes of getting performance gains, are most likely going to be disappointed.

Brad

Hey.. someone's gotta buy those $70 grounding kits :laugh:

 

[doug]

I might make some using supplies from Home Depot Motorsports, but I'm not gonna pay big bucks for 'em. And I'm not really expecting too much either, but it'd be interesting to see what happens-- a learning experience if nothing else.

 

[brads]

Do you have access to oscilloscopes, or Digital Multimeters? It'd be interesting to compare resistance of the wires, and also to see if you can measure any voltage drop across the stock ones.

Brad

Originally posted by doug
I might make some using supplies from Home Depot Motorsports, but I'm not gonna pay big bucks for 'em. And I'm not really expecting too much either, but it'd be interesting to see what happens-- a learning experience if nothing else.

 

[doug]

That's a good idea. I do have a digital multimeter, but have no idea how to get ahold of an oscilloscope. How would you use the multimeter to take some readings?

 

[brads]

The oscilloscope would be best for showing the voltage drop across the ground wire. You might get some useful info by trying it with the engine running, lights and everything else on. Set the multimeter to volts. Put the ground lead on the multimeter on the ground battery terminal, and the red lead at the other grounding points. It will probably fluctuate a bit, but might give you a decent reading. If your multimeter is autoranging, you may need to adjust it to see milliVolts, so it doesnt bounce around as much. Do this same measurement with the new wire, and see
if there is a difference. The signal may move around too much though. The best way to look at it, would be with the ground wires off the car, just measure the resistance of the new one, and the stock one. Since they are both low resistance, you will want to also measure the resistance of the probes, by touching them together, and checking the reading. Then subtract that from what you measured across the ground wires.

Brad

Originally posted by doug
That's a good idea. I do have a digital multimeter, but have no idea how to get ahold of an oscilloscope. How would you use the multimeter to take some readings?

 

[doug]

Good info-- I'll have to try that whenever I get around to getting some wires.