Extremely rich fuel mixture car wont start

[TT_Stealth]

Ok heres the situation. I just got the car back from a friend who I sold it to. Its a 1990 Eagle Talon TSI AWD. He gave it back to me reporting that it ran like crap, so his fix was a universal o2 sensor, which he claimed he saved 20 bucks over the OEM. He hooked it up all backwards, got the grounds switched and all in the wiring. Thats all he has told me that has gone on. I go out to the store and buy the right o2 sensor that is actual OEM and install it. I go to try and start the car up and no luck. I pull all 4 plugs and find that i could start a fire with the amount of fuel on them. I turn down the AFC and GM MAF setting to as lean as possible. I blow the excess fuel off of the plugs. Then let the car sit for about 30 minutes to let all the excess fuel clear out of the combustion chambers. I then install all 4 plugs again and proceed to crank it over. Once again no luck with a start, so I pull the plugs and the exact same thing, the plugs are drenched with fuel. Anyone have any suggestions of what this problem might be? With both fuel controllers leaned out as much as possible and still a rich start up....it puzzles me! Any suggestions would be nice, thanks - Mike

 

[hystericfox]

What fuel system mods do you have? Is the MAF plugged in? Is it even firing?

 

[Black95TSIawd]

maybeh the coolant temp sensor? try replacing that. can probably get one for like 20 to 30 bux at your local parts store.

 

[Bohrn]

check for spark. no spark = no burn.

check for correct fuel pressure. Too much and its gonna flood like a bastard.

do a compression check for the fun of it, while you have the plugs out anyways.

I suspect ignition, but it could be a few things.

 

[dsm_bboy]

The MAF is plugged in, AFC wiring is good and no solders have broken on the wiring into the ECU. I didnt cut any wires on the ECU harness. I just shaved the outer cover and then crimped the wiring to the ECU wires, then soldered it all. The fuel mod I have is a Walbro 255hp fuel pump. stock injectors, fuel rail, and FPR. I have all of the wiring correctly installed as well. I have never seen anything like this except for when I fried the ECU on my twin turbo stealth. The thing I noticed on the stealth was that the factory boost gauge was reading + pressure on start up, so in turn it dumped large amounts of raw fuel in on startup. Basically the ECU works off of 3 things to get correct fuel amounts on start up and underway. They are the Barometric pressure sensor, the air temp sensor, and the MAS sensor. My stock boost gauge on the talon has no reading that is erroneous, so I am cancelling out the fact of any of those sensors being bad. Any suggestions with all of this said?

 

[urcnjoe]

The MAF is plugged in, AFC wiring is good and no solders have broken on the wiring into the ECU. I didnt cut any wires on the ECU harness. I just shaved the outer cover and then crimped the wiring to the ECU wires, then soldered it all. The fuel mod I have is a Walbro 255hp fuel pump. stock injectors, fuel rail, and FPR. I have all of the wiring correctly installed as well. I have never seen anything like this except for when I fried the ECU on my twin turbo stealth. The thing I noticed on the stealth was that the factory boost gauge was reading + pressure on start up, so in turn it dumped large amounts of raw fuel in on startup. Basically the ECU works off of 3 things to get correct fuel amounts on start up and underway. They are the Barometric pressure sensor, the air temp sensor, and the MAS sensor. My stock boost gauge on the talon has no reading that is erroneous, so I am cancelling out the fact of any of those sensors being bad. Any suggestions with all of this said?

That 255 lph (not hp) is over running the stock FPR. You need to purchase an Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator (AFPR), to help control the amount of fuel that 255 is putting out. Also upgraded injectors is needed very soon if your running the evo III on stock injectors. Keep the boost low and take it easy on it until you get the proper fuel mods.

 

[dsm_bboy]

Compression reads 150 across all 4 cylinders. Only have 112,000 miles on the engine and chassis. I suspect it may being a leaking injectors so I will check that as well. I will replace all the plugs as well, b/c I know he messed with the fuel controller and they looked super toasty. I will get back with my results for all of these tests and let everyone know whats up.

 

[urcnjoe]

The MAF is plugged in, AFC wiring is good and no solders have broken on the wiring into the ECU. I didnt cut any wires on the ECU harness. I just shaved the outer cover and then crimped the wiring to the ECU wires, then soldered it all. The fuel mod I have is a Walbro 255hp fuel pump. stock injectors, fuel rail, and FPR. I have all of the wiring correctly installed as well. I have never seen anything like this except for when I fried the ECU on my twin turbo stealth. The thing I noticed on the stealth was that the factory boost gauge was reading + pressure on start up, so in turn it dumped large amounts of raw fuel in on startup. Basically the ECU works off of 3 things to get correct fuel amounts on start up and underway. They are the Barometric pressure sensor, the air temp sensor, and the MAS sensor. My stock boost gauge on the talon has no reading that is erroneous, so I am cancelling out the fact of any of those sensors being bad. Any suggestions with all of this said?

The 255lph (255hp) pump is over running your stock FPR. An Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator is need to help control the amount of fuel that the 255 is flowing. Also if your profile is for the car in question you need to upgrade the injectors to safely run that Evo III turbo. Keep the boost low and take it easy until you get the proper fuel mods.

 

[urcnjoe]

how did that happen

 

[Bohrn]

You say you didn't cut any SAFC/ECU wires on the install?

Well, that might be the problem right there!! One wire(I forget the colour, pink? green?) HAS to be cut!

this is the wire that the SAFC intercepts the signal from and sends its modified signal back to the ECU on. If its not cut, the signal is not changed from stock.

This one wire is really the main purpose of the SAFC, to change the MAF reading before it gets to the ECU. it comes from the maf, goes into the SAFC and then goes out to the maf.

also pay attention to the order of the 2 ground wires, its apparently important, or so it says in the Apex'i manual.

 

[PSIcho]

Again, have you checked for spark? I haven't seen you mention it yet.

 

[bullettdsm]

The 255lph (255hp) pump is over running your stock FPR. An Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator is need to help control the amount of fuel that the 255 is flowing. Also if your profile is for the car in question you need to upgrade the injectors to safely run that Evo III turbo. Keep the boost low and take it easy until you get the proper fuel mods.

Hey, I'll repeat it again just to be sure that the message got across. If you have a stock or a B+M APR get rid of it. Also, as stated previously, check for spark. If neither of these it could very well be stuck or leaky injector (s).
MB

 

[TT_Stealth]

Well I checked we do have spark....but I am going to replace the plugs just in case. I also replaced the coolant temperature sensor, I tried to start it and once again to backfires and then nothing. The car cranks fine but still no kicking over or even sounding like it is going to start. I know the car was ran super rich by him, but I cant figure that something as simple as plugs will be causing this circumstance with the vehicle. Any further suggestions?

 

[PSIcho]

You really need to find out how much fuel pressure you're running since, as others have pointed out, that B&M FPR is being over run. Now for some reason, if the car was previously running with that setup then you really need to check for timing now. Make sure timing marks are all aligned and not just on the cam sprockets but all the bottom ones too like the crank (and 2 others I just can't remember right now).

Also, if things aren't working as they should its normal to see the plugs drenched like that. It only takes a couple attempts to soak'em specially with your B&M on there.

 

[Turbo Talon DL]

I had a similar problem like that one time, but my ecu was fried...I had fuel, and the car even back fired a couple times when I cranked it over. There was lots of gas being shot out, but no fire. This problem sounds almost like the one I was having. Dont thinks like this happen when the caps inside the ecu explode and leak the electrolytic juice everywhere?

 

[TT_Stealth]

I ahd the ECU capacitors eplaced about 3 months ago by Pina motorsports. This makes no sense at all.....I took the fuel rail off today and hooked up the injectors, they seem to be firing ok, a fine mist of fuel and not stuck open or anything. The spark is good but I am going to replace the transistor and stuff that has to do with the ignition. I will purchse an aftermarket FPR. I have ran the car before with the exact same setup including fuel pump with no problems. Thats why i dont think that the fuel pump is over-running the stock FPR. Its been used befoe like this. But I will eliminate it just to be sure.

 

[PSIcho]

Don't start shooting in the dark until you finished the basic troubleshooting steps. Check for TIMING. If thats not it we'll move on to the next step.

 

[MNGSX]

Check the basics... however if he got the O2 heater wires crossed up with the o2 sense leads he could have easily toasted the ECU..

Alot of ppl who dont know what they are doing mess up a universal o2 install..

Normal wiring logic does not apply 2 o2 color codes on cars..

A DSM WILL START AND RUN W/O an O2 sensor plugged in....

 

[TT_Stealth]

Timing (valve) is fine, just checked it, still getting the same super rich condition as before...... So far I have checked these things and they have checked out to be under manufacturers specs: fuel injectors, getting correct spark, enough airflow into cylinders, valve timing is correct, (I don't know how to check a non-distributor timed engine for proper ignition without it running), ECT sensor, and fuel pump. The ECU capacitors are fine, no evidence of leakage, GM MAF is plugged in, all wires are correctly installed and the wire that needs to be soldered is still secure. The AFC-II is correctly installed, wiring is correct including the placement of both brown and black ground wires. No solders have broken on that either. Any further suggestions with all of these eliminated?

 

[MNGSX]

Unplug the injectors and turn it over..

If it has'nt been cleared of excess fuel eventually it will blow it out and run for a little bit. then die... If it does'nt blow out/ clear the whole engine of fuel and turn it over with the injectors still unpluged. If the plugs are still wet its the injectors.

 

[Bohrn]

I was going to suggest something similar. Disconnect the fuel pump electrically so it can't run.

Then crank it a few times. if it fires and catches, then dies, spray some brake cleans into the throttle body(disconnect the connector to the maf) while cranking. if it runs on the brake cleans, then its got good timing, valve timing, compression and spark.

 

[PSIcho]

Again, did you check if you're timing marks are all aligned? You gotta make sure the cam sprockets, crank sprockets and oil pump sprockets are all lined up correctly to make sure that timing is good.

http://www.vfaq.com/mods/timingbelt-1G.html

 

[Maglin]

Ok wow. Your O2 sensor doesn't even work for about 3-8 minutes so it won't effect start up. The SAFC also doesn't do squat during cranking as it using a cranking start up routen so no MAF and thus no SAFC will hurt it. I doubt the Fuel pressure would cause this either. Now a bad coolant temp sensor will cause this very same thing. You end up cranking on it for like 5 minutes and it will eventually start maybe. I've had this happen on a unmodded car so with bigger injectors the problem is multiplied.

Just spend $40 on a new coolant temp sensor and come back here and say. I got it fixed thank you.

 

[bullettdsm]

This is for you, urcnjoe. I'll try one more time.

You mentioned fuel pump. Yes it is working but that is not the question. The pressure of a 255 is normally too much for a stock FPR. It needs to be lowered. The B+M does not lower pressure. Now that being said, if you have the B+M or stock pressure reg in there, you will need to change it. If you have an AFPR that is running somewhere in the 38-43 range then you should be OK with that. If that is the case, I would question how you checked your injectors. I did have 2 bad 550s once that generated the problem you describe. They just flooded out the chamber and it was very hard to start.

Just thought I would mention that one more time because this thread is still going.
MB