Stuck Throttle Body Shaft Seals

[DSMunknown]

So I have obviously read through the VFAQ, PlymouthLaser.com, and other how-to articles regarding this process. However, I have come across a problem that I don't hear much of. My seals are stuck in the TB.

I know that there are metal casings that hold the seals in place. The problem is when I use a small flathead the seals are not popping out, and the casings are beginning to become damaged. They're not that bad right now, but I don't want to make the situation any worse. In addition, there is no vendor that sells just these casings. (I believe the casings are too specific of a part to be sold as a pair.) When I use the flathead as a fulcrum, all that's happening is the old seals are becoming damaged (who cares) and slowly tearing apart, while there are already a couple spots on both casings where the metal has "ripped" or "torn" on the inside lip, due to the upward force of the flathead.

I have all the parts I need to do a full swap. I would hate for these POS seals and casings the reason I have to either send it out to be rebuilt or buy a rebuilt TB.

A light bulb has just gone off in my head. I could always take apart my old 2G TB and get the metal casings out of there if worse comes to worst. I will give that a shot. For hypothetical sake, let's say I also damage those casings as well. What are some other options to coax the remaining casings out?

 

[Avionixx]

It sounds like you're using the o-ring fix. My seals were stuck in the shaft bore as well and I got them out by just going to town with the screwdriver. Of course this split the casings in half and shot them across the garage. Didn't worry me too much because I used the Chicago Rawhide seals which were pretty much the seal and casing all in one piece.

What you can try to do is get a can of compressed air and turn in upside down, then shoot the casings with its "freezing breath" so to speak. Theoretically it should shrink the casings enough to pop them out without too much trouble (hopefully).

 

[DSMunknown]

So I solved my little dilemma. I just used a wider flathead. I was initially using one with a range of 3/16th of an inch. I decided to give a larger flathead a try. This one measures at about 1/4th of an inch wide. Did the trick without too much trouble. And for some extra insurance, I popped out my old 2G casings. Seems very odd the smaller/thinner flathead didn't do the job, even with the amount of force I was using.

When I was taking apart the TB, I forgot to label the plate. Does it really matter? I skimmed through Jim's (Auto RS T) article, as well as the other VFAQs. I don't really see the dier importance in labelling it. Besides, I took some fine steel wool and cleaned it up.

 

[AndrewD5418]

It sounds like you're using the o-ring fix. My seals were stuck in the shaft bore as well and I got them out by just going to town with the screwdriver. Of course this split the casings in half and shot them across the garage. Didn't worry me too much because I used the Chicago Rawhide seals which were pretty much the seal and casing all in one piece.

What you can try to do is get a can of compressed air and turn in upside down, then shoot the casings with its "freezing breath" so to speak. Theoretically it should shrink the casings enough to pop them out without too much trouble (hopefully).

What is the part number or where can I get those seals?

 

[DSMunknown]

What is the part number or where can I get those seals?

At the bottom ---> TB Shaft Seals VFAQ BTW, the 1990 seals are different compared to the 1991-1994 seals. For the later model seals, go and visit MachV.

For links to the Rawhide products, try some of the links below or any other vendor that deals with this specific manufacturer.


SKF Seals
Chicago Rawhide: Chicago Rawhide Seals,Speedy Sleeve, Wheel Seals for Trucks

 

[DSMunknown]

I have now come across another stumbling block. I can't get the seals into the metal casings. They're just too big (in regards to diameter/circumference) and too stiff to fit.

I purchased my seals from MachV, the direct link is in the above post. For those of us who have purchased these seals, we know that the seals have a slanted lip on the outside. I tried to push the smaller side into the open end of the casing first, but without any flexibility I am unable to get them in. I did use dieletric grease like crazy but I still had no success.

I just purchased some new seals from Kaman (part number 3930), so we'll see how that goes.

Anyone have some tips on these OEM seals?




And now for a tip on cleaning out the casings of that pesky old rubber.

When I was cleaning out the old seals from the metal casings, I experimented with fire. If anyone has looked through Dan's (project_tsi) article about replacing engine mounts, he mentions that burning the rubber is a good idea. So I decided to try it on the small casings. It turned out to be a success.

All I could find were some long matches. If I had a zippo or candle lighter (with the extended nozzle) I know it would have been even easier. I used some pliers (and then tweezers) as a pair of tongs to hold the casings steady. Again, if I had a constant flame it would have been better. I highly doubt a little heat did any damage to the casings (aka weaken the structure of the casing). However, I'm not sure I would recommend using a blow torch here. Unless you set it on a low level, you may want to steer away from that option. Not much heat is needed here.

After I was done cooking, the rubber was nice and brittle. Broke up and came apart like a charm.

 

[DSMunknown]

Just to update this thread, I contacted Jim (Auto RS T) for some help.

When you burned the seal out did you clean the bore in that area? I would use something like 800-1000 grit on a pencil or something of the like just to give it a nice polish, don't over work it too much.

I've been having good luck even pressing these seals in by using my thumb, I've also used 10mm sockets and the bottoms of screwdrivers that fit the outer lip of the seal well.

Sometimes having the seal lubed creates a problem also making it want to slide around to much.

My best tips would be:

Make sure the seal is completely centered and flush before you try and press it in.

Be firm with the seal, as long as your on the outer lip you shouldn't damage it badly.

If it starts to go in a little crooked just apply some more pressure to the opposite side of the seal, just use your head knowing when to stop if it doesn't look good.

I told him I scraped out basically all of the leftover seals. I did notice that the seal seems to be actually wider in terms of circumference by about .5mm or so, even at the widest point on the casing. I just didn't see the seals squeezing into the smaller casings. Additionally, these seals are very very stiff. There is virtually no give in the seals to coax them in.

I also reminded him that the bottom of the casing also has a slight lip, somewhat similar to the top but not as drastic.

The seal being a little larger than the casing is normal. That way it slightly compacts the seal and when installed.

I used the Mach V seals in my write up. When I put them in my throttle body I lubed them everywhere, which I think may have actually made it harder to put in. Since then I have done a few more including Paul's (99gst racer) and Dan's (Project TSI) and I do not lube the outer part of the seal anymore.

Besides what I've said allready I don't know what else to say to help. Besides maybe putting and extension on a 10mm socket and tapping the seal in with a hammer. Anything else please let me know.

So I told him I would try and see if I can't wipe out the grease or use one of my other casings instead.

I also asked about about the slight lip on the bottom of the metal casing. I was afraid if I put enough pressure on it to get the seal in, it will collapse and fold in on me, resulting in the casing becoming worthless.

I reminded him about the possible issue with the plate. I didn't think it mattered what way it faces, unless he said otherwise.

Could you show me a picture of this lip? I think I know which one you are talking about but am unsure. If it is the one inside the shaft hole where the seal sets against, don't worry just get the seal to sit flush with the end of the casing. I believe that lip is machined in from what I could tell.

If you are talking about the very end where the shaft goes in crushing while you try and press the other seal in I don't think it will be a problem. I haven't experienced one yet. You could set it on a piece of wood and then it would just form an impression in the wood and not damage the aluminum.

The plate can go in anyway, as a matter of fact a 90 plate will work in the later throttle bodies! I only mark it becuase I like to assemble everything exactly the way it comes apart. Just seems to make everything go together more smoothly.

Hopefully I can get this done today as well as the RM sway bar. Stupid rust.

 

[DSMunknown]

So when I installed my Kaman seals, I (kind of) forgot to add the dialectic grease before installation. And when I tried installing the MachV OEM seals into the old metal casings, they were being a bi*** and I warped one of them when using a rubber mallet and a 10mm socket.

Anyways, I cut both of the seals to have a peak inside. Did you know that not only does the Kaman have a metal ring on the inside of the seal, but so does the OEM seal? I haven't heard of that before. This is why the OEM seals are so damned stiff. Anyways, I tried to compare the metal rings side by side. It seems that the rings are roughly the same. The Kaman seals might have slightly more mass. And I said "might". It's a little hard to tell.

As far as the rubber seals are concerned, all that I can see is on the OEM seals there are "ribs" or "threads" on the outside of the seals, while the Kaman seals are completely flat on the outside, just like the OEM metal casings. Taking a closer look at them together, it seems that the Kaman seals have a tad more rubber on the outside, which makes them a direct "bolt-on" seal. I had thought about testing the OEM seals without the metal casings, but I think the boost leaks would come a-knockin' sooner than expected.

 

[Auto RS T]

Anthony, I feel bad you are having such a hard time with the seals. Did you end up getting it all done? If so which seals did you end up using? The offer still stands if you want to send it over.

 

[DSMunknown]

Just waiting for the Kaman company to send over the new seals. I should be set.

 

[Polyol]

You don't use the bronze looking casting you pryed out with your new seals. Like you said the new seals have a metel center, and the factory seals have the bronze outer casting. So you just throw those old bronze castings away, and install your new seals.

 

[92awddsm]

You don't use the bronze looking casting you pryed out with your new seals. Like you said the new seals have a metel center, and the factory seals have the bronze outer casting. So you just throw those old bronze castings away, and install your new seals.

Agreed. The only time you use the stock metal casing is if you are replacing the stock seal with an o-ring. If you are installing new complete seals, the old casing is not used and will not work. Trash them, buy a new set of seals, and forget about the old parts. The old metal casing was actually made into and part of the seal. The new seals have the metal casing enclosed in rubber to create a better, more airtight seal.

 

[DSMunknown]

Huh, no wonder why I had trouble getting those effing seals in the casings.

 

[DSMunknown]

So Jim sent me a PM...

Anthony,

I believe I was misreading what you were trying to tell me. Now that I see what others have to say I realize you were talking about the old o-ring part of the SEAL CASING. I thought you were referring to the TB casing itself.... I'm sorry.

There are two ways to da a shaft seal. The Karman seal/MachV seal way, and the o-ring method.

You take the MachV seal and press that directly into the TB bore. No old casing whatsoever.

For the o-ring method (which I don't prefer) you clean the SEAL CASING again..sorry and install an o-ring inside of that, then replace that assembly.

I bet those seals slide right in now.

Just one big brain fart, huh Jim? They should be here in a little bit.

 

[92awddsm]

So Jim sent me a PM...








Just one big brain fart, huh Jim? They should be here in a little bit.

Im sure it was just a misunderstanding because Jim is a very knowledgeable guy. Dont give him too much crap.

Off topic, Jim, do you ever hear from Andy anymore? If so, tell him to call me. My # is the same.

 

[DSMunknown]

I've now got the effing thing all together... except the springs aren't lining up with the white out line I drew before I took it apart. Looking through the Plymouth Laser guide, the line is definitely supposed to line up. Yet I've taken this thing apart three times now, and can't figure out why they aren't. Should I give it another try? Could it just be an issue with the outer spring, or both? Everything else is together and is doing great, including the plate.

Only other things I have yet to put back on is the TPS and the TB plate screws.

As far as the seals go, I got them yesterday and pounded them in today. Wasn't about to take any more for their bullshit.

 

[romeen]

Make sure that you are winding it back up the correct number of turns (I actually counted mine when undoing it). You may need to go another turn. Just be careful as it gets very tight and if it slips it can do some damage to you.

Also make sure that the throttle lever (that cable connects to) is "clocked" in the correct orientation as it's easy to start winding it with the lever 180* off.

I know this seems really simple but make sure that both springs are oriented properly. The curved/rounded hooked end catching on the projection on the TB itself and the squared hooked end hooking onto the throttle lever.

 

[DSMunknown]

Best I can do is get the mark on the lever 90* away from the spring marks. And that's with the lever in the WOT position, while the TB plate shaft is in the closed position. This is getting frustrating.

When I try another turn, the marks (white out line) become miss-aligned again, just in the opposite direction. I've tried positioning the lever differently, but to no avail.

I got the spring hooks in the correct position.

Why am I having such a hard time with this damned thing?!

 

[romeen]

Are you absolutely sure that the lever is clocked correctly? Also, on the TB side of the lever there are two clocking/dowel protrusions that fit into two holes in that white plastic cylinder thing (the thing that the green spring goes into). Are those aligned properly?

 

[DSMunknown]

Explain to me again about the lever, just to clear things up.

 

[romeen]

As I'm sure you've noticed the hole in the middle of the lever (that the shaft slides through) is not round. It has two flat sides that match up with the flat sides of the shaft. So there are two possible ways that the lever can slide onto the shaft (by rotating the lever 180* before putting it on). You may have to take it back off, rotate 180* and reinstall. When the throttle plate is closed does the throttle stop touch the adjustment screw like it should?

And again, make sure the two dowel pins on the lever are in the holes in the white plastic piece otherwise the lever can spin independently of the plastic piece and may cause misalignment.

 

[romeen]

Here is a pic showing the two dowel pins on the TB side of the lever and the corresponding holes in the plastic piece (circled). Also the shape of the shaft so you see how the lever can be put on correctly or clocked 180* the other way.

 

[Black_Bullet]

This reminds me to do mines soon, sounds like a pita.

 

[gsxtasy]

This reminds me to do mines soon, sounds like a pita.

I thought so too at first, it's really not as bad as you'd think. I think the hardest part was getting the throttle plate screws out without stripping them. Make sure to get the right size screw driver.

 

[DSMunknown]

IDK. Ya know what - f*** it. The tension feels fine. I don't see anything wrong with leaving the spring the way it is. Other than this stupid spring, the TB is nearly perfect. Yeah, my TB shaft is backwards, the FIAV still needs to be put on, and the TPS needs to be attached & adjusted, but other than the shaft screws that scare me I should be good.