flywheel or pulleys

[jdmawd]

which do you guys think is a better next mod. i really don't like the idea of slowing down the coolant flow to the motor, or less current from the alternator with my fan setup (both fans run continuously) i have no idea why they both run, they just always have. so since the motor is out, doing the flywheel now maybe more cost effective then doing it later.

 

[kilurv8]

I say flywheel. You will be extremly happy with it. The motor revs so much faster, and in turn will spool your turbo faster. I only say don't get a lightened stock one, get a fidanza/clutchmasters one. I would also stay away from a JUN. Also, if you do a lot of driving in traffic, then dont do the flywheel as you will not be able to creep forward in traffic.

 

[ProjectGSX]

I say do it, regardless. My GF has a super light flywheel on her car and driving in bumper to bumper traffic is no big deal.

 

[GRNDSM]

I would stay away from underdrive pulleys unless they you get one of those with harmonic damper build in…

As for the FW. It is primarily a road racing/AutoXing mods. I guess it does make engine “rev happier”, but it also makes your car more difficult to launch. It stores less energy so you have to rev. higher to achieve the same launch. This “higher” rpm level is not always easy to come-up with. So until you do, you be doing a lot of bouging or spinning out of the box.

Back in ’99, we played around with stock (~20lbs), JUN (~9lbs) and lightened stock FW (~15lbs) on mid 11 sec car. We found that stock FW gave us the most consistent launches. Lightened stock FW was just slightly worse than stock and JUN was very tricky (I did not like it at all).

Another observation was that we did not notice any improvement as a result of going with a lighter FW per any ¼ indicators. It “felt” better, but did not translate into faster ETs or trap speeds. Kind of goes to show what your “feeling” is worth… So I have been racing 11 sec car with stock FW ever since.

The problem that I am now running into is that I need to get SFI rated FW in order to compete (IHRA/NHRA are slowly catching up to us). So I am going to have to switch over (reluctantly) to a lightened FW, SFI approved FW. But I am not going to pull my tranny just to do it, I will install it the next time I have my tranny out for a clutch job, or the next time I blow my tranny (whichever comes first .

 

[jdmawd]

awesome, thanks for the input. it sounds like a flywheel is a bad idea.

 

[NosLaser]

An aluminum flywheel is a good idea from a safety standpoint alone. I am a big believer in heavier flywheels being better for power deilvery, however when the power, heat, and rpm get high, you want the safest rotating assembly possible. Having PERSONALLY exploded a stock un-lightened flywheel at 7K rpm, I definately recommend an aluminum flywheel. If they made one that was stock weight, even better, but I seriously doubt anyone does.

As far as the damper pulley, I think a lot of people are throwing around ideas without really analyzing it. The popular opinion is "it's dampened from the factory for a reason!" Okay... why? So when you put the power down, the rubber 'damepning' in the pulley doesn't put added stress on the accesory belts and/or crank when the shock of torque is sent through the motor. Basically, it absorbs the initial shock. The popular argument against a solid pulley is that is puts stress on the crank. Why? How? Picture a 35 pound steel crank spinning at 6K rpm, with a pulley directly bolted to it. You mean to tell me those rubber accessory belts (which can logically be the ONLY source of 'stress' of any kind) are going to influence that 35 pound piece of steel, when coupled with the speed of 6K rpm is prolly putting out thousands of pounds of force? Two 1/4 inch thick pieces of rubber are the only things there to put 'stress' on the crank. You don't think the belts will stretch, or worst case scenario, break long before they bend a 35 pound steel crankshaft? Think about that one for a second...

Alright Grndsm, tell me how wrong I am!

Regards,

 

[NosLaser]

Jdm,

Hpe this helps answer your question.

Regards,

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by NosLaser
Jdm,

Hpe this helps answer your question.

Regards,

very well said, you're ability to clairify a situation or problem is amazing.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[GRNDSM]

>Okay... why?

Look at factory technical manual. It is there to dampen harmonics in the crankshaft.

>The popular argument against a solid pulley is that is puts stress on the crank. Why? How?

If you do not understand the concept of engine harmonics, then you have no business building engines (as you claim you do).

>Picture a 35 pound steel crank spinning at 6K rpm, with a pulley directly bolted to it.
>You mean to tell me those rubber accessory belts (which can logically be the ONLY
>source of 'stress' of any kind) are going to influence that 35 pound piece of steel,
>when coupled with the speed of 6K rpm is prolly putting out thousands of pounds of force?

Who said anything about the accessory belts? I certainly didn’t. Companies who sell solid underdrive pulleys back up their product with a claim that rubber in stock damper is there to provide damping in the accessory belts. That is BS! So if anything, you are supporting my point of view .

>Two 1/4 inch thick pieces of rubber are the only things there to put 'stress' on the crank.
>You don't think the belts will stretch, or worst case scenario, break long before they bend
>a 35 pound steel crankshaft? Think about that one for a second...

I give up, I have no idea what you are trying to say…

> tell me how wrong I am!

I think that you are, but I can’t be sure… You lost me when you started to discredit a reason people use to discredit REAL harmonic dampers…

I already pointed to this link before the last time this topic came up, but hopefully it might help you understand a thing or two:

http://www.dinanbmw.com/html/danger_of_power_pulleys.htm

JDMAWD wrote:

>very well said, you're ability to clairify a situation or problem is amazing.

Are you for real? NOSLASER just spewed a bunch of nonsense and are applauding him? Unless I fail to detect a note sarcasm...

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by GRNDSM
>Okay... why?

Look at factory technical manual. It is there to dampen harmonics in the crankshaft.

>The popular argument against a solid pulley is that is puts stress on the crank. Why? How?

If you do not understand the concept of engine harmonics, then you have no business building engines (as you claim you do).

>Picture a 35 pound steel crank spinning at 6K rpm, with a pulley directly bolted to it.
>You mean to tell me those rubber accessory belts (which can logically be the ONLY
>source of 'stress' of any kind) are going to influence that 35 pound piece of steel,
>when coupled with the speed of 6K rpm is prolly putting out thousands of pounds of force?

Who said anything about the accessory belts? I certainly didn’t. Companies who sell solid underdrive pulleys back up their product with a claim that rubber in stock damper is there to provide damping in the accessory belts. That is BS! So if anything, you are supporting my point of view .

>Two 1/4 inch thick pieces of rubber are the only things there to put 'stress' on the crank.
>You don't think the belts will stretch, or worst case scenario, break long before they bend
>a 35 pound steel crankshaft? Think about that one for a second...

I give up, I have no idea what you are trying to say…

> tell me how wrong I am!

I think that you are, but I can’t be sure… You lost me when you started to discredit a reason people use to discredit REAL harmonic dampers…

I already pointed to this link before the last time this topic came up, but hopefully it might help you understand a thing or two:

http://www.dinanbmw.com/html/danger_of_power_pulleys.htm

JDMAWD wrote:

>very well said, you're ability to clairify a situation or problem is amazing.

Are you for real? NOSLASER just spewed a bunch of nonsense and are applauding him? Unless I fail to detect a note sarcasm...

No sarcasm, it just made sense. I will be the first to admit I know zero about engine harmonics. noslaser's comments seemed plausible ive always been a buy it, tune it, and drive it type of guy. engine dynamics have never been my focus point

 

[NosLaser]

...>The popular argument against a solid pulley is that is puts stress on the crank. Why? How?

If you do not understand the concept of engine harmonics, then you have no business building engines (as you claim you do). ....

Oh Christ. I was playing Devil's Advocate here. I wasn't honestly asking 'why? how?' I understand engine harmonics, and things such as crankshaft deflection, etc. but I didn't want to get that technical (since technical discussions fall on dear ears with most DSM'ers.) I was answering it on a very basic level. You hear every day that it's bad to change the damper pulley. When you ask them why, they say I dunno, I just heard it's bad. See where I was going with that?

Here are a few snippets from the site you directed me to. I must first ask why, if upgraded pulleys are so bad, that the Mustang guys and Camaro guys have been using them without hindrance for the last 15+ years?

...If the RPM remains at or near one of the major criticals for any length of time, fatigue failure of the crankshaft is probable. Major critical RPM’s are dangerous, and either must be avoided or properly damped. Additionally, smaller but still serious problems can result from an undamped crankshaft. The oscillation of the crankshaft at a major critical speed will commonly sheer the front crank pulley and the flywheel from the crankshaft. ...

These aren't blanket statements either. It clearly says that fatigue failure is probable at critical rpm's. I do agree that to do it right, you should install the damper pulley when you are building a motor, because that way you can have the crank and damper balanced as an assembly if you are using a solid pulley. Therefore, you can balance the motor at those critical rpms, 3k, 6k, whatever they may be.

...Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity....

The aluminum that most aftermarket pullies are made of will dissipate heat quite nicely. I've had a solid pulley on my car for over a year now with no problems. I think it's a bit too much of a blanket statement to say that they are bad, and will only cause problems. I was arguing the fact that most people think the only stress on the pulley comes from the belts wrapped around it, so I used that angle to make a point. I still stand firm on the notion that it's not a bad upgrade.

Regards,

 

[Sartuche24]

Not trying to start anything and I don't know much about automotive engineering. If it was me I would buy a light aluminized harmonic damper just to be safe. This would save me from having to buy a new engine in long run. The damper is there for a reason and why would you tke it off to gain a few hp and possilby ruining your engine. For people like me that don't have money to throw away for a new engine I think it's just a good safety factor. some cars have a damper that is seperate from the crankshaft so if they lightened the crank pulley but keep the damper then they shouldn't have any problems with there engine. Just having that extra insurance that the pulley isn't going to ruin my engine is all worth the wild. Like I said I don't know much about harmonics but that damper was put there by people who have a degree in automotive engineering and I would have to say they know what they are doing. Are you willing to ruin your car for a few horsepower by putting a solid pulley on it or gain a few horsepower with one that has a damper in it which will absorb the harmonics and also give you insurance that your engine isn't going to be ruined by some company that say's it won't ruin your engine. You gain about the same horsepower and also have what the engineers that built the car had in mind for absorbing the harmonics that the car produces. These are my thoughts on the subject and believe it's the best for our engines. Are engines have enough problems why would you want to make more. I can understand what noslaser is saying, everybody has there own opinion and for you to make up your mind you will have to try what you think is the best for you. When I buy the lightened pulleys I'm going to get one that has a damper just because I don't want my engining messing up on me.

 

[cmc]

Flywheel= GOOD throttle response. That is what I would do, and plan to do once I get my injectors back in, AFC hooked up, and Cams. Good luck!

 

[NDgsx]

"If you do not understand the concept of engine harmonics, then you have no business building engines (as you claim you do). ....

Oh Christ. I was playing Devil's Advocate here. I wasn't honestly asking 'why? how?' I understand engine harmonics, and things such as crankshaft deflection, etc. but I didn't want to get that technical (since technical discussions fall on dear ears with most DSM'ers..."

ROTFL :laugh: Man I know I can always count on Aslan for a good laugh.
Don't f*cking lie, you don't know how engine harmonics work. You are not a mechanical engineer (note that I never said I was, I did take two years for it, but never got to that point). Oh wait I forgot, this is Aslan, now all of a sudden you will have a masters in ME from MIT
If you understood harmonics you would have at least touched on that in your first post. Technical discussions may fall deaf, but you love nothing more than sounding really important using some "technical" terminology while usually making points that are flat out wrong.

"you should install the damper pulley when you are building a motor, because that way you can have the crank and damper balanced as an assembly if you are using a solid pulley."

Install the damper pulley? Hmm this is news to me, what does this piece do, get the timing belt wet? Or did you mean dampener as in to reduce vibration? Then it gets even more retarded when you say "if you are using a sold pulley". You were just talking about a "damper pulley" being balanced with the crank and then the next second you are talking about a solid pully. So which pulley are we balancing here, a harmonic dampener type or the unorthodox solid type?

"...Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity....

The aluminum that most aftermarket pullies are made of will dissipate heat quite nicely. "

Oh god I'm laughing so hard I think my spleen is ruptured. You really don't get it. The rubber dampener transfers the mechanical engergy (ie vibrations) into heat. Remember energy can not be created, nor destroyed, only it's form changed. So why the hell is a solid pulley going to be dissipating heat? It has no way of converting the mechanical engergy.

"I've had a solid pulley on my car for over a year now with no problems. I think it's a bit too much of a blanket statement to say that they are bad, and will only cause problems. "

Wait I thought your car burned down? Oh yeah of course there won't be any problems when you don't even have a running dsm.

I've seen two 4G63 cranks that broke. Both broke by the #4 rod journal. Both had UR pulleys.
I used to have a UR pulley and you know what? It really didn't make a difference in response or power. Why bother?

For high 11sec cars and slower there is nothing wrong with a lightened stock flywheel (assuming it's in good shape to start with). Assuming you are running a full face disc, puck discs create a lot more heat which leads to cracks. Also stay away from the JDM flywheels, many of them are thinner than the USDM flywheels.

If you feel the need to flame me that's fine, but for gods sake stay on the subject and come up with rebutals to MY points. Every time someone calls BS on you the response goes off on some tangent that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by NDgsx
"If you do not understand the concept of engine harmonics, then you have no business building engines (as you claim you do). ....

Oh Christ. I was playing Devil's Advocate here. I wasn't honestly asking 'why? how?' I understand engine harmonics, and things such as crankshaft deflection, etc. but I didn't want to get that technical (since technical discussions fall on dear ears with most DSM'ers..."

ROTFL :laugh: Man I know I can always count on Aslan for a good laugh.
Don't f*cking lie, you don't know how engine harmonics work. You are not a mechanical engineer (note that I never said I was, I did take two years for it, but never got to that point). Oh wait I forgot, this is Aslan, now all of a sudden you will have a masters in ME from MIT
If you understood harmonics you would have at least touched on that in your first post. Technical discussions may fall deaf, but you love nothing more than sounding really important using some "technical" terminology while usually making points that are flat out wrong.

"you should install the damper pulley when you are building a motor, because that way you can have the crank and damper balanced as an assembly if you are using a solid pulley."

Install the damper pulley? Hmm this is news to me, what does this piece do, get the timing belt wet? Or did you mean dampener as in to reduce vibration? Then it gets even more retarded when you say "if you are using a sold pulley". You were just talking about a "damper pulley" being balanced with the crank and then the next second you are talking about a solid pully. So which pulley are we balancing here, a harmonic dampener type or the unorthodox solid type?

"...Crankshaft failure can be prevented by mounting some form of vibration damper at the front end of the crankshaft that is capable of absorbing and dissipating the majority of the vibratory energy. Once absorbed by the damper the energy is released in the form of heat, making adequate cooling a necessity....

The aluminum that most aftermarket pullies are made of will dissipate heat quite nicely. "

Oh god I'm laughing so hard I think my spleen is ruptured. You really don't get it. The rubber dampener transfers the mechanical engergy (ie vibrations) into heat. Remember energy can not be created, nor destroyed, only it's form changed. So why the hell is a solid pulley going to be dissipating heat? It has no way of converting the mechanical engergy.

"I've had a solid pulley on my car for over a year now with no problems. I think it's a bit too much of a blanket statement to say that they are bad, and will only cause problems. "

Wait I thought your car burned down? Oh yeah of course there won't be any problems when you don't even have a running dsm.

I've seen two 4G63 cranks that broke. Both broke by the #4 rod journal. Both had UR pulleys.
I used to have a UR pulley and you know what? It really didn't make a difference in response or power. Why bother?

For high 11sec cars and slower there is nothing wrong with a lightened stock flywheel (assuming it's in good shape to start with). Assuming you are running a full face disc, puck discs create a lot more heat which leads to cracks. Also stay away from the JDM flywheels, many of them are thinner than the USDM flywheels.

If you feel the need to flame me that's fine, but for gods sake stay on the subject and come up with rebutals to MY points. Every time someone calls BS on you the response goes off on some tangent that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Cant you make a point without starting a flame war.

What does the status of noslasers car have to do with the topic? so what if his car burned up in a fire. Thanks for turning my topic in to a wit battle between you and noslaser. NEWS FLASH nobody cares if you don't like noslaser. either post relevant points or dont. Thanks again for ruining my topic with you're riceworld.com flame fest post

 

[MitsuE95GST]

Hey JDMAWD, thought I would show you this video to help you pick what you chose what you want, http://www.code12.org/video/misc/markc_talonflywheelexplosion.mpg I just got my RRE lightened flywheel and it makes me feel kind of scared having it but, it helps with the lowend alot. After doing so many mods that move the power to the upper RPM band you can easily tell what things help out the low end.

 

[NosLaser]

...ROTFL Man I know I can always count on Aslan for a good laugh.
Don't f*cking lie, you don't know how engine harmonics work. You are not a mechanical engineer (note that I never said I was, I did take two years for it, but never got to that point). Oh wait I forgot, this is Aslan, now all of a sudden you will have a masters in ME from MIT
If you understood harmonics you would have at least touched on that in your first post. Technical discussions may fall deaf, but you love nothing more than sounding really important using some "technical" terminology while usually making points that are flat out wrong. ...

Good morning cockbreath. I figured I'd see your dumb ass in here. In a few minutes, the NABR guys will be here, and we'll have another ball. And then Tev will come in and say I'm nailing myself to a cross. This is so fun! No, I'm not a mechanical engineer, and no, I don't have a degree in mechanical engineering. But I can hold my own when it comes to understanding engine harmonics. I don't care to prove myself to you because you are Nick Drake, some loud mouth ***** little peon that I could care less about. Does that make you feel better? Yes I'm flaming you because like you to me, I don't like you either. You argue for the sake of arguing, and never contribute anything helpful to a conversation other than to make yourself look like some internet bad ass. What you really look like is some little guido sound set extra from dirty dancing. Do you have a gf? Does your mom even kiss you at night?

...Install the damper pulley? Hmm this is news to me, what does this piece do, get the timing belt wet? Or did you mean dampener as in to reduce vibration? Then it gets even more retarded when you say "if you are using a sold pulley". You were just talking about a "damper pulley" being balanced with the crank and then the next second you are talking about a solid pully. So which pulley are we balancing here, a harmonic dampener type or the unorthodox solid type? ...

This was a typing fast terminology error. I simply meant the crank pulley. Sorry I called it a damper pulley. But, since this is Nick 'everything Aslan says I must take it upon myself to disagree with' Drake, I shouldn't put it past you to nitpick on something so stupid.

...Wait I thought your car burned down? Oh yeah of course there won't be any problems when you don't even have a running dsm. ....

I'm going to fast forward you from the year 2000. Hello, McFly?? I've been driving a 1993 Talon Turbo for quite some time now.

I'm done arguing with you. It does nothing but piss me off, and it's not worth it arguing with some little kid with a hardon on the internet. If you want to have it out with me in person, then let's go Nicky boy. If not, then shut the f*ck up, and pretend I don't exist here, or on any other message board you decide to follow me to just to start sh*t.

 

[gst_spyder]

Ouch that vid is scary... didn't know it would cause that much damage A scatter shield just went on my list

Mario

 

[GRNDSM]

Aslan,

When I first got into a couple arguments with you I thought that you were a somewhat knowledgeable DSMer who’s views were different from my. Great, nothing wrong with that, I always enjoy a heated technical discussion.. Then you started to come off as a bit of jerk. Oh, well, you admitted that and I guess everyone has their own personality when they post. So I thought can deal with people like you, as have done many times in the past.

But this topic showed to me that you not only incompetent in some engine dynamics matters (nothing wrong with it, as this is not SAE board), but you will argue your erroneous points with the same intensity as if you actually knew what you were talking about.

This, to me, is where I draw the line. I would advise others to be highly skeptical of your recommendations, as sometimes you really have no idea what you are talking about. Many novices might not see the difference between the real useful info and total BS…

“pretend I don't exist here”

I think that I will follow your recommendation from now on…

As for lightened FWs. I have seen shops claim that they can perform FW lightening “properly”. And I can see them doing it “100% perfect”. But they are starting with a stock FW, which is known to explode in full weight form (granted, this happens on very rare occasions). Lightening them will not improve this situation, no matter how well it is done. I can not see why any shop would want to take on such liability…

I would not use one in my 11 sec. car. But if I had 13 or even 12 sec car I might consider using it, but only from the most reputable source.

 

[jdmawd]

Good morning cockbreath. I figured I'd see your dumb ass in here. In a few minutes,

:laugh:

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by gst_spyder
Ouch that vid is scary... didn't know it would cause that much damage A scatter shield just went on my list

Mario

im not at my home computer, i down loaded it, but i cant seem to find windows media player on this computer. as soon as i get home i will check it out thanks in advance

 

[kilurv8]

Did Someone Burp? Cockbreath That is classic

 

[IPT]

Originally posted by kilurv8
Did Someone Burp? Cockbreath That is classic

MAO..:laugh:

 

[NDgsx]

"Good morning cockbreath."

Hey man I'm sorry about that. See I needed money for my car, your dad gave me a call. Seems your a**hole is too loose and he's not having fun anymore. I needed money for my car and he pays very well.

"I figured I'd see your dumb ass in here."

In case you're blind I've already posted in a few threads. God forbid I was agreeing with you on two of them too.

"But I can hold my own when it comes to understanding engine harmonics. I don't care to prove myself to you because you are Nick Drake, some loud mouth ***** little peon that I could care less about. Does that make you feel better? "

Yes it does. You're running out of cool buzwords and pretty soon you'll be telling us how a bad pulley throws off the alignment of the magnaflux converter, or something equally stupid.

"Yes I'm flaming you because like you to me, I don't like you either. You argue for the sake of arguing, and never contribute anything helpful to a conversation"

Um yeah maybe you should do some searching and reconsider. I'm not gods gift to automotive performance, but I have helped a hell of a lot of people out.

"other than to make yourself look like some internet bad ass.
What you really look like is some little guido sound set extra from dirty dancing. Do you have a gf? Does your mom even kiss you at night?"

No, no. They won't speak to me because of your dad, he asks to much time from me. Pretty soon I'll be able to afford a GT2.

"This was a typing fast terminology error. I simply meant the crank pulley. Sorry I called it a damper pulley. But, since this is Nick 'everything Aslan says I must take it upon myself to disagree with' Drake, I shouldn't put it past you to nitpick on something so stupid."

Actually anyone who reads your post will see that it was very well thought out. You spent time writing that, not just 10 seconds.

"I'm going to fast forward you from the year 2000. Hello, McFly?? I've been driving a 1993 Talon Turbo for quite some time now."

Cool, so has it made 500hp on a 14b and nitrous yet?

"I'm done arguing with you. "

Crap I guess I'll have to get cable again, you were my replacement for comedy central.

"It does nothing but piss me off, and it's not worth it arguing with some little kid with a hardon on the internet. If you want to have it out with me in person, then let's go Nicky boy."

No I don't want to "have it with you", your dad already has too many times. I will race you, real racing no street racing BS.

Well Florida is a bit far, how about meeting halfway? Tell you what though, neither of our cars will be running well by the shootout. So let's plan on next year. You vs. me, heads up (not bracket racing). You win I pay you $1000. I win you promise to never post on any car related internet boards, under any name, EVER. Yes I'm serious. I can send the money to a neutral "mediator" through an escrow service or something of the sort. They will have the money before either of us leave for the shootout.
Here are the conditions:
both cars must weigh in at 2950 w/o driver or more
engine displacement may not exceed 2 liters (not 4G64 or stroker crank)
cars must both be running full exhausts with mufflers
only z rated tires, no drag radials.

Deal or are you scared to actually race?

 

[IPT]

Please both of you grow up. This is stupid. I love to argue and all, but this has gone too far. Do this stuff with PMs.