nitrous sprayed pre-intercooler, BOV question

[dsmcurse]

So I'm entertaining the idea of using nitrous on my car. I'm gonnaa be hittin the dyno agin here in only a matter of days. I have this ZEX bottle just sittin here doin nothin so I figure I might as well throw that biatch on the car. (Hey it might be the differance from 570HP or 600HP) my intake mannifold is already set up on direct port water/meth injection (300cc squirter in each runner)

I'm planning to get a bung welded into my lower intercooler pipe or my initial endtank on the FMIC. I think that spraying a 50HP jetted nozzle befor the intercooler is gonna make the nitrous go through the guts of the intercooler and make that boosted air flowin through there even cooler. I can then imagine the boosted air being a lil spicy with NOS mixed into it. (Maybe that effects the nitrous/air ratio-mixture?) The boosted nitrous air will then go through my throttle body and into my intake manni that has direct port meth.

Now here's my quiestion. My blow off valve is 50mm tial knock off non re-circ open dump only kinda blow off valve. If nitrous is flowin through my IC pipes and at throttle let off and blow off valve releases air, there will be a bit of nitrous too huh? So if my BOV poofs out a lil nitrous....? Am I an idiot? Am I askin for trouble? Will it ignite? I have a turbo header that's hot as hell under there!

Will the air flow off me haulin ass down the free way be enough underhood air flow to make sure the BOV air (that will be spiced up a bit from NOS) rushes straight to the firewall area? Will the fans they place in front of the car at the dyno be enough air flow to push that stuff away from my turbo header?

I can imagine pre intercooler NOS set up workin good, my only fear is my blow off valve dumpin spicy air in my engine bay. Can I please get some feedback from some experienced nitrous user's? Wiseman? I'm reallly sincerley asking about my BOV dumpin with NOS that was in the pipe. Would I be better to bung the IC piping after my BOV? That sucks tho cause then the juice will be spraying super close to my TB. I wanted to sray at a very far away point on purpose, kind of a long-route nitrous path. Dig me? Any thoughts on doin this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[91-GS]

Just from what you said it does not sound like a good idea.

 

[Paintballaa5]

Sounds like something that even if someone said, "nahh man, it won't hurt anything," I would still picture the explosion in F&F every time I'm in teh car..

 

[dsmcurse]

So after BOV? Short of changing to a re-circulating BOV which I don't have time for, you guys think atmospheric dump BOV with nos in the mix is a bad idea? Any opinions on nitrous going through the guts of thee intercooler to freez the charge air from the inside?

Was just thinking, haven't people sprayed nitrouus into the Airfilter pipe pre turbo?

 

[91-GS]

Post-BOV sounds better.
What if when BOV is open and NOS is spraying the engine decides to stop. Can that even happend?

 

[DGajre777]

If you want to spray, just spray it after the BOV but before the TB.

If you run it pre-turbo, the nitrous would spool the turbo faster and would lower charge temps.

If you spray dry nitrous before the intercooler, (depending on the shot), the air might get cold enough that the intercooler would act like an A/C evaporator to heat up the air that's colder than the ambient temperature. It would defeat the purpose of the intercooler.

The only way I see it working effectively pre-intercooler, would be to cool the intercooler externally as well, which would require an intercooler nitrous bar kit. If you have an intercooler that isn't getting heat soaked, you might as well just get a sprayer bar since you already have the bottle. However, you will have lowest temps by allowing the hot air to go through the intercooler, letting it do it's job and then spraying nitrous after the intercooler.

As for your other question, sure some nitrous would come out of the BOV... but nitrous itself is not flammable. You need 3 things for a fire - heat, fuel and oxygen. While nitrous contains oxygen, even if you have it near a heat source, without fuel, nothing would happen.

This has some good stuff... basically, they couldn't get nitrous to "combust" with just a heat source. http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/291701.pdf

Personally, if I were you... I'd either just get a nitrous bar to cool the intercooler further, or just install it pre-throttle body.

 

[WES_393]

Nitrous Oxide itself is not flammable, it just aids in combustion by releasing Oxygen at high temperatures. Its not like your pumping Propane into the intake. In the end it's just air with a heavy Oxygen concentration.

That's where most of the performance comes from. Just like forced induction, your packing more air into the cylinders so you can burn more fuel. There is a cooling effect, but I'm not sure if a small dry shot would make much difference for intercooler efficiency. Maybe someone with first hand experience will chime in.

However, just to suggest an alternative, why not put a W/M nozzle right before the intercooler or even before the turbo? You already have the W/M setup so you would just need another nozzle. If you installed it pre turbo you would be stopping the heat at it's source. The only downside is wear to the compressor wheel, but that can be seriously reduced using the correct nozzle/pressure and installing a check valve before the nozzle to eliminate large droplets when the pump isn't running.

Edit- DGajre kinda beat me to it.

 

[dsmcurse]

I was remembering when I used to spray a single 500cc wate/meth nozzle in my upper intercooler pipe at the timei used a 3.5" GM maf (now full SD) the water meth nozzel was after my GM mass air flow but befor my throttle body. Even tho the water was sprayed after my maf I had twin Greddy type s BOV's befor the maf and when the blow off valves would release it wouldd pull water back the oppisite direction of flow and water meth was goin past my maf. I know this because I had blue residue from the wiper fluid stained on my maf and evidence of blue water residue at the BOVs. Is it possible spraying nos post BOV it can still change directions and find its waay out the BOV anyway?

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Some may but it would be considerably less than if it was pre-bov. I'm sure you can understand where air is going to flow when the throttle slams shut and the bov opens with everything pressurized.

 

[LiquidX]

Dee and Wes are correct. NO is an oxidizer so the only thing that it would affect is if you had an under-hood fire happening and the NO got to it.

Pre-IC injection would reduce the efficiency of the IC which may allow you to get a small IC if needed. Pre turbo injection would be the better route for heat reduction. You would use a separate pump and tank unless you are using a pretty pure mixture of methanol.

Basically a small nozzle (1/2gph) spraying meth which will vaporize will drastically cool the air charge at the turbo and won't pose a threat to the compressor wheel. Once you add water then that threat will increase little by little since the droplet size is larger compared to meth and the possibility of that little bit of leakage from the nozzle after it's done spraying. That can be corrected with proper parts though.

Give all of these some though and consideration before making a decision on your NO location port if you are going to still consider it.

 

[BogusSVO]

Glad I found this thread.

First I will say I have a limited knowledge of the use and tune for it.

I have been thinking of doing the same thing with a beater build I am doing, Non-DSM

I have about the same basic set up, non re-circulated BOV. Small front mount IC.

I was going to spray post turbo, Fan nozzle in the on the discharge side of the turbo.

But the one thing I have added is a pressure switch mounted in the IM.

The switch is normally closed, but opens at 10 PSI.
The switch is wired on the ground side of the nitrous solenoid, so once the switch sees 10PSI of pressure it kills the ground and stops the spray.

My thought is that with it wired in this way, the IC and pipes should be clear of the nitrous before the shift and the BOV sounds off.

Also this should provide a cooling effect to the IC and pipes, that will draw the heat from the compressed air of the turbo, to help fight heat soak of IC, and keep IAT lower for a few extra seconds.

If you spray dry nitrous before the intercooler, (depending on the shot), the air might get cold enough that the intercooler would act like an A/C evaporator to heat up the air that's colder than the ambient temperature. It would defeat the purpose of the intercooler.

I can see where some of the cooling effect of the nitrous would be lost at the IC.
But would it not stabilize in a short period of time, then the IC would perform as normal?

The only way I see it working effectively pre-intercooler, would be to cool the intercooler externally as well, which would require an intercooler nitrous bar kit. If you have an intercooler that isn't getting heat soaked, you might as well just get a sprayer bar since you already have the bottle. However, you will have lowest temps by allowing the hot air to go through the intercooler, letting it do it's job and then spraying nitrous after the intercooler.


Personally, if I were you... I'd either just get a nitrous bar to cool the intercooler further, or just install it pre-throttle body.

CO2 would work just as well as nitrous with the IC spray bar, and IIRC it is cheaper than $3.50-$4.00 a lb for nitrous.

 

[91-GS]

I do not know much about NOS and even if it is just an oxidizer i would not feel comfortable having it go out into engine bay since there are plenty of flamable materials and enough heat (not to mention possible electrical sparks) to start a fire. Then again there is alway a possibility of SOMETHING going wrong in every setup. Do like the idea of a cut-off switch that stops sparay before shifting.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

CO2 would work just as well as nitrous with the IC spray bar, and IIRC it is cheaper than $3.50-$4.00 a lb for nitrous.

its also a oxygen dispacer so not really something you'd want circulation around under the hood.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

I do not know much about NOS and even if it is just an oxidizer i would not feel comfortable having it go out into engine bay since there are plenty of flamable materials and enough heat (not to mention possible electrical sparks) to start a fire. Then again there is alway a possibility of SOMETHING going wrong in every setup. Do like the idea of a cut-off switch that stops sparay before shifting.

Its been used to spray intercoolers forv years and no1 has ever blown up from it. Pretty sure its not going to blow up from a hot surface. Its gas not liquid. Gas doesn't ignite from a hot surface, its gas. It needs spark or open flame. Heat will just disperse it, not ignite it.

 

[talon2gbuyer]

Yes, but gas expands in hot temps. If the bottle or container doesnt have a pressure valve as a safeguard, boom. Why do you think most people run their no2 bottles or similar from the trunk? Its a controlable environment, whereas the underhood area is not. Simple common sense really.

 

[DGajre777]

I can see where some of the cooling effect of the nitrous would be lost at the IC. But would it not stabilize in a short period of time, then the IC would perform as normal?

It depends on the shot of Nitrous Oxide used. I don't know how long it would take for N2O to stabilize... but an intercooler's cooling capability would depend on it's efficiency and size.

CO2 would work just as well as nitrous with the IC spray bar, and IIRC it is cheaper than $3.50-$4.00 a lb for nitrous.

I wouldn't have CO2 anywhere near an intake, even if it is cheaper. There was an article on one of my threads, where different intercooler bars were compared, including N20 and the CO2, but somehow amounts of CO2 found a way into the intake (on a closed system). which caused a performance loss.

I do not know much about NOS and even if it is just an oxidizer i would not feel comfortable having it go out into engine bay since there are plenty of flamable materials and enough heat (not to mention possible electrical sparks) to start a fire. Then again there is alway a possibility of SOMETHING going wrong in every setup. Do like the idea of a cut-off switch that stops sparay before shifting.

Nitrous Oxide will not ignite with heat, even with a spark unless it has a fuel source. I posted a link to an article on my post above. It's like having a vented fuel tank line under your car, which I ran for years. There was O2 and fuel, but without heat, the car never went boom. I'm sure if I ran over a cigarette bud I wouldn't be here typing this. Like Ben said above... the "boom" stories you hear about Nitrous Oxide are tanks exploding due to excess pressure.

P.s. NOS is the company, N2O is Nitrous Oxide, but some people abbreviate it for NO.

 

[91-GS]

Can't open the link (my laptop has issues) but just remembered reading another article on Oxygen VS N2O injection. That article said that N2O only gives up it's oxygen (part you want) at high temperatures and is harmless at low temperatures. It went on to say that using pure oxygen may cause pre-detonation and is not recommended.

 

[BogusSVO]

DGajre.. Thanks for the food for thought!

I did not know that about the CO2 spray bar, the only way I could see that CO2 getting into the inlet track is a pin hole in the weld or coupler, or the intake was close to the IC.

I think what I have is a 20-50 shot. All I wanted to do is offset the lag of the turbo.

Guess it is time to go try it, maybe grenade an engine or three!

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Yes, but gas expands in hot temps. If the bottle or container doesnt have a pressure valve as a safeguard, boom. Why do you think most people run their no2 bottles or similar from the trunk? Its a controlable environment, whereas the underhood area is not. Simple common sense really.

Idk of anyone who runs No2 and keeps the bottle under the hood. I also never mentioned anything about it being safe to have a bottle under the hood. Cause its not. Not sure of your point? Nobody else did either unless I missed that.

 

[dsmcurse]

ok two things id like to clear up. one, my FMIC isnt small, its a 12.5" tall by 24" across by 4" thick with 3" inlet and outlet. second, who the hell ever mentioned sittin a nitrous bottle under the hood?

i wasnt wanting to spray into the intercooler to improve my front mounts cooling capability. i was wanting to spray there for the fact that nitrous would travel the ENTIRE distance of my boosted air. keeping the boost cool and spicy all the way to the engine. only thing that scared me was blow off valve poofin puffs of nos out under my hood.

i wonder what would happen if a guy sprayed nitrous into the air filter pipe? like had the nitrous nozzle pointed at the compressor wheel? would a turbo just chop that $hit up and send spicy boost through out the whole system eventually hittin the engine?

after alot of thought on this, ive deceided "go big or go home" i used to use a throttle body spacer that was half inch thick and held a water/meth nozzel. im thinkin i might dig up this old throttle body spacer and use it to hold a nos nozzle.

that way its sprayed behind the TB flapper and theres no chance of NOS poofin out of my blow off valve. jetted for 50hp shot, which at the dyno should be good for about 30-35whp correct?

another idea, at the dyno, im gonna mix my water/meth extra strong (more meth than usual) and add ice cubes in the water/meth tank. the extra strong mixture should also be extra cold. what do you guys think about this?

 

[91-GS]

another idea, at the dyno, im gonna mix my water/meth extra strong (more meth than usual) and add ice cubes in the water/meth tank. the extra strong mixture should also be extra cold. what do you guys think about this?

Put ice in a plastic bag, or a sealed container of some sort so as it melts it won't dilute the mixture. Or have the line for mixture running through a container of ice.

 

[BogusSVO]

Take the water/Meth tank, and put that into a larger tank that is filled with Dry Ice and Alcohol, that should drop the temp of your water/meth mix.

 

[91-GS]

Just remembered a trick where you add salt to regular ice. Somehow it makes the ice colder.

 

[talon2gbuyer]

Its been used to spray intercoolers forv years and no1 has ever blown up from it. Pretty sure its not going to blow up from a hot surface. Its gas not liquid. Gas doesn't ignite from a hot surface, its gas. It needs spark or open flame. Heat will just disperse it, not ignite it.

Not sure its going to explode from a hot surface, indicates that youd have it near the engine. Ergo, under the hood.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Not sure its going to explode from a hot surface, indicates that youd have it near the engine. Ergo, under the hood.

Actually meaning a spray bar. If your spraying the core with it its obviously gonna mix in the air under the hood. not the bottle under three hood. Again nobody said this. reason you dont want to use co2. I dont use it and I would never mount it under the hood. Even f&f wouldn't do that.
Getting of topic here.