Running Rich?

[avw0516]

Ok, I am somewhat of a newbie here so please just bear with me. When I bought my car I was told it has 550cc fuel injectors in it, but it has no source of fuel control. I passed the emissions fine, but I have no idea if this would tell me if I'm running rich or not. Also the car smokes a good deal, its not oil though. Is there any way to adjust the fuel without getting an (s)afc? The only reason I'm asking this is because just recently my clutch went so I have spent all my money on that and a flywheel. By possible running rich am I losing power? Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
-Andrew

 

[andymoraitis]

There's a number of ways you can tell if it's rich:

1. Are you blowing black smoke at wide open throttle?
2. Have you pulled your spark plugs to see if they're wet or have carbon fouling?
3. Is your gas mileage awful?

Over and above this, there are additional things you can do to verify a rich condition:

1. Hook up a datalogger and see what the O2 volts are doing.
2. Hook up a wideband O2 and see the air/fuel ratio is
3. Go to a dyno and have them hook up a wideband for a few pulls.

You may be well advised to pull your injectors and see if they are 450's or 550's. Most aftermarket injectors will have a number etched into them. Loosen the three bolts on the top of your fuel rail and you should be able to turn an injector sideways to have a look. If you do have larger injectors, then you definitely will run rich without some form of fuel control. At this point, you have a few more options:

1. Add an EPROM ECU with a Keydiver chip to control them (http://www.dsmchips.com)
2. Add an SAFC to control them.
3. Add an EPROM ECU and DSM Link to control them.

Also, if you have larger injectors, it would be a great idea to add a 190 fuel pump to get the most out of them (depending on your goals). Keep in mind that bigger is not better as a 255 will require an andjustable fuel pressure regulator and additional tuning.

Finally, it's always a good idea to perform a boost leak test since this will make you run rich as well. You can find more information here:

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/ICtester.html

My sneaking suspicion is that if you passed emissions, the car likely doesn't have 550's in it. Keep in mind that unless the computer is modified or you're running some form of fuel control, your air/fuel ratio will run at 9.5:1 (very rich) to keep the motor safe. You can run an AFC or an EPROM ECU with custom fuel and timing maps, but without a bigger injectors or fuel pump, it's really not worth it.

That's a lot of info, but I hope it helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

Andy

P.S. What color is the smoke you're seeing and is it something you're seeing all the time, at idle, at full throttle? Give us a bit more info.

 

[avw0516]

Well since that basically confirmed my thoughts on running rich I decided to go and hack my mas. How far should I back the isc (the screw it tells you to back out) out? I dont want to detonate my engine so I dont want to run too lean. Will backing it out all the way cause a problem?

 

[ADrewzki]

Well since that basically confirmed my thoughts on running rich I decided to go and hack my mas. How far should I back the isc (the screw it tells you to back out) out? I dont want to detonate my engine so I dont want to run too lean. Will backing it out all the way cause a problem?

WTF Why would you go and hack your mas? You are complicating problems in my mind by doing so. Instead of messing with the mas and the biss (not the isc), why don't you try to find out what's really causing you to run rich. If it's injectors, get something to tune with. If it's because you are unaware you have a huge pump, get an AFPR.

 

[andymoraitis]

WTF Why would you go and hack your mas? You are complicating problems in my mind by doing so. Instead of messing with the mas and the biss (not the isc), why don't you try to find out what's really causing you to run rich. If it's injectors, get something to tune with. If it's because you are unaware you have a huge pump, get an AFPR.

I couldn't agree more. Well said!

Andy

 

[avw0516]

Alright, I guess I will just have to run rich for a bit until I get the money to get any of the proper tuning equipment. Thanks for the advice though guys.
-Andrew

 

[andymoraitis]

Andrew,

We're not trying to rain on your parade by any means, but we want you to find out WHY she's rich, if she really is in the first place. A great place to start is with a logger and this is something you can keep throughout the car's life to let you know exactly what's happening. By getting an O2 volts reading, you'll be able to tell what your next step should be.

As I mentioned above:

1. Check and be sure that you really have 550's
2. Perform a proper boost leak test
3. Verify your fuel pump size as mentioned above

If you have 550's and a stock fuel pump, you may want to invest in a 190 pump so that you can take advantage of them. In that vein, reference my post above and invest in some form of fuel control. That way you can turn up the boost and log it to see what's happening to timing and knock values. If you're still a little rich and she's not knocking, you can back out the MAS screw and log again. Change one thing at a time and re-log, but always remember that a logger is your friend.

Let me know if that helps, k?

Andy

 

[avw0516]

Sorry if I sounded like I was blowing you guys off, I'm 16 can you tell? Seriously though thanks a lot for the help. So by logger I assume that you mean a pocket logger/dsm link opposed to an safc. Would I need both or can the logger do the same thing? How much would the logger and whatever else I needed cost me? Thanks for the help.

Also I have verified that I have a stock pump, still not sure about the injectors. How hard are they to take out? As for the boost leak test, not that I won't do it, but what is the purpose of that. Also my boost is turned up to 15psi (on the 14b) and my boost gauge seems to be working fine, would this knock out the boost leak issue or not?

 

[bullettdsm]

Andrew,
Hang tight, you're doing fine. These guys are directing you properly, follow the advice.

Not necesarily on the boost question. There may be a leak even if you boost into your max. It just may take more pressure for your boost to get there (offset by the leak). BUT, I would start with identifying your injectors first. That way you know where you stand as far as fuel input. taking them out is not that daunting a task. You should get yourself a Chilton's or Haynes to work with. I am thinking that I did see this in Vfaq, but I am not really positive. If you feel worried about it then feel free to PM any of the guys above (or myself) and we will walk you through it ( I have seen these guys on here long enough to know that I think I can speak for them on this subject. Andy and ADrewzki please let me know if I am out of line). You will find that this particular sight is a bit more friendly to helping the newbie than others. Good luck,
MB

 

[avw0516]

Thanks so much. I guess that in a few days (kind of busy right now) I will get on identifying the injectors. 450's are stock right? If I do have 550's then I definately need a logger right? I am still not completely sure what you guys mean by logger but I will look into it. Thanks for helping me out.
-Andrew

 

[avw0516]

I know this is somewhat of a worthless post, but when I clicked those links my Norton Anti Virus picked up a trojan. Just a warning guys.

Thanks for the informaton on the logger. Will I need an safc as well as a palm and the software to properly tune all of it? Thanks to everyone helping me.
-Andrew

 

[andymoraitis]

I know this is somewhat of a worthless post, but when I clicked those links my Norton Anti Virus picked up a trojan. Just a warning guys.

Thanks for the informaton on the logger. Will I need an safc as well as a palm and the software to properly tune all of it? Thanks to everyone helping me.
-Andrew

Andrew,

I'm glad you're understanding where to go and respecting our advice since we want to save you the time and heartache so many of us have already gone through. The logger will basically tell you what's going on, but you can't tune with it in the sense that you would be able to make changes by taking away or adding fuel. That's something you'd need an AFC to do. The logger tells the real deal and then the AFC would allow you to make your tuning adjustments.

Drop us a line if you need a hand with your injectors.

Andy

 

[andymoraitis]

If you feel worried about it then feel free to PM any of the guys above (or myself) and we will walk you through it ( I have seen these guys on here long enough to know that I think I can speak for them on this subject. Andy and ADrewzki please let me know if I am out of line).

Nope, you're right on target. We'll help any way we can!

Andy

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

Until you get some sort of fuel control, you could always use the DIY POT mod:

(Logger HIGHLY recommended at this point, so you can see what you are doing with the car)

http://www.ecanfix.com/~mdhamilton/fuelmod.html

True, this offers a rough adjustment of the amount of fuel the ECU adds or doesn't add, but combined with an AFC it actually helps me get a better tune then with just the AFC alone.

Note: These types of adjustments will effect everything accross the board... While in closed loop, the fuel trims will try and even everything out, but you will see the benefits os this setup while in WOT.

 

[avw0516]

So basically I shouldn't try to control my fuel before I get a logger. By hacking my mas or doing the mod listed above it could be risky to the lofe of my since I really have no idea what it is doing...right? Another question about that mod is why would you do that? I mean if you need a logger to do it properly why don't you just use the logger to do it? I have a feeling that I have totally missed the point of the logger, does it actually allow you to tune like an safc or does it just tell you what is going on so that you can tune manually or with an safc? Also how user-friendly are these units (logger and/or safc)? Since this would be my first time "tuning" a car I really need something that is fairly easy to use. Thanks a lot.
-Andrew

 

[92awddsm]

Just one quick question, what color are the injectors? The 450's will have a blue top and I have yet to see any aftermarket injector that color. If they are blue, you should start looking elsewhere for a problem instead of trying to use an afc or the like as a bandaid.

 

[avw0516]

I haven't pulled the injectors yet. What else could be the problem (all the smoke), the car is not burning oil and it does seem to get crappy gas mileage. I guess the only way I will know is by pulling the injectors which I plan to do i a few days.

 

[talonkev]

umm stock blue top injectors are 450's not 550's

 

[andymoraitis]

Andrew,

Consider a logger as a tool that allows you to capture data about what the motor's doing. Typically, when you do a 3rd gear pull from 2000-7000 RPM, you'll get info on O2 values, RPM, timing, knock, fuel trims etc. This is information you'll use to make changes with the AFC. The logger tells you what's up and the air/fuel controller lets you make the necessary adjustments to optimize the tuning.

Step one will be to see what injectors you have. Hell, a camera phone picture from the side of the fuel rail should help, but the best bet is to pull one. Injectors are priority one because if they're stock and the fuel pump is stock, then there's no point in even talking about air/fuel controllers and the like unless you plan to upgrade the fuel system and run more boost. Also, take out a sparkplug or two and post a picture so we can see what they look like.

Remember, the first thing is to identify what's there before making any changes.

Hang in there,

Andy

 

[92awddsm]

umm stock blue top injectors are 450's not 550's

Sorry, I was thinking faster than I was typing. It is corrected now.

 

[92awddsm]

I haven't pulled the injectors yet. What else could be the problem (all the smoke), the car is not burning oil and it does seem to get crappy gas mileage. I guess the only way I will know is by pulling the injectors which I plan to do i a few days.

You dont have to pull the injectors to see what color they are. Just look at them.

 

[andymoraitis]

I haven't pulled the injectors yet. What else could be the problem (all the smoke), the car is not burning oil and it does seem to get crappy gas mileage. I guess the only way I will know is by pulling the injectors which I plan to do i a few days.

Poor fuel mileage can also be a bad front O2 sensor. A logger, when hooked up, will also pull all of your check engine codes and you can compare them to a table to see what they mean.

Andy

P.S. I STILL need to know what color the smoke is and when it occurs (startup, only when cold, full throttle, between shifts, etc, etc). The more info you give us, the more we can help.

 

[avw0516]

Its black smoke, the more you get on the gas the more comes out. It's not "tons" of smoke, but it is quite visable. It comes out pretty steadily, a bit more on a bad shift (too long on the clutch like in a parking lot when you are trying to go slow).

Also I have found that you do need a "logger" and an safc. I would like to go with the pocketlogger because it is about $400 cheaper than the dsmlink, but what losses would I be suffering by doing so. Would the pocketlogger let me know if I had a bad O2 sensor, or would it be insuficient? Also is it necessary to get an safc or would an afc be fine. In the future I would like to upgrade to a Walbro 190, how would I tune that?

Thanks
-Andrew

 

[andymoraitis]

Andrew,

Black smoke is fuel. Remember that the factory air/fuel ratio is 9.5:1 (9.5 parts air to 1 part fuel). The higher that first number gets, the leaner the car becomes. Tuning is actually a complex mix of a number of variables, but what makes big horsepower is tweaking of the air/fuel ratios and timing advance relative to boost levels and the ability to maintain a cool intake charge. Since your ECU is untouched, you will naturally run at 9.5:1 and a max of 16 degrees of timing. When you stomp the gas, she WILL blow black smoke. I had this at lower A/F ratios as well and it's common on stock fuel and timing maps which are designed to be "safe".

As far as the difference between a pocketlogger and DSM Link, the two are in entirely different categories. The logger, as I mentioned earlier is a tool for collecting data. You can't change your tune with it, but you can see the effect of a tuning change by logging a before and after and seeing the effects (positive or negative). And yes, it can pick up a trouble code for anything that would trip a check engine light.

DSM Link is one step below a standalone engine management system. It's a tuning system that you would access with a laptop and an EPROM ECU and it will allow you to monitor and change tuning parameters. On a stock car, it's overkill, but when you start getting into injector and fuel pump mods, it becomes an invaluable tool.

The AFC and AFC-II are basically the same thing except the SAFC is a second generation unit, while the original AFC was a knob style device. Typically, the AFC-II is preferred since it has better tuning functions than the knob style, BUT you only need one of these if you do indeed have larger injectors. Once we get past the phase of verifying your injector size then we can make recommendations on the type of fuel control you need.

At that point, I'll also clue you in to the posibilties open to you with an EPROM ECU and a Keydiver chip. This is what controls all of my fuel, timing and injector compensation. It's about the same price as an AFC and chip upgrades are fairly inexpensive, but we'll discuss that when we reach that point.

Finally, you don't actually make any tuning changes for a 190 fuel pump. I added one when I had stock injectors and since it overran the stock fuel pressure regulator minimally, it allowed me to run more boost without changing anything else. If I had added a 255 then I would have need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator since that does overrun the stock regulator. When larger injectors are added, THEN fuel control is needed so that they don't flood the combustion chamber. The goal with any injector larger than stock is to trigger it so the car thinks it's still a 450cc unit. The AFC does this by subtracting airflow and taking fuel away and the Keydiver chip and DSM Link do this through what' are referred to as deadtime and global adjustments.

Whew! Did I get it all?

Andy

 

[avw0516]

Wow, I can't even begin to explain how much that helped me. I sure hope you got it all (for the time being). Just out of curiosity how long have you been in the dsm scene, your knowledge on the subject is rediculous.

So the smoke could be coming from stock injectors, but I won't know until I pull them. Also I have got what I think may be fuel cuts before, they happened mainly in the top of 3rd gear and through 4th, I'm not sure if thats what it was so I will try to describe it. Basically it felt like someone was shifting very poorly, it was very jerky and it would keep doing it until I let off the gas all the way. If this is a fuel cut why am I getting it with an all stock fuel system, or why would a bigger injector cause this? If I have stock injectors and I want to upgrade my fuel system ideally should I start with the pump because it will max out the injectors opposed to maxing out the pump.

The pocketlogger should be fine for my application I think. My main question is what actual tuning device(s) to pair it with. I am somewhat glad that the dsmlink is overkill for me seeing as it is atleast $600 for everything needed.

Thank you so much. I will send you a pm when I pull the injectors, or when I have money (might be a while, paying off act2600 + install )

If you have time could you explain the whole eprom thing to me, if not its fine, you have spent plenty of time on me today. I have tried to search it, but all I came up with is that you need you ecu socketed for it. What is the benefit of the eprom+Keydrive opposed to an safc?

One last question, maybe a dumb one. I am using the stock intake with a new filter right now and soon I want a hard intake, by doing so I still use the stock mas right? A new pipe shouldn't affect anything should it.

Thank you so much for helping me through this. I hope someday I can understand as much as you do about dsm's.
-Andrew

P.S.
I'm going to go to sleep now its 11:15 in Ohio. Be back in the morning.