Which block should I start with?

[Grimis]

Ok, I got lost

I've searched and havent come up with any hard answers, And I hope I'm in the right place.

Ok I'll start from the begining, and some background on my car.

My current motor is junk, been sitting with out any fluids at all and has been out side in the elements. The oil pump gears blew threw the bottom end, i found chunks in the pan in april. Things happend and i havent had access to my car. Justice was finaly put into place now im waiting on funds.

Ok, now to get to my question.

The mods i want to do on the new motor is:
ether the PTE SCM 5031E or the 6031E havent desided yet
with an FPR,255hlph pump, 880cc injectors, SS feed line upgrade
and return line (maybe) Dejon intake kit, and there FMIC kit along with the rad fan for the ac do to piping, and most inportint thing Dsmlink. and a few gauges (AEM WB, Trans temp, EGT and maybe Oil press)

Ok, thats the easy part, it think that is a good setup, I hope. Problem is what i want to do with the engine

Ive called a few places and here is what ive come up with but unsure what to do:
My head is fine so most will be a shortblock build. But what route is best, should i do a beefed up standard 2.0shortblock and get cams for the head, or go 2.3 and get cams for the head or just say heck with it and just get a build 2.0 longblock

Built up shortblock ie (eagle/ross combo) balanced and BS removed: use my head
Built up 2.3l shortblock , stroker shortblock : use my head and get cams
Built 2.0 Longblock
Built 2.3 longblock (unsure of the cost)

just need advice from people that have been down this road and what works best. I plan on taking it somewhere to get it tuned after it is built up. but need to get the details on paper so when the funds hit the bank, there out as fast as they come in, do to the weather so far being nice...

Thanks, and if i have confused any one, I'm sorry, i think i confuse my self sometimes, but hay, its a DSM

 

[Injected]

What is the purpose of the car? Be very detailed about what you want out of the final product and how important each attribute is to you. I'll try and make this a little more clear. What is the primary purpose of the car? Is there some magical number you are trying to chase on the dyno or at the track, or are you satisfied with simply making it fast and will be satisfied with however it performs due to modifications? How important is low end? How comfortable are you with high rpms? Do you plan to upgrade the transmission? What about longevity of the various components? How do you typically drive? Blah, blah, blah, etc. etc. etc...

Have you decided on going with a 6 or 7 bolt engine. Some people don't like the 7's, but some think that if you replace the thrust bearing and all of the clearances are good, then you'll be fine. Some will even say that if you go with a 98 or later 7 bolt (including one from a 3G GS), you will be fine because of the different bearing design (I'm in this camp).

Hope this gets you started. I'll post more when you give a little more info.

 

[Grimis]

Hmmm i guess i should of been more detailed, my bad.

Im looking to get 425/490 or more if i can, something that is street-able and I'll be taking to the track once in awile, and a daily sleeper i guess you can call it.

It is an auto awd, and the trans has the new valve body/shift kit from IPT, Im looking into a high stall/locking TQ but need to figure out what way im going to get the right one of thouse.

It just had new front axles put in, new tcase and ujoints in the drive shaft.

I'm a normal drive i think I dont know how to discribe how i drive...

As for a 6bolt, yeah I've looked into it, but for an auto, just is't worth the hassle, now unless someone drops a Awd Mt drive line on my door step(Trans/tcase/axles/rear diff etc) I'll be glad to do the swap but thats about the only way I'll do a 6bolt swap.

Overbores 7bolts with the new bearing mod that they do, its why im looking at his engines, no one in this area is "Mitsubishi/4g63" friendly, you say ether word and they say junk it, because what i feel , they dont know the motor and there scared of what it can do

Other then that Im hoping this is a good setup, just totaly lost on what to do with the engine , because i dont want to be doing it again any time in the near future.

Thanks for the info, i hope this helps you helping me.

 

[larsrya8]

As for a 6bolt, yeah I've looked into it, but for an auto, just is't worth the hassle, now unless someone drops a Awd Mt drive line on my door step(Trans/tcase/axles/rear diff etc) I'll be glad to do the swap but thats about the only way I'll do a 6bolt swap.

Or you could just buy Kiggly's adapter kit from IPT for $300. I would definitely put in a 6-bolt if you're going to go through all the engine removal anyway (and spend all the money).

 

[Grimis]

Yeah i know about the kiggy kit, its just the other pain in the arse parts. I would want to use my 2g inatke manifold/tb and such, to keep the 2g sensors and such. Not to much info running around on that, every one just swaps to 1g setup, I know its been done, just not sure.

 

[larsrya8]

Yeah i know about the kiggy kit, its just the other pain in the arse parts. I would want to use my 2g inatke manifold/tb and such, to keep the 2g sensors and such. Not to much info running around on that, every one just swaps to 1g setup, I know its been done, just not sure.

You can keep the 2G head. That's my plan when I do the 6-bolt swap.

 

[Grimis]

hmmm, ill have too look into that, like the above post, adding $485 to the build that i dont need (kiggy kit 300 harness from rre 85)

 

[larsrya8]

hmmm, ill have too look into that, like the above post, adding $485 to the build that i dont need (kiggy kit 300 harness from rre 85)

I'm sure you mean $385... that's like saying that you don't want to get a 6-bolt because then you'd have to buy a new 6-bolt flywheel.

Either way, it's up to you. The best advice I can give you is to ditch the 7-bolt platform as soon as you can and get a 6-bolt. You have that opportunity right now. Anyone who says that they've "solved crankwalk" is lying to themselves and to you.

 

[Grimis]

sorry my bad on the math, was thinking something else when i typed

on the engine guy:
well considering he's built countless engines with that mod, I'd trust him on that respects plus i know 2 7bolts that are running that are his.

On the 6bolt note, use my 2g head with all the 2g trimings is what your saying.
what about the oil filter housing? id like to keep the 2g setup, water cooled rather i guess.
I'm not sure what is needed and such, but a 6bolt built block is cheaper then a 7bolt, just the other info on the build is blank to me, i know the magnusmotorsports has a nice guide, they just say swap the plugs with the 6bolt bottom/2g head, would i need to do the ecu pins and get the rre harness? I know for a fact there is't away around the kiggy kit .. I just dont want any other issues.

But thanks for your input tho.

 

[Injected]

Hmmm i guess i should of been more detailed, my bad.

Im looking to get 425/490 or more if i can, something that is street-able and I'll be taking to the track once in awile, and a daily sleeper i guess you can call it.

It is an auto awd, and the trans has the new valve body/shift kit from IPT, Im looking into a high stall/locking TQ but need to figure out what way im going to get the right one of thouse.

It just had new front axles put in, new tcase and ujoints in the drive shaft.

I'm a normal drive i think I dont know how to discribe how i drive...

As for a 6bolt, yeah I've looked into it, but for an auto, just is't worth the hassle, now unless someone drops a Awd Mt drive line on my door step(Trans/tcase/axles/rear diff etc) I'll be glad to do the swap but thats about the only way I'll do a 6bolt swap.

Overbores 7bolts with the new bearing mod that they do, its why im looking at his engines, no one in this area is "Mitsubishi/4g63" friendly, you say ether word and they say junk it, because what i feel , they dont know the motor and there scared of what it can do

Other then that Im hoping this is a good setup, just totaly lost on what to do with the engine , because i dont want to be doing it again any time in the near future.

Thanks for the info, i hope this helps you helping me.

You didn't really describe the power characteristics, but from the part about chasing a magic number (400+ hp) and remaining streetable (which I assume means accessible power and some level of reliability, which implies not revving sky high), I would say that you are going to need to go for displacement. I would suggest starting with a 4G64/G4CS block. 6 or 7 bolt us up to you. 7 bolts are far more abundant, but you'll have to fight the prejudices against them (possibly your own). You don't have to build a monster setup to support that kind of power. An Eagle/Wiseco combination will to the trick. Run a decent compression ratio for off boost driving (which you will do a bit of with a large turbo). You've got a lot of research ahead of you. I hope you know a great shop that is willing to work with you.

 

[Grimis]

maybe i should just go with an evo3 and be happy, Sounds to me i'm shooting for a high goal and is't reachable.

so what i think is going to happen, depending on if i find more info(more people) with the setup like im going to run,

ether 7bolt built long block or the 6bolt long block with eagle rods / ross pistions ratio 8.5:1
balance shafts removed, balanced/blueprinted .20 over
HKS or compairable cams for 274exhaust/264 intake (head checked, new seals and what ever it needs)
PTE 5031E or the 6031E (havent desided yet)
880cc PTE or FIC injectors
255HLPH fuel pump kit
SS feed line upgrade
SS return line upgrade
Aeromotive FPR w/gauge
Dejontool Advance Intake kit
DejonTool FMIC kit
Autometer Oil/EGT gauges
AEM WideBand A/F gauge
Dsm Link
Finish up my exhaust with the apexi n1 downpipe
throw some Tokico illumins suspention kit

And about aweekend down at my friends house at a local shop getting it fine tuned.

or i just might send the awd to the grave yard pick up a nice Fwd and start from scratch. Who knows...

 

[Injected]

Post a compressor map of those turbos. They may be a bit big for the application.

 

[Grimis]

post a what??? I see guys running these on stock blocks.. Maybe ill just go with my orignal plan, and then get it tuned and dynoed and see what the end resault is, instead of nick picking what with what.

 

[Injected]

post a what??? I see guys running these on stock blocks.. Maybe ill just go with my orignal plan, and then get it tuned and dynoed and see what the end resault is, instead of nick picking what with what.

A compressor map is a map that shows the relation to Pressure Ratio (on the Y axis) vs. Corrected Mass Flow (X axis; this is how much air the system is flowing) and shows the efficiency of the compressor for a given set of these two variables. If you don't know what a compressor map is and are just going off of what other people do, you have a ton of research to do.

 

[Grimis]

considering your the first person to ask about compresser map for a PTE 50trim out of the searchs ive done on these turbos and to see what other people are running to get my list of mods to support them, I have read a few of theses "MAPS" and kinda understand what they do and such. If every build had to be based of these maps i think alot would't be running.

I do thank you for your input, I have asked and only a 2 of you have posted on what i should go with about the block setup, hince im getting the run around about a map for a turbo thats been proven time and time agian what it can and cant do, so i leave this post to do what ever, i thought i would ask here but yet again, maybe i should of asked elsewere.

 

[hopeformylife]

What everyone is trying to tell you is that there is NO MAGIC ANSWER. No one on this board or any other board, or any mechanic or anyone at all, can tell you what you should do without You telling us what you want to do. With that being said, if order for You to know what You want to do, you need to research and learn something.

If you want to copy someone, look at the Braggin' Rights section - find a user you like - or with the same goals as You and buy everything that they did. Most home mechanics do not like that approach, they like to figure things out themselves and buy the parts that they want.

If You don't learn anything, like how a compressor map works, then You may buy a turbo that is to big for your engine and your engine will not be able to make it work efficiently. What the guys are trying to tell you, is that if You put a huge turbo on an engine that is too small without the proper supporting mods, Your car will suck like crap. Putting a huge turbo on is not the answer to all Your problems.

What I'd do and what the other guys are trying to do, is encourage You to learn and research (and we will help you out along the way) So that You can make the proper choices with out us trying to give you some MAGIC ANSWER.

With that being said I'll give you my magic answer.

Buy a 6-Bolt, Rebuild it - Put in the 7-bolt pistons for a littler higher compression. Buy a little smaller turbo so you want have any problems running it. - That is my magics answer - but that's probably not the right answer. Go learn something so we don't have to all give our magic answers. The rest of us learned something and we are putting what we know to use in our own cars / projects....

I've gone on long enough......

*EDIT*: I've done your dirty work for you. Go look at the profile of gSx_r1der and just copy everything He did. GL

 

[Grimis]

oh ic, its MAGIC ic now.................

maybe i asked the wrong WAY, maybe it is't MAGIC afterall, WHAT my question SHOULD of been was "WOULD THIS BLOCK SETUP HANDLE THIS" instead of what block should i go with.

I have learned alot from this place but not by you guys thats for sure.

 

[dr1665]

oh ic, its MAGIC ic now.................

maybe i asked the wrong WAY, maybe it is't MAGIC afterall, WHAT my question SHOULD of been was "WOULD THIS BLOCK SETUP HANDLE THIS" instead of what block should i go with.

I have learned alot from this place but not by you guys thats for sure.

I just read this entire thread from top to bottom and you have not received any asshat replies. What people are trying to tell you is to start with the big picutre:

The big picture: How are you going to drive this car? How much street versus track versus autocross? Are you going to drive this to work/school most of the time or just take her out on the weekends to abuse her and make others cry?

Then you get into the details of the build. You are fortunate that you have a DSM, man. Look at your engine the right way and it will make power. If your current engine is scrapped out, no worries. You find another and build it up fresh. You can make 400hp on stock internals if you want. You can make 400hp on a forged, monster block if you want.

The point is, this is all like giving someone directions someplace. You've got somewhere you want to be. Right now, you're basically telling us, "I want to go to the beach," but there are thousands of beaches in North America, man. We need to know which one.

Forget all this madness about which turbo, 6- or 7-bolt, or displacement and just tell us when and how you want to drive this thing when it's running again. Trust me when I tell you there are a hundred ways to get to any goal with these cars... you just need to tell us where that goal is first!

Chillax.

 

[Grimis]

Im a normal driver, i go from here to there in the car, and maybe twice, 3 times a month to the track, To be up front, It hasnt been running that long for me to get into a driving habbit.

when i got the car in 2003, the tcase locked up on me, took the dealer 3 months to fix it, (thank god for chrysler ahha not) i get it back then winter hits, it sits. 2004 i do get it to a track and run ok numbers for a nooblet, then i find out i have a hole about the size of softball in my downpipe, 2 faulty injectors, and 2 dead o2 sensors, that could of helped in my track time.
winter comes and it sits, like most do on the east cost. Then i move up and find out that my tcase yet again is leaking, so i call a diffrent dealer and it goes in, takes them about 2 weeks, bran new tcase this time around, and i get it back, and 4 days later, my trans takes a crap, so it was down for 6months, with a few problems, got it all put back to gether late in 2005 runs like a champ and about 400miles later the oil pump desides to eat its self, so its been sitting since. so in total, i have driven this car 11k since i got it in 2003, and last year i drove it 400mils.

So i cant tell you how it will be driven. Im not a street racer, i say take it to the track and run it or show my your time slips. Some times yeah i have ran it on the street.

This car if i deside to rebuild it with the damage done to it (glass and body damage) will be my street/track/show. Show and more then go car in others as i describe it to my father.

I did take a look at the one members here with a 50trim and hes doing what i want to do but im shocked that its done on stock internals, but i dont see someone telling him to look at compressor maps for his 50trim turbo and being told it might be to much of a turbo

I hope this helps with the "MAGIC" answer now, that i wasnt even looking for.
But thanks DR1665.

 

[dr1665]

I hope this helps with the "MAGIC" answer now, that i wasnt even looking for.
But thanks DR1665.

Thanks for being cool about things, man. It makes things easier for all of us, ya know?

Personally, and this is just coming from an all motor DSMer who's 4G63 hasn't run in probably three years or more, I'd suggest the following for you, given your run of shitty luck.

6-bolt bottom end. You need reliability, imo. If you can do a common swap and eliminate even a shred of doubt in your engine, you'll be better off. Opt for the simple Wiseco/Eagle combo. You probably won't need forged internals for a while, but if you're building from scratch, you might as well give yourself room to grow, right?
Benefit: Lower cost, proven reliability, plenty capable of 400hp and beyond (room to grow).

Start off on a relatively simple plan for your turbo. Coming from the land of the 2GNT, I hear a lot of good things about the 16G. I'm also rather fond of the less common 18G and more than a few of the T28 varieties. Remember, you said you were a "nooblet" yourself, so you accept the fact that you've got a lot to learn. I would suggest starting out with a more common, and simpler turbo (if there is such a thing). Remember, you're going to have a built block, meaning your go-faster plans will never be much more than a turbo/manifold swap away after this. Save some cash by getting a slightly smaller, more affordable turbo now, and invest in the rest of your car while you get used to the new machine you've built.
Benefit: Lower cost (again), proven results, easier to upgrade later than the engine.

Don't forget your fuel system! Personally, I'd rather run an E316G and have money left for DSMlink than drop a huge wad on a polished GT42R and then have to save up for anything. Get the car running!
Benefit: Very popular tool, get the most out of whatever turbo you start with, will work with whatever turbo you might upgrade to in the future.

Next thing I would address is your transmission. Personally, I'd ditch the slushbox if you can afford it. With all the issues you've had so far, I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't call up Shep before you had your motor figured out. Invest in quality right up front and spare yourself any more unnecessary downtime.
Benefit: Proven reliability, manual transmissions are all the rage these days.

See how I worked with what you gave me? I'm all about gradually stepping down into the project from the big picture. You figure out how you want to drive the car, then you start making smaller projects of things. When you know what you want, you can make much more informed decisions and save yourself both valuable time and hard-earned cash.

Good luck to you.

 

[Grimis]

Ok, ill try to ask about diffrent areas as you broke it up for me
Turbo:
I did have a smaller turbo as you would say, the Evo3, had it about 5months before the oil pump, never realy got to see what it can do, but from what i read, its not where i want to be. Most ive read people opt'ed to go 50trim instead of messing with the 16g, but i see your point, but cost wise, fully ported evo3 with install kit from extreme is 810 and 50trim from denjon is 890. just to give you an insite of the pricing i found. to do my setup with ether an evo or the 50trim , its about a diffrence of $180 give or take a few bucks.

Engine:
6bolt bottom end with 2g head, I was realy thinking of going that way with it, simple install, just a few tweeks here and there. Thats probley going to be the way i go, You rec eagle/wisco, any reason not to go ross? But yeah, im tired of pissing around with the motor, even tho what happend is the first time, i just want to make it the last time for awile.

Trans:
yeah ive had my problems with the "slushbox" as you say, but ross went 9's on his from ipt, and thats the same from mine. I did look at sheps trans, but i dont have $4k to drop into swaping my car to manual, yeah its a bit pricey, or i can go to junkyards and get the parts, where i live there is 3 yards, and all the 2g's in thos yards are N/A's and have been stripped.

I do thank for you input, better put then what ive have read here and elsewere. sorry for going off halfcocked with no shells in the chamber so to speak.

 

[ddavisaf]

I'm lazy and don't feel like reading every word so I'll just go from here...
The 6 bolt swap/2g head combo isn't difficult at all. There isn't much info, I agree and I appologize. I've been meaning to make a write up about it but things have kept me from doing so.
I'm running exactly that in my vehicle. 6 bolt block with a 2g head. There aren't any tricks to it other than the motor mount. I had difficult lining my head up with my block but from what I've gathered it's a fluke occurance. IF this happens, just shave an angle into one of the dowel pins on the block so that the head will slide on easier. Be careful with the metal shavings when you do this. Other than that, trim the motor mount like normal, change the CAS like normal, etc. etc. It's very similar to the full 6 bolt swap. The gasket kit will need to be custom ordered. Jackson Auto Machine is where I got mine from. Just tell Carmela what you're doing and she'll hand build you a kit.

Alright. I've rambled enough. If you have any questions about the swap just post 'em in here and we'll get them answered for you.

 

[Grimis]

Sweet i was just about to ask ., so there will be a custom gasket kit needed, what did it run you?

Im reading the magnus motorsports pdf on there swap, but mostly for a full 6bolt swap.

Did you use all of the 2gs upper parts? like the intake manifold, TB, basicly every thing that attached to the head?

looking at 6bolt bottom end, with custom gasket kit from jackson auto machine, my 2g head checked, new cams, and do the mods as stated in magnus pdf, Its a bit confusing for me being auto besides i know i need a kiggy kit, but every thing else should (cross's fingers) fall into place.

any help with the install and what would be needed besides the mentioned things that be great, thanks for the help

 

[gSx_r1der]

*EDIT*: I've done your dirty work for you. Go look at the profile of gSx_r1der and just copy everything He did. GL

Why would you recommend emulating my setup????

He could achieve the same results using some 660's an safc, 50trim, and meth inj or c16. Which is far cheaper than what I spent on my setup. I was running at 67%idc when I dynoed my car so its def doable on a stock block 50trim and some know how. Also listen to these guys about reading and researching. We've all spent countless hours up on the internet reading thread after thread here, and other dsm forums obtaining the very info we are regurgitating to you. Seek and you shall find.

 

[hopeformylife]

Why would you recommend emulating my setup????

He could achieve the same results using some 660's an safc, 50trim, and meth inj or c16. Which is far cheaper than what I spent on my setup. I was running at 67%idc when I dynoed my car so its def doable on a stock block 50trim and some know how. Also listen to these guys about reading and researching. We've all spent countless hours up on the internet reading thread after thread here, and other dsm forums obtaining the very info we are regurgitating to you. Seek and you shall find.

Sorry, I was really just trying to prove a point. I don't actually expect anyone to copy what You did. Sorry again.