.48 vs. .63 a/r lag and power

[TheHater]

I'm trying to convince 2 of my frieds to dump there .48a/r for a bigger .63.

Setup #1: 2g fwd
to4s 57 trim, .48 w/a stage 3 wheel

setup #2: 2g awd
to4e 50 trim, .48 w/a stage 3 wheel

Both have HKS cams 264/272(1) and 272/272(2), sfp mani's w/35mm tial dumping to the atm, fmic, inj,2g tb/intakes, unported 2g heads, etc.

Basicaly I need some more backup because both are afraid that it will be to "laggy".

#1 setup is fast, but nowhere near as fast as it should be.
#2 isnt running yet, but another local in a 1g awd w/a 7.8:1 jdm motor gets full spool ~4k w/the #2 setup, except .63 exhaust housing. So in realisticaly the #2 setup should spool up quicker because of the 8.5:1 compression.

I'm looking for personal trials, dyno's, et, mph to back me up. Also anyone w/experience using the PTE housings, and if they can be swapped for the garrett 4 bolt housings. Ive heard only good things about the PTE housings.

Thanks,
Mac M.

 

[Jason's TSI]

I switched from a .48 to a .63, and then to a .82 A/R on my 57trim to4e/stage III. The car spooled TOO fast with the .48, I don't need full boost by 3500rpm, how much time do I spend below 5000rpm at full throttle? Almost none. There was a BIG increase in power when I switched to a .63 A/R, and the lag was perfectly acceptable IMO. So I went even bigger with a .82 A/R, but it did make as much of a difference, and spool up time was still fine. I ran pretty much the same times with the .63 and the .82 (mid 11's off the bottle@120mph, low 11's on the bottle@126mph).

 

[candela]

Where at in Phoneix you from hater? I live in N. Phoenix... Ive never seen you around unless Im mistakedn. Anyhow why does that dude have the t04S? Anyhow, jason is right Ive only been in 50trim/57 trim .63 cars before but that lag was ~3800 full spool and that really not bad for the increase in topend you get from switching...

 

[TheHater]

Candela:
You know me, I have the silver 95 gst, I'm Mac. We ####ed around on 32nd street a while back and I've seen you at a few SWDSM meets. Did you get that motor in?

The 57trim is spyder's on the site, another local guy. The white spyder w/the bling bling 19" chrome rims, dvd player, etc.

About the to4s, it was put together by the POS shop MAX REV in tempe, who can suck a fatty. They are the worst shop when it comes to dsm's. The compressor housing would barely fit w/an SFP/agp mani made for more clearance for the garrett combos.

Jason's TSI:
what is your apprx spool w/the .63? Say a 3rd gear pull from low rpm?

I know that the .63 would be a nice gain to both, but they are both afraid of lag.

 

[Jason's TSI]

With the .63 it would start making boost around 3100rpm, lag was not a problem, which is why I went even bigger with the turbine housing.

 

[90 EagleClaw]

I have a .63 on my 90 Talon with a 50 trim compressor and the lag is horrible. I was told to go with a .48 housing. What compression are you running with the .63 to get it spooled that early? I am stock 7.8:1

 

[Jason's TSI]

My compression is 9.0 to 1. What manifold are you using? If you are using a mitsu manifold with an adapter plate that would cause a lot of lag.

 

[larryd]

Originally posted by 90 EagleClaw
I have a .63 on my 90 Talon with a 50 trim compressor and the lag is horrible. I was told to go with a .48 housing. What compression are you running with the .63 to get it spooled that early? I am stock 7.8:1

I had full spool on my 50trim Stage III .63AR with 8.5:1 compression by 4000 with the car completely untuned.

 

[90 EagleClaw]

8.5:1 and 4000 is still pretty laggy and might explain why mine is even worse at 7.8:1 comp. But I might have a combination of things wrong, I might also have the wrong cams in the car, im trying to figure that out now. Im going to try going with a .48 housing to see how much it helps though, since its easier then doing cams.

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by Jason's TSI
I switched from a .48 to a .63, and then to a .82 A/R on my 57trim to4e/stage III. The car spooled TOO fast with the .48, I don't need full boost by 3500rpm, how much time do I spend below 5000rpm at full throttle? Almost none. There was a BIG increase in power when I switched to a .63 A/R, and the lag was perfectly acceptable IMO. So I went even bigger with a .82 A/R, but it did make as much of a difference, and spool up time was still fine. I ran pretty much the same times with the .63 and the .82 (mid 11's off the bottle@120mph, low 11's on the bottle@126mph).

THANK YOU. I get sick of arguing with people that .48 housings are too small for a hybrid T3/T4 application. Boost onset is to violent and you end up with a smaller power curve that looks like a spike at the beginning and a dip at the top.

If you are running big cams, it's all the more important to use a nice free flowing housing so you don't choke the cams power potential up top.

FYI I gained *80* whp going from a .63 housing to a .82 housing with a 76 trim stage-III turbine wheel and a 50 trim T04E compressor in a .50 housing. Same boost, same dyno, same tune.

When the turbine chokes, it really doesn't matter how big of a compressor you have. Power gains will be minimal.

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by 90 EagleClaw
I have a .63 on my 90 Talon with a 50 trim compressor and the lag is horrible. I was told to go with a .48 housing. What compression are you running with the .63 to get it spooled that early? I am stock 7.8:1

Remember this thread?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42241&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

How about you find out what's wrong with your car first before making a statement about what works and what doesn't? Just and idea.

 

[90 EagleClaw]

Yes I remember the thread, obviously this is what Im trying to figure out. I have taken my car to 2 different DSM specialist shops, and we have checked EVERYTHING with the car. The last shop I was at, after checking everything over, we went out for a test drive. He said my car felt exactly like another DSM that was running a Hahn super20G, and when they switched the car to a 57trim T3/T4 with a .48 housing, it picked up a ton of power and spooled 2000 rpms sooner. So they suggested I try it out to run a .48 housing, they did say if I had higher then stock compression and aftermarket cams then the .63 would be better suited for that, but they think it is too big for a bone stock 1G motor. All I can do is try it and see, if that doesnt work, then I will try changing the cams to stock turbo cams because they said the only other reason they could see this happening is that I might have NT cams in the car. Too much overlap would cause the turbo to not spool up, and my car was a timing belt victim before it was mine, so who knows if the shop that fixed it bolted on a NT or Auto head? All i can do is try differnt parts, cause everything else with the engine and tuning is in line...

 

[Z1500]

Jay,
Was that on cams designed for a turbo or N/A? It makes all the differance in the world. Can you post both dyno graphs?

Kevin
AGP Turbo

 

[larryd]

Originally posted by 90 EagleClaw
8.5:1 and 4000 is still pretty laggy and might explain why mine is even worse at 7.8:1 comp. But I might have a combination of things wrong, I might also have the wrong cams in the car, im trying to figure that out now. Im going to try going with a .48 housing to see how much it helps though, since its easier then doing cams.

Wow you think thats laggy? I guess I just got used to it where anything before that seems like insta boost now. I also spend hardly anytime below 4000rpms anway

 

[90 EagleClaw]

Originally posted by Z1500
Jay,
Was that on cams designed for a turbo or N/A? It makes all the differance in the world. Can you post both dyno graphs?

Kevin
AGP Turbo

How can you tell if you have NT or turbo cams by looking at them??? Or even auto cams for that matter

 

[Z1500]

You can't tell just looking at them. If your car came from the factory with a turbo then they are turbo cams.

Kevin
AGP Turbo

 

[JayHass]

Originally posted by Z1500
Jay,
Was that on cams designed for a turbo or N/A? It makes all the differance in the world. Can you post both dyno graphs?

Kevin
AGP Turbo

Good question. First off this was not on a 4G63, but a SR20DE BUT they are so similar in regard to displacement, VE and RPM range it's really splitting a fine hair.

Second, the cams were designed for a NA application BUT they were very turbo friendly. Not much overlap, decent duration, BIG lift, LOTS of area under the curve (Think of how a square cam lobe would benefit and you get the idea)

Third, I don't have the final 409whp pull on line anymore. I sold my old company and domain and havn't set all my files up on my new domain. Sorry.

 

[smokehouse_83]

Has anyone ever even really looked at the auto cams? Because when I put a auto engine in my car to replace my timing belt victim engine I felt a big increase in power, but this could be due to better compression or something. But there is always that change that the auto cams are different in a good way. Now I can spin all 4 tires into second gear with a stock fuel system and a small 16g at stock boost creaping up and a 2.5 inch exaust. Oh and the mani and o2 sensor housing are ported, man I cant even stay out of the boost I seriously cant drive my car normaly anymore it starts spooling and pulling I have to shift at like 2000 rpm's to stay out of boost but then is bogs out. But anyway I dont think there is a difference in auto or manual cams.

Drw

 

[BlitzMR2]

Originally posted by Jason's TSI
My compression is 9.0 to 1. What manifold are you using? If you are using a mitsu manifold with an adapter plate that would cause a lot of lag.

Why would that cause lag?

I have been going through a similar situation with my MR2T. I am trying to size my T3/T4. I do want nice spool, but the point made about never spending much time below 4k was well-taken. I downshift.

FWIW, I settled on an ITS Dual Ball Bearing T04E-50, with a .48 hot side and Stage 5 wheel (Stage 3 just isn't enough, kind of a compromise between 48 and 63s). If it sucks, I'll go to a 63, stage 5. Beauty of hybrid turbos.

 

[doug]

Originally posted by smokehouse_83
But anyway I dont think there is a difference in auto or manual cams.

What car do you have? There is no difference in 2G cams, but there is a difference in 1G manual vs. auto cams.

Also, I keep hearing that the 1G M/T cams are a little better than 2G cams, so I picked up a set ultra-cheap to try them out. Haven't put them in yet, though.

 

[rdrkt]

People that are so concerned with spool that they would choke off top end with a .48 housings don’t understand that they have a 122in motor 4 cylinder motor. If you want to have all sorts of low end buy a Mustang. They have TONS of torque. Or go 2.4L and choke that off with a tiny turbo. But I think you are really missing the point of a turbo 4 cylinder its all about helacious top end.

I’m sure I am making well over 400 wheel hp on pump gas with my current setup and I have a nice 4k power band about 4-8k. To me that’s more than acceptable. However when I drive my friend’s MUCH slower Mustang (110 traps) around the block and through the neighborhood it feels a lot faster at super low RPMs. His powerband is probably 2800-5300. A powerband like that isn’t going to happen in a DSM if you want to make serious power. You just have to accept that fact and move on.

 

[Mike 99GSX]

Originally posted by rdrkt
People that are so concerned with spool that they would choke off top end with a .48 housings don’t understand that they have a 122in motor 4 cylinder motor. If you want to have all sorts of low end buy a Mustang. They have TONS of torque. Or go 2.4L and choke that off with a tiny turbo. But I think you are really missing the point of a turbo 4 cylinder its all about helacious top end.

I’m sure I am making well over 400 wheel hp on pump gas with my current setup and I have a nice 4k power band about 4-8k. To me that’s more than acceptable. However when I drive my friend’s MUCH slower Mustang (110 traps) around the block and through the neighborhood it feels a lot faster at super low RPMs. His powerband is probably 2800-5300. A powerband like that isn’t going to happen in a DSM if you want to make serious power. You just have to accept that fact and move on.

I think this is good oversight advice. I just ordered a .63 housing for my 50 trim. I haven't even been able to make a pass with it yet because of the weather here but I can tell that it feels a little choked in the top end especially with my 264/272 cams. The spool up is so fast with the .48 that I know I can live with the .63. I was worried about lag when I bought it but I think I should have just got the .63 in the first place.

 

[DCJ98GST]

Has anybody done any tests on exhaust manifold pressure to compressor pressure ratio. I would not think it is that hard to do. You just need another boost gauge to monitor the exhaust pressure. I would be curious to see the ratio difference between the two housings.

 

[Mike 99GSX]

Originally posted by DCJ98GST
Has anybody done any tests on exhaust manifold pressure to compressor pressure ratio.

That's a good tongue twister. It took me about 4 tries to get that one out of my mouth!

 

[irn__man]

Originally posted by Mike 99GSX

The spool up is so fast with the .48 that I know I can live with the .63. I was worried about lag when I bought it but I think I should have just got the .63 in the first place.

Mike 99GSX,

What is your current setup with the .48 spooling up at?

iron