Torn between Intake Manifolds

[toofast82]

In the next few weeks, I will be taking my clipped B16g a little further. I will be installing a set of HKS 264/272 cams along with some 1150cc injectors, larger fuel pump and AFPR. The plan is to run between 25-28psi on E85.

The problem is: I can't decide which intake manifold I have that I want to use.
Early this year, I picked up a used Venom SMIM for $100 with the intentions of using it.
I also have a Cyclone IM and a tested way of actuating it. The car is daily driven.

The part throttle benefits as well as better low-end performance is what appeals to me about the Cyclone.
I would expect that the Venom would shine on the top-end from 5500rpm+. I found a test from Turbo magazine where it picked up around 20hp/torque but didn't show the graph to see all around gains. They stated there was no loss above 4k rpm but who knows?
Galant 4G63 Power Tuning - Dyno Cell - Part 5 - Turbo Magazine | Turbo & High Tech Performance Magazine Article at Automotive.com

Typically 16g dynos tend to make their peak HP in the 5500-6500rpm range where it seems the stock or cyclone IM is well capable of and even possibly a perfect match for supporting this range. I've also seen a lot of the big power 16g cars are still using stock IMs as well.
I would expect to make more power from 5500+ if I go with the Venom, but will the gains be washed away by low end loss as well as poor street drivability.
I'm just possibly thinking that the Venom doesn't quite match the powerband that should be expected from the 16g and would be better suited when I put my HX40 on and am looking for a 5-8k rpm range. I also would think that a stock 6bolt longblock with 264/272 cams should have its highest VE ~ 5500-6000rpm where the Cyclone would be a better match.

Please don't leave comments like "Cyclone/Venom are garbage, Get a Magnus" etc. I already own both of them and got great deals on both.

Please also state some type of reason or explanation as to why you think which of these is better for my current setup

 

[No_Skillz]

I think you've pretty much answered your own questions. Cyclone has proven performance and reliability and will suit your needs well. When you go HX40, I doubt you would be sticking with either manifold for long.

 

[matthewdesigns]

I'm certainly not a 'big power' 16g car, but I'll chime in on what I'm up to, since I'm at a similar place. I made peak hp at 5000rpm, and peak torque at 4400rpm on stock 2g intake mani and cams/head (see sidebar). I have been looking into intake manis and cams as well, and as for the intake manifold I'm going to go with an Evo3. There's a great thread here, but the Cliffs are that it's a shortish runner design with a cylindrical plenum...damn near identical to an Evo8 intake mani, and those are apparently hard to beat. Not so short that it kills the low end and midrange, but shorter than/works better than the 1g at the top end. I already have a ported Evo3 exhaust mani, so I'm giving the intake a shot since they were designed to work together, and through a 2g-style head at that. I'm going to add a set of Kelford 272's to the mix as more money frees up, so that will ultimately get a lot more air moving through the motor. I've already got the fuel system and e85 running in it.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

7bolt head and evo 3 intake manifold. You will notice a difference.

 

[kottyking]

He's not gonna run a 7 bolt head on 1g. I would try to setup a cyclone manifold, and have a chip burned to actuate it if your serious about it.

 

[Mitchel63]

Why don't you try them both, since you have them, and find out which one works better for you?

 

[dsm-onster]

^^^ trial and error trumps theory.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Shouldn't take more than an hour to swap them anyways. I agree with trying both since you have them, and find out with gives the best bottom end w/o sacrificing top end.

 

[dsm-onster]

Have I only seen the one cyclone intake in the world with this characteristic, or is it true that all cyclone intakes have a better radiused entry to the runners than a 1g/2g intake manifold that basically just has a cast aluminum divider keeping one runner from the next at the plenum?. . .

 

[redtsi252]

you should try both

 

[turbo90gsx]

Agreed with everyone else, try them both. Make sure you get the cyclone manifold function 100% before you really decided. I think you will like the top end power a short runner sheet metal intake makes though.

 

[toofast82]

After much thought the other day after quite a few beers I decided to go with the Venom for now. It's installed other than I need some different lengths and sizes of vacuum hoses. So I should have it finished up tomorrow before work along with my impressions of it.
My reason for thinking was that I decided I wanted to take advantages of the increased upper end potential versus gains under 4500rpm with the cyclone. For now, I figured my 16g spools pretty fast as is and should make plenty of midrange torque whichever intake is on it. Regardless if you're racing, you're never really under 4k rpm anyways.

I did have a functional way of using the cyclone which I was activating the FPR solenoid with a Dakota check valve and the original cyclone actuator

 

[toofast82]

Have I only seen the one cyclone intake in the world with this characteristic, or is it true that all cyclone intakes have a better radiused entry to the runners than a 1g/2g intake manifold that basically just has a cast aluminum divider keeping one runner from the next at the plenum?. . .

It's possible the entry is radiused better but there are 8 separate inlets in the plenum. They are 8 separate runners also with a divider close to the outlet

 

[Black_Bullet]

I dont know much about the venum but a lightly ported cyclone sounds like a good match, especially since you already have it sitting there you might as well.
I almost bought a jmf mani but ended up waiting it out to finish more important things. Personally I may end up just getting the Hawver cast intake manifold for mines, Ive seen really good results with that on a 16g setup. In the end, intake manifold should reflect the rest of your build/mods list, and how high you are trying to make power... So that should be all you need to know on which mani to use. If you have both already then try them both.

 

[toofast82]

Well, got the car going with the Venom installed. Without making any changes in the tune, the car definitely feels stronger up top. It continues to pull past 7k rpm where before it begin to drop off at 6500rpm. Definitely noticable gains after 5500rpm and from 4k-5500rpm I would say its about the same, maybe the stock slightly outperforms it in this area? Unfortunately, I don't have any logs with airflow amounts to verify this. It was about 90* out also!

I am upset though because I had swapped in a set of used "1150cc FIC" injectors I bought over winter when putting the intake on. I rescaled them in the computer and played with a few different deadtimes and couldn't get the car to run. So I don't know if they are 1150cc now or even close for that matter? I popped my evo8 560ccs back in, reflashed the ecu and car fired right up. I was planning to switch to e85 but Ill have to hold off. I guess i'm going to send the injectors in somewhere and get them cleaned/flowed so i know for sure.

 

[toofast82]

I wanted to update this again. After driving for a few days with the Venom installed, I do feel that there is some midrange loss. It doesn't have that "hit" when you hit full boost from a roll in 2nd or 3rd gear. Also when shifting into 4th and you are in the 4-55oorpm range for longer than the other gears, I can feel a loss there. It feels like its missing that flat power curve it had with the stock intake. So i'm off work tomorrow and will be swapping on the Cyclone for testing.

 

[dsm-onster]

Be sure that you have good airflow logs of the venom manifold!

 

[toofast82]

Be sure that you have good airflow logs of the venom manifold!

Why do you say that?
I use MMSD which is the speed density variant of MMCD. It only logs psi and iat, no hertz, so there is no way of seeing airflow unfortunately

 

[matthewdesigns]

Could you grab a passenger and click off some acceleration times for a few rpm ranges then? Or maybe a good 70-90mph time for comparison? That will at least present a somewhat empirical look at the differences between manifolds, especially if you can time a run through the 'dead' spot.

 

[dsm-onster]

^^^ that's the reason why. I want to see the performance differences. Knowing where each unit actually flows what amount will help us decide exactly what the manifold will do.

Give me your different VE vs. rpm table that you have to adjust for the different manifolds (assuming you have jackel or ds-map since you're running MMSD)

 

[toofast82]

Give me your different VE vs. rpm table that you have to adjust for the different manifolds (assuming you have jackel or ds-map since you're running MMSD)

Actually, I tried to plug my logger in and it wasn't working for some reason. I'll try and get that sorted out in the morning. Funny thing is according to my wideband gauge, my a/fs actually stayed roughly the same, if anything a .1-.2 richer. I was expecting to have to add some fuel up top so i'm a little confused there. My lowend could use some fuel taken out, but that was the situation with the 1g intake too, just never really bothered to fine tune it because I was parts swapping soon.
I'm gonna try the cyclone out, but it was a little cooler out tonight and the car felt real good driving home from work

 

[toofast82]

Got the Cyclone installed and I like it alot
The difference in spoolup and lowend power is huge!
The intake feels better suited for the setup and has nice midrange power
It pulls very hard and quick to 6500rpm where it drops off slightly.
There is no loss in topend compared to a 1g intake like alot of people say, but I would say it makes less power from 6500-7krpm than the Venom, but that's expected with the shorter runners and much larger plenum. Everywhere else in the powerband, the sheer velocity of the Cyclone seems to outshine the other two intakes
I have it actuating at 4100rpm like the jdm ecu. I need to get out and do some tuning as i'm getting some knock from 3500-4krpm when the runners are closed from a "roll" in 3rd. From a roll in 1st, there is no knock. Still having issues with the logger, i'm not sure what's up with that
I can't believe this intake has such a bad rep in the dsm community. I'd take it over a 1g any day!
It would definitely help spoolup quite a bit on a decent sized turbo like a 50trim,hx35, and larger for a street car, also

 

[dsm-onster]

Sounds great! I'm really tempted to hunt one down.

 

[toofast82]

Sounds great! I'm really tempted to hunt one down.

I got mine for $50shipped so it was a no-lose situation.
I went to take my friend for a ride and for some reason the actuator wasn't opening the butterflies and the runners were staying shut. It was working great earlier in the day. I used the check-valve off of the Dodge Dakota that was mentioned in a thread on here. I'm assuming the issue is somewhere with that most likely. I'm running it off of the FPR solenoid.
Even with the runners open all the time, I really like this intake. I don't know if there is less turbulence because there is 8 separate runners maybe? It does appear to be a nicely radiused entry to the runners inside the plenum as you asked earlier.
I definitely won't be putting the Venom back on, I know that. I'd like to see some spoolup differences on something like an hx35 or hx40,etc

 

[Black_Bullet]

Well speak of the devil, I just got offered a working cyclone for 60bucks and even though I was looking at other intakes on the market, I thought about it for a couple seconds and say hell with it, Im trying to save some money here, so I got it. So I guess this is what Ill be running now. Its ready to bolt on and go, but I dont know what rpm the actuators will activate at this point. Im glad to hear you like yours over the 1g even with it not working properly, makes me not hesitant about using it, and also Ill have a hx40 going on when this e316g comes off - and with the extra lag of the hx40 it may be a great choice after all since Im now only looking for low 400whp.