Hahn super 20g turbo

[Spike3099]

Hey what do you guys think abotu the super 20g turbo by hanns racing? I was thinking off buying it, 10cm housing internal waste gate and it can hold up to 30 pounds of boost.

 

[candela]

 

[asian312]

If u are looking for 20g qualities but want a more direct fit for the 2g's, might I suggest Turbochargers. com. I've was in the same situation about a week ago when Wade dropped me a line on their new projects. Needless to say I'll be a geuine pig in two or three days Not sure if I can leak the word out yet, but call them and ask for Wade. Tell them Kevin sent ya!

 

[Phoenix_RsX]

I like it myself, but it's a little too laggy for my tastes..I'm going with the L2R for m agp. alot of ppl don't like them either, but it seems to best fit what I want, and that what it all boils down to, getting what you think is the best for you. good luck.

 

[Unreal]

I don't know why, but AGP has only sold a few l3rs. More people think they are too big or something. The l3rs are getting full boost around 4100. They make crazy power on pumpgas. I've had an l2r and l3r, and the l3r owns the l2r. Makes way more power, for only alittle bit more lag. People should seriously look into getting an l3r.

 

[sophat34]

I have one, there not to bad, I am upgrading to something a little bigger. no power till 3400rpms, I put a avc-r on and it felt like it was was comming on a little sooner but I have nothing to back that up. the power doesnt come on very smoothly its kinda like no power then spining tires. I also have the h igh flow manifold that they sell, they told me it would make a diff. not sure but I didnt have to use the spacer plate. mabey some one can help me out what flange does the super 20g have? I thought it had a t3 I am wondering becasue I think I have to get a new manifold.

 

[Phoenix_RsX]

Originally posted by Unreal
I don't know why, but AGP has only sold a few l3rs. More people think they are too big or something. The l3rs are getting full boost around 4100. They make crazy power on pumpgas. I've had an l2r and l3r, and the l3r owns the l2r. Makes way more power, for only alittle bit more lag. People should seriously look into getting an l3r.

Yeah, I've been looking at the L3R myself. that is a huge turbo for dsms, but it just seems like the L2R would seem to be the most beneficial for my proposed track times by next summer. but Unreal, is the L3R actually better? perhaps you can provide some insight for me.

But getting to the point. I hear good and bad things about the 20G max hp with supporting mods...... super lag......

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by Phoenix_RsX
super lag......

Lag is way over rated. But in your case its a blessing Mr 2wd.

 

[Phoenix_RsX]

Originally posted by rdrkt

Lag is way over rated. But in your case its a blessing Mr 2wd.

Good point.

 

[dukmahsik]

hrc turbos suck

 

[Phoenix_RsX]

wow, that's talented. do you at least have a reason behind that highly intelligent comment?

 

[dukmahsik]

looking at the dsm times list is reason enough to know that there are better choices out there than the "super" turbos at same price

go with what is proven big 16g, br20g, frank 2, etc

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

I think Hahn turbo's are horribly engineered POS's. Why you ask? OK: They have a 10 cm housing, sounds like a good idea, but what makes you think it's nesecary? I have seen people put down FIVE HUNDRED WHP on SEVEN cm REDS. And the standard Red is 8cm. And people have run 9's on it. Remember this is with a huge compressor wheel, a 62-1 or 68-1 maybe? And it dosen't even need a 10 cm housing to perform amazing. This just shows some of the poor turbo engineering. The 7cm red probably spools like a Hahn turbo, and it’s a bolt on!

The turbine wheel. So what is the optimal way to increase turbine flow? The turbine wheel! The air in the turbine housing can only escape as fast as the turbine wheel will let it, so putting a 10 cm housing on a small turbine wheel is stupid. So what turbine wheel does Hahn use? A TDO5H! The exact same wheel that’s in the 14b! And yet even big16g's benefit from clipping it, so of course Hahn clips it right? Wrong. They decide to use a straight, as it sits in the 14b, turbine wheel. If that’s not sweet, what is? Remember the Buschur 20g has a clipped turbine wheel. How clipped? 23-25 degrees, and yes, it does whoop HRC's ass. Don’t bother even arguing the point. They consistently make better times and they are so much more responsive its not even funny, full boost under 3500 every time. For every fast Hahn car there are 30 fast BR20G cars. I saw one pull in off the street, never been dyno’d or tuned by any professional, just the owner with an safc and vpc, put down 413 whp on 110 octane, then some tuning got it to 439. The things boogie. I still don't think it’s the best though.

I have a TDO6 20G/7CM/15Clip. I trap 119 with just an safc for tuning, on a 2g MAS and 550's, street core and HK$ cams. I have only had my SAFC for 3 weeks before I made that pass(about a month ago). First personal tuning experiance ever. It was NOT hard. 119 mph traps from an unskilled tuner with a VERY basic setup. Roy Naverez I believe went from 116 mph traps to 121 when RRE clipped his TDO6 15 degrees(yes, they did it to a used turbo.)

I get full boost at 3600 RPM...on stock cams', it was 3400.

So I make more power, I do it easily, with 10 minutes of tunning. I get boost extremely responsively, much faster then a HRC unit. I can STILL put on a 10CM housing if I want, and completely destroy a HRC's turbos hope of ever being able to remotley keep up in power potential. My turbo cost's about a thousand dollars, and minus IC piping is a straight bolt on. It only has one exhaust manifold gasket thank God!

In summary, the HRC unit is poorly designed, has a stupid choice of turbine housings and turbine wheels that AT BEST make it ALMOST as good as a decently designed turbo(although I still doubt its power potential is within 30 hp of mine! That tiny turbine wheel is going to ####ing kick your ass above 7000 rpm!), while making it a ####ing pain in the ass to install and expensive.

Sean
11.9@119, not even trying, with a ton of mods left.

 

[dukmahsik]

i noticed how east coast dsmers and west coast dsmers like to use different turbos than each other. west coast for the most part tends to stick to tried and true methods and east coasters seem to try new ideas. im not saying one is better than another just saying what i see.

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Its actually quite the opposite.

West coast is now going with the newer TDO6 20g's, I only know one BR turbo out here, I know alot of greens, agp turbos, alot of full garret cars etc etc. Everyone trys something different

ALOT of east coast guys have br20g's and similair old school turbos. Just like alot of them have 550's and high fuel pressure, while every west coast guy hass 660's or bigger and lower fuel pressure.

 

[asian312]

Might I redirect u to the following post in regards to 20Gs for 2G cars:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26043

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Um, ok, why did you want to redirect them to that? so they can go from a shitty turbine side with a Hahn turbo to a shitty compressor side with that one?

46 = garbage, in a garbage compressor housing...shitty compressor housing, give me a TO4E! Thats probably about equivalent to a big 16 on the compressor side. And is a TDO6H turbine wheel nessecary for a 46 trim? I don't know. All in all that looks nice, I'd DEFINITLEY want a larger compressor wheel and a better compressor housing, and I hope is under 1300.

 

[Phoenix_RsX]

wow, that's talented. do you at least have a reason behind that highly intelligent comment? [/QUOTE]

Before I even continue on, let me say that the comment I previously made was not intended to start any kind of $hit......

Now, the reason why I made the comment is becasue there is a guy asking about a turbo in hoping someone could provide insight on the specific turbo he asked for. you guys know it like I know, that "it sucks ass" isn't explaining anything. "It's stock officer", I love the break down you made previously. I don't know what the east and west coast is doin tho . I guess you are right tho, cause I'm the only east coast dsmr around here that is, that's even heard of AGP. to the guy that said Hrc sucks ass. nothing personal, like i said previously, not trying to question what you may/may not know, but if you believe something sucks, at least tell the guy why.

I'm not trying to support HRC in any way. never had it, never will. in fact I'm going with the L2R from agp in less than two weeks. Well enough.....hope I didn't make any enemies from that comment.

 

[asian312]

ItsStockOfficer are u so sure about that? B4 u are quick to judge, let the turbo get some life into her. U're absolutly right in saying that it may be a piece of junk, but until it gets a chance to, I nor u can pass judgement.

Reason y I directed them towards that is b/c they were interested in a 20G for the 2g cars. I agree on your opinion about the Hahn set after doing the research, and with that same mind set, is y this turbo was created. 20g characteristics with 2g install.

So is that all it's compared to, a big16g?. The 46 trim is larger than the 20g wheel. I'm no guru on turbos, but I do understand the need to match parts correctly. Will this work, who knows? That's y I stepped forward to try it out. If infact the comp side needs a revamp, yes, the larger T4 comps can be used. As well as the wheels. Right now the name of the game is KISS (keep it stupid simple) and with the hot side all being Mitsu and the flow side being Garret, it does just that. The parts match correctly with out any detrimental tinkering.

I trust Turbochargers with this build and I believe this turbo will be every bit as effective as the 20Gs. Somethings u just can't say, but take a closer look at the BR20. Not trying to hate on anyone, just introducing something different and new.

 

[Phoenix_RsX]

Originally posted by asian312
Right now the name of the game is KISS (keep it stupid simple)
be

I thought it was keep it simple stupid.

 

[asian312]

Oops , sorry trying to fight off Def Com sinus attacks

 

[Phoenix_RsX]

!!!

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by asian312
ItsStockOfficer are u so sure about that? B4 u are quick to judge, let the turbo get some life into her. U're absolutly right in saying that it may be a piece of junk, but until it gets a chance to, I nor u can pass judgement.

Reason y I directed them towards that is b/c they were interested in a 20G for the 2g cars. I agree on your opinion about the Hahn set after doing the research, and with that same mind set, is y this turbo was created. 20g characteristics with 2g install.

So is that all it's compared to, a big16g?. The 46 trim is larger than the 20g wheel. I'm no guru on turbos, but I do understand the need to match parts correctly. Will this work, who knows? That's y I stepped forward to try it out. If infact the comp side needs a revamp, yes, the larger T4 comps can be used. As well as the wheels. Right now the name of the game is KISS (keep it stupid simple) and with the hot side all being Mitsu and the flow side being Garret, it does just that. The parts match correctly with out any detrimental tinkering.

I trust Turbochargers with this build and I believe this turbo will be every bit as effective as the 20Gs. Somethings u just can't say, but take a closer look at the BR20. Not trying to hate on anyone, just introducing something different and new.

Go to www,vfaq.com and look at the compressor map yourself, in the turbo comparisons vfaq, the tdo6 20g flows ~51 lb/min at 20 psi, the 46 trim maxes out around 45 lns/min. My buddy had one, we drove his car alot, felt like a 16g, it was a true garret with a stage 3 wheel and a .63 a/r. That turbo is a 16g, or a little worse as it was on his 2g, maybe good for mid 12's, I highly doubt 11's and 10's? NEVER. The 46 trim is phsyically larger then a 20g wheel, at 2.9 to 2.7 inches, but what does that mean in the world of turbo trims and aerodynamics? Id want a 50 trim or 60 trim. My friend later got a 60 trim, thats a turbo to be happpy with.

why is that better then just welding a elbow on a 20g and using an install kit? Like I said it had better be damn cheap to justify putting that thing (WHICH IS NOT SIMPLE, far more likely to break) on your car instead of a proven 10 second turbo over and over like the 20G.

 

[asian312]

Your statements are valid, but I believe certain things are not being taken into consideration. It's something I've had to ponder about for quite sometime b4 posting this responce as to insure accuracy. Not to mention when I had to recall this discussion with some friends and developed a major headache when having to mix engine dynamics w/ physics.

The majority of this info can be further drawn from:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22470
It's a very informative thread about what really counts.

Basically this is my approach, and I could very well be off on a tangent or cloud 9, but here goes. Summing from various sources, the approach to turbos using PSI and CFM's is only one half the equation. From what I've been able to draw, it's the ability of the turbo to feed the demand of the engine and the ability for the engine to exit that flow. True that one turbo may have the ability to make more HP or PSI than another, but it's more along the lines of how efficient it is at doing it over various RPM ranges. 15 psi form a T-25 is the same as 15 psi from GT-30. What's different is the amount of CFMs being delivered and its effiency. As RPMs rise, so does the flow of the engine. More revolutions = more complete strokes = higher flow out of the engine. It was explained to me that an engine is a closed system, and with that in mind, u can only flow in what u can flow out (this is 0 boost). When your turbo supplys more than the demand u create boost which in turn creates a more dense air which = more power. Now the differences in turbos come into play at how efficient they are at supplying that required CFM. The more efficient the less energy is lost in the creation of heat. Y the TDO6H wheel, less restriction

So more importantly it's about where the bottleneck in your system is (IC, exhaust, head, etc.) and what Pressure Ratio u are demanding from the turbo at various RPM ranges. This inturn draws more upon the effiency than PSI and CFMs. Now I realieze the approach u are coming from, in saying that the tdo6 20g flows ~51 lb/min at 20 psi, the 46 trim maxes out around 45 lns/min. But how efficient is that? According to some simple calculations, 51 lb/min = ~.33 m^3/sec. Follow that on the comp map and u'll see that it's way off the effiency islands (below 65%).

Keep in mind, generally these numbers are generated from a flow bench which does not impose the same restrictions as our engine does (maybe wrong on this one, I'll have to check in the morning). As so, the 20g is capable of higher top end, but the comp maps are very similar in nature in comparing the effiency islands.

The fact that it is a hybrid does not mark it as a doomed for failure. Alot plays in the design and how parts are matched and pieced together. Due to professionalism and courtesy to all Turbo shops, all I will say is that some hybrids are created right and some cut a few corners. True the design of the 20G has withstood the sands of time, but once again this is still new. But the internals of this turbo has been carefully chosen to meet it's requirments.

More top end HP does not always nessessarily mean more applicable power. There's many "outside" variants that will also play into effect such as what supporting mods. Is it worth the money? Although I can't disclose my personal situation, I was told it would be in the ball park of ~$1200. Compare that to a "NEW" 20G TDO6 at ~$1000 plus the 2G install kit, they come out about even. Where this may draw attention is that it is a bolt on and that it is still just a variant (1st of this type). I've been told that different comp housings and wheel combo can be applied. This is just a starting point. We'll have to see after I get it on a dyno. The 20G is an awesome turbo. Proven time and time again. But as in all things, majority of the time it's about the driver/tuner and not the equipment. For now, I'm out!

Merry X-mas!

 

[ItsStockOfficer]

Originally posted by asian312
Your statements are valid, but I believe certain things are not being taken into consideration. It's something I've had to ponder about for quite sometime b4 posting this responce as to insure accuracy. Not to mention when I had to recall this discussion with some friends and developed a major headache when having to mix engine dynamics w/ physics.

Thats awesome, its great to see someone who actually does research!

The majority of this info can be further drawn from:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22470
It's a very informative thread about what really counts.

Basically this is my approach, and I could very well be off on a tangent or cloud 9, but here goes. Summing from various sources, the approach to turbos using PSI and CFM's is only one half the equation. From what I've been able to draw, it's the ability of the turbo to feed the demand of the engine and the ability for the engine to exit that flow. True that one turbo may have the ability to make more HP or PSI than another, but it's more along the lines of how efficient it is at doing it over various RPM ranges. 15 psi form a T-25 is the same as 15 psi from GT-30. What's different is the amount of CFMs being delivered and its effiency. As RPMs rise, so does the flow of the engine. More revolutions = more complete strokes = higher flow out of the engine. It was explained to me that an engine is a closed system, and with that in mind, u can only flow in what u can flow out (this is 0 boost). When your turbo supplys more than the demand u create boost which in turn creates a more dense air which = more power. Now the differences in turbos come into play at how efficient they are at supplying that required CFM. The more efficient the less energy is lost in the creation of heat. Y the TDO6H wheel, less restriction

This is all true. Of course you don't want to have a 300 hp compressor wheel and a 500+ hp exhaust wheel. Then again, its experimentation with a new system and Im anxious to see what it will do, this may be a good way of doing things.


So more importantly it's about where the bottleneck in your system is (IC, exhaust, head, etc.) and what Pressure Ratio u are demanding from the turbo at various RPM ranges. This inturn draws more upon the effiency than PSI and CFMs. Now I realieze the approach u are coming from, in saying that the tdo6 20g flows ~51 lb/min at 20 psi, the 46 trim maxes out around 45 lns/min. But how efficient is that? According to some simple calculations, 51 lb/min = ~.33 m^3/sec. Follow that on the comp map and u'll see that it's way off the effiency islands (below 65%).


I don't see that, I see .33-.34 on the 68% eeffciency line@ a P/R of 2.25. The 46 trim hits max mapped airflow at the same around the same PR....but its ~44 lb/min AND ITS MAPPED TO 60%....not 68. Tell me this isn't an extremely large difference? And remember, the 46 trim is mapped in a TO4E housing, in a T3 housing its going to be considerably less effcient, on the order of maybe 4-10%, with the larger losses being at high boost(and DSM's boost HIGH, near the top of maps).

Keep in mind, generally these numbers are generated from a flow bench which does not impose the same restrictions as our engine does (maybe wrong on this one, I'll have to check in the morning). As so, the 20g is capable of higher top end, but the comp maps are very similar in nature in comparing the effiency islands.

A flow bench covers every load, then you map an engine accross it. You take your pressure ratio. I run 19-20 psi so mines about 2.8. then you draw a flat horizontal line accross. The left side of the line will be low airflow(low rpms) The right side will be high airflow and RPM's. Anything that cause boost to change, (creeo, crazy boost controller's, small turbos) will cause the line to not be flat horizontally but move up and down as it continues right.

The fact that it is a hybrid does not mark it as a doomed for failure. Alot plays in the design and how parts are matched and pieced together. Due to professionalism and courtesy to all Turbo shops, all I will say is that some hybrids are created right and some cut a few corners. True the design of the 20G has withstood the sands of time, but once again this is still new. But the internals of this turbo has been carefully chosen to meet it's requirments.

I dissagree with them being carefully chosen. Why a T3 comp Housing? A to4e housing fits fine and greatly increase's effciency. FP makes a sleeper 16g, its a 20g in a 16 compressor housing. It makes 30-50 less max whp. A comp wheel should be in what it was designed for, ro something close(TO4E/TDO6-T3/TDO5H). the 46 trim is not matched to the turbine wheel well. Its the same turbine wheel as 500+ hp RED which uses a mystery compressor wheel, but something like a 62-1. Its the same compressor wheel as a Frank 1. So its either a DISGUSTINGLY underpowered Red or a Hugely exhaust upgraded frank 1. Either way the compressor wheel is a significant limiting factor. I assume the T3 compressor housing is chosen MERELY because it mates with the t3 center section which is chosen MERELY because is has the same bolt holes as a stock 2g? Id rather tweak my lines and get a significantly better turbo.

More top end HP does not always nessessarily mean more applicable power. There's many "outside" variants that will also play into effect such as what supporting mods. Is it worth the money? Although I can't disclose my personal situation, I was told it would be in the ball park of ~$1200. Compare that to a "NEW" 20G TDO6 at ~$1000 plus the 2G install kit, they come out about even. Where this may draw attention is that it is a bolt on and that it is still just a variant (1st of this type). I've been told that different comp housings and wheel combo can be applied. This is just a starting point. We'll have to see after I get it on a dyno. The 20G is an awesome turbo. Proven time and time again. But as in all things, majority of the time it's about the driver/tuner and not the equipment. For now, I'm out!

A better turbo will generally make more power and at rpm it has boost. Even a 60 trim will have all the power band it needs for drag. your compressor wheel might be good for road racing, but the turbine side makes that impossible neways, TDO6H is HUGE. The GOD of 46 trims as far as im concerned is Scot Grey(www.dsmporn.com) at 11.91@117 on C16(VERY high octane)....My 20g did that on 110 so easily its not funny


Merry X-mas!
Merry Christmas!