Where is my Horsepower???

[90 EagleClaw]

I dont really get why my car is so slow. I have alot of work done and it seemed to be tuned ok but not perfect the day I raced it. I went 13.37@103mph, with a T3/T4 50 trim, FMIC, 650's, AFC, etc etc at about 22psi on 112 octane. Didnt have the logger with me. Now my car weighs 3300 with me in it, thats roughly 280HP to the wheels. I feel like I should have alot more then that. Could just minor tuning adjustments net a 50 or more HP gain? Cause otherwise I dont know what the problem is. After I raced I went home and checked things over and found my base timing to be slightly advanced at 8 BTDC, adjusted it back to 5. Went out and retuned it checking knock, egt's and whatever. Gtech'd it (i know) and went 0-60 in 4.73 at 18psi on pump gas. Didnt run a 1/4 yet. But even still, 4.73 0-60 seems like a low 13 1/4. So what the hell is the deal?? My best time with a stock 14b, IC and injectors was 13.66 at 99.8. I think I should have gained alot more then 3 tenths with my new setup. I'm going to try to race it again this sunday and will give an update, but before then could anyone give me some tips on what might be making my car run slow? Oh and I have no boost leaks that I know of, checked for it before I went racing, and my compression is 155 across. Thanks for any info.

 

[greathuskie]

maybe you cant drive very good?

 

[90 EagleClaw]

13.37@103 is right on pretty much. I could have launched harder but the track wasnt too sticky so I came out a little easy. Cant really ET too much better then that with that MPH I dont think, so I doubt its my driving. Also I forgot that I had blown out front shocks when I raced if that matters.

 

[mellojoe]

what kind of engine tuning do you have?

 

[90 EagleClaw]

S-AFC, Pocketlogger, EGT gauge, A/F gauge, Boost controller, timing light, ?? am i missing anything. My mods are in my profile.

 

[DSMJim]

Guys have run 1 full second quicker on your modifications, I am buying that very setup for my car and I am going to be very disappointed if I pull off low 13's with it. It should pull at least a mid 12...

I do agree with the others though your MPH does match your ET. I would also figure that 22psi on race gas would give more than 280hp as well. Should be more like 350-360hp imho. Anybody else?

Post out the times from your slip so we can see your 60ft and 1/8th mile et and MPH...

 

[JayHass]

Everyone slow down for a minute before jumping to conclusions.

90 EagleClaw, you left out the turbine side of your turbo. What are you running for a wheel and housing. That makes all the difference.

I can tell you right now if you have a .48 A/R and stage-III wheel that's right on the money.

Also just some freindly advice. When tuning a car and determining what works and what doesn't, don't mix sources. You mentioned the track, a hp calculator and a G-Tech. Stick with one and evaluate your gains/losses or you will be chasing your tail.

The G-Tech can be used very effectively, I tuned my RX-7 using the accelerometer function of the G-Tech, a video camera to video tape everything later in slow mo and basic formulas. I stayed with that same combination for consistency and eventually built a record setting (for the mods) Turbo-II for about $900.

 

[kpt4321]

Assuming it is an acepted sort of 50 trim combination, that car is WAY slow. My 14b'd car has done 12.9 @ 106 on race gas, and 13.3 on pump gas (17 psi). There is no way, with a 50 trim, FMIC< etc, you should be that slow.

Have you checked everything? Pressurize the intajke, to check for boost leaks. Check the compression.

How are you tuning? I have a strong conviction that is your problem...

 

[JayHass]

Yea but if the turbo is choking it won't make the power.

I don't care if you have a T88 compressor, if the turbine is too small the motor will not make power.

 

[90 EagleClaw]

Ok the turbo is T3/T04E 50trim/Stage3/.63A/R-bought it from DSMotorsport and they used that exact turbo to run 11 flat. Of course that is in a full race car but I dont think that the turbo is the problem. The worst part is that my Pocketlogger wasnt working the day I went, so I have no idea if I was in tune or not, it wasnt leaning out noticeably tho. But I have since put in an EGT guage and got the logger fixed so I will be able to see what is going on with the motor better. I will check again for boost leaks, i had put in a EGR block off a few days before I went so maybe it started leaking on the drive out to the track I dont know? But would a slight boost leak even make the car this slow? Im still getting full boost. Click on my profile if you are wondering about other mods, theyre all in there. Thanks

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by 90 EagleClaw
Ok the turbo is T3/T04E 50trim/Stage3/.63A/R

That turbo combination is fine. On a stone stock SR20DE with 9.5:1 pistons and 20psi that very turbo made 330whp.

Your problem surely lay elsewhere.

Having your base timing advanced could have caused the ECU to pull timing in a big way, you would be running very rich, you could have boost leaks, your cam could be a tooth off and way retarded and on and on.

I wish I could say something better but without a datalog it's really hard to say on a forum.

 

[90 EagleClaw]

Thanks for trying to help. I hope I can get to the track this weekend and actually get to log some runs. I did notice that even after I set the base timing back to 5 BTDC when I went out to check it with the logger I was getting some pretty big knock (20 somthing counts) in 4th gear at 18 psi. Maybe with the boost set even higher and the timing more advanced that translated to getting more knock and timing getting pulled out. Does anyone see a problem with my setup at all? Here is my timeslip (60 foot sucks cause I had to baby it out of the hole or else I would spin all the tires and the car launched sideways):

R/T...... .589
60'....... 2.084
330...... 5.758
1/8...... 8.753
MPH.... 84.79
1000.... 11.246
1/4.......13.377
MPH.....103.83

 

[JayHass]

The factory knock sensors are known to go bad and send false readings. That will retard your timing pretty bad which can affect hp dramatically. I gained roughly 40whp from a 5* bump in base timing in my SE-R. (365 to 409whp)

 

[DCJ98GST]

Originally posted by JayHass

I can tell you right now if you have a .48 A/R and stage-III wheel that's right on the money.

Jay,

It cant be that bad to have a .48 housing. The .48 housing is approx the same size as the turbine housing used in most of the FP Greens. The 7 cm is approx a .50 housing and people see alot more than 280 wheel hp on the green!

Oh and by the way I keep hearing AGP talk about that the 4 bolt housings flow more than the 5 bolt housings. They have gone as far as to say the 4 bolt .48 housings flow about the same as the old 5 bolt .63 housings. Can anybody back this up?

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by DCJ98GST


Jay,

It cant be that bad to have a .48 housing. The .48 housing is approx the same size as the turbine housing used in most of the FP Greens. The 7 cm is approx a .50 housing and people see alot more than 280 wheel hp on the green!

I understand what you are saying but it's not the same. One is a Mitsu housing and one is a Garrett housing.

Mitsu never has used A/R, it was DSM Performances "best calculation" that a 7cm2 housing ='s a .50 A/R. We all know how well the Mutts proved to be. :laugh:

I'm not just guessing at the .48 housing, I'm speaking from information given to me from a MUCH smarter source and from real life experiences.

I would never put a .48 housing on a T3/T4 hybrid. I know some do, but hey...people put huge wings for downforce on 115hp FWD cars too.

 

[DCJ98GST]

So its better to run a mitsu 7cm housing with a garrett wheel than a garrett .48 housing?

I guess that is what I am trying to find out. Which housing is better and is there any significant difference between the two. If not, than the Mutt ETE 32 seems a pretty good option. Full garret except the mitsu housing. Sould spool faster than the Green and flow about the same. But everybody disses the mutts and I dont know why. I have searched and people dont give any reason why they are disregarded?

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by DCJ98GST
So its better to run a mitsu 7cm housing with a garrett wheel than a garrett .48 housing?

Whoa, I never said that! If you undestand A/R you understand that it's not measuring the entire housing.

If you can go straight Garrett go for it, that's the best bet from that.

Regarding the Mutt, all I'm going to say is do a search for Mutt Walk and see what you come up with.

If you HAVE to go for a Mitsu flange I would look into FP or the new Buschur turbo's.

 

[90 EagleClaw]

I just thought that maybe my wastegate is hooked up wrong? I have a EBC and I have it hooked up to the intake manifold, and to the side wastegate port, the top port has nothing. But I just read somewhere that with an EBC it goes to the top, and the side port goes to vacuum? Could this be right? My boost control seems to be fine, although it does seem low, I have to turn the wastegate signal all the way to mild and turn the low boost setting all the way up just to get 17-18psi. Also the car is falling flat once full boost comes in, it feels like it doesnt gain any power as the RPMS go up after full boost hits.

 

[JayHass]

It sounds like it is hooked up wrong.

An improperly hooked up EBC can make boost response VERY lazy. There should also be a dip switch on the back to choose internal or external gate. (Depending on what model you have)

Not to mention it sounds like you have a fuzzy logic controller which learns the boost curve. Hooked up wrong, that can lead to weird turbo response.

 

[90 EagleClaw]

OK so i spent the day hooking up my wastegate every which way and nothing helped. I hooked it up how Greddy said to, and how Tial says to, (both are different) on there sites, in the end I got the best results with how it was before. Turbo pressure into boost controller in, outlet of boost cotroller to the side port of the wastegate. I have the Profec-B, no fuzzy logic. When I adjusted the dip switches for external gate it overboosted WAY too much, even when set to the "if overboosting occurs" setting. And this happend with it hooked to both the top and side ports. With the controller to the top port and the side port hooked up to vacuum the boost would be too low, even after turning everything on the controller all the way up, the most boost I got on the hi setting was 18 psi. After a while messing with it I disconnected the EBC, and hooked up a MBC but that didnt help either. So I went back to how it was. I am not getting full boost until about 5500 RPMS in 1st gear, around 5000 in second, and so on. This is wayyy to laggy for this turbo. I am lost at this point. Could it be the turbo itself is to blame? I just put this whole setup on in November and all the parts were new. It is the t3/t4 kit from DSMotorsports. Like I said i have good compression, no boost or exhaust leaks. I have been trying to mess with the AFC settings to no avail. If I lean it out I got alot of knock, the car seems to like being in the +% range even with a rewired 255 and 650 injectors. I guess the 2G mas is to blame for the car wanting more fuel? I just dont know WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG!!?? Sorry just pretty frustrated at this point. If anyone could think of anything please POST! And thanks Jay for trying to help me diagnose this thing.

 

[Bohrn]

I'd say you have too much boost, leading to too little timing.

Recently I tried running 91 octane to save some money, but once the boost came up, along with the revs, it was a DOG!! Thought I broke something first time.

That tank lasted me way too long, lemme tell ya

2G mas and 550s are supposed to be "the thing", so that should not be a problem.

any exhaust leaks at the manifold/head? Or mani/turbo/o2 housing? If so, you could be loosing pressure out there and not getting it into the turbo.

Plugged exhaust system, due to a dent, or soemthing?

Left a rag in the intercooler pipe? No disrespect meant, I'm sure you would love to have it be that easy.

When you say that it takes up to 5500 rpm for full boost, I really think flow somewhere.

Course I am newish to these cars, so I may be way out to lunch.

Best of luck tho...

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by Bohrn
I'd say you have too much boost, leading to too little timing.

Recently I tried running 91 octane to save some money, but once the boost came up, along with the revs, it was a DOG!! Thought I broke something first time.

Did you even read his post? He didn't say the car was a dog but that the turbo was way too laggy.

90 EagleClaw, when you say you set the dipswitch to external and you over boosted...that could be a sign of something because if you have and external gate, it needs to be set to external. I'm speaking from experience here, trust me!

I assume you have the wastegate divorced (open air vented) so you can hear if it's venting. It should be loud enough to "know" the thing is working.

The other thing that comes to mind is your BOV might be bad and blowing open. When I was shaking out my other car, I was boosting about 10-12psi and had no wastegate flow, and the boost controller was acting very strange. (turn the boost up it would go down, then up, turn it down to a point an it would go up etc etc) Turns out the HKS BOV I had mistakenly has a woosy spring in it and was runing WIDE OPEN and was controlling boost, NOT the wastegate. You couldn't hear it either so it's not like I was running around with a BOV going CHSSSSSSSS.

Just some other things to check. 5500rpm is totally unacceptable for that turbo unless you accidently got a stage-V wheel and .82 A/R turbine housing. With a BB center section on your turbo we saw boost onset at 2500rpm and full boost at 3500rpm with a 9.5:1 SR20DE

 

[90 EagleClaw]

Ok with the dip switches set for external it would boost past 22 and I would just let off the throttle at that point, so It seemed like the wastegate wasn't even hooked up. That was with the controller hooked to either the side or top ports, it didnt matter. Then I hooked up the wastegate the way Tial states which is "T" fitting out of the turbo compressor-1 hose to the side port, 1-hose to the boostcontroller IN. Then the boost controller OUT to the top port of the wastegate. This caused me to have no boost, like with the low setting on the ProfecB turned all the way up, I only got 12psi. On the high setting all the way up I got a little under 20, which means the most boost I could run is 20psi?? With it hooked up the way I originally had it, dip switches set for actuator type, and boost controller OUT hooked up to the side wastegate port, top port vented, I get alot more range of control. Low boost setting maxes out at 18-20psi, and high setting goes above that.

Now on to the possible BOV problem, I wouldnt doubt it, its a stock BOV, crushed. But, wouldnt I notice that it was leaking or staying open when I did the boost leak check? Also it does sound like its working, when ever I let off the throttle I hear the WHooSH. If it was stuck open could I even reach 20psi? On the highway in 4th gear I get full boost a little after 4000, but in 1st and 2nd on the launch full boost takes up to all the way to 6000 to come in sometimes. My wastgate has just a dump tube so I can hear when it opens.

OH and my intercooler is the now defunct SpoolinUp FMIC, the Cooler. Same exact core that DSM Performance sells. It is bottom to top flow.

 

[90 EagleClaw]

Ok I put in a Greddy TypeS and it didnt change anything. Sounds cooler though . So the last thing I can think of being wrong points to either the turbo or IC setup. My pipe out of the turbo is routed to the stock location and is 2 1/4", and my IC out pipe is short routed to the TB and is 2.5" Bottom piping looks like this:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/parts/icpics/rre1gickit01.jpg

But could that be the reason for such slow spoolup? If not I feel like maybe the turbo itself is messed up? But how can I even check for that? The wheel spins freely and there is a minimal amount of shaft wobble, which Im told is normal for Garretts.

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by 90 EagleClaw
But could that be the reason for such slow spoolup? If not I feel like maybe the turbo itself is messed up?

No that piping is fine. Because of packaging issues I had 2" going into the IC and it still made 409whp and spooled just fine.

Let me think about this some more, and maybe we can come up with a few more solutions.