my plans...im taking the different route (anyone thought of doing this?)

[greathuskie]

the first 2 things im gonna buy are gonna be an intake manifold and and a tubular exhaust manifold

THEN im gonna start with all the basics, because if my "theory" is right, after getting these 2 things, i will see better gains out of an intake and an exhaust and later down the road a bigger turbo and other bolt ons, and i wont have to worry about it later either


think it will work?

 

[CBgst]

Unless you plan on making really big hp those are both a waste of money. A 1st gen intake is an upgrade on 2nd gens though. I think you will see better results doing it the proven way. You could do all the mods you plan on doing and decide you don't even need the mani's. That's my opinion.

 

[greathuskie]

im trying to get as much power from bolt-ons as possible so i dont need to up the boost as much to hit a time i want, and it leaves me more room to up the boost later to go faster

 

[larryd]

why go against a proven way? Thats my thoughts.

 

[greathuskie]

to see if another way works better

 

[CBgst]

Well with the t-25 if you don't up the boost off the bat then your waisting your time and money beacause you'll never get anywhere.

 

[Goblin]

Originally posted by CBgst
Unless you plan on making really big hp those are both a waste of money. A 1st gen intake is an upgrade on 2nd gens though. I think you will see better results doing it the proven way. You could do all the mods you plan on doing and decide you don't even need the mani's. That's my opinion.

You won't get a straiter/better answer than that.

It's like having head work done, without supporting mods it's not going to do you a damn thing except empty your bank account.

 

[DrZiplok]

So you have to ask yourself; "Am I the first person who's thought of doing things this way"? Given the number of people tweaking DSMs, the answer has to be "no". So the next question is, "if this way worked, why aren't these people who must have thought of it before me doing it"?

And the answer is, of course, that they tried it and it *didn't* work. There are good ways to improve the performance of your ride. Over the years, they've been boiled down into the basics that you find in the performance guides here and on other sites. People do these things because they work. They don't do what you're proposing because it doesn't work.

You have to remember that people have been making these cars fast for thirteen years now. What works and doesn't work has pretty much been established; what room there is for innovation lies in entirely new techniques and refinement. Not applying 1960's V8 methodology to the problem. 8)

 

[greathuskie]

ive never heard of anyone doing it so thats why i proposed it

ahh well, if you guys are sure it will be pointless

 

[jncbmx516]

yeah, buy an intake and exhaust, you'll see more from gains from that! The tubular header and intake mani, will cost you over a grand, you may as well go buy a turbo or something useful. If you get your stock 2G exhaust manifold ported and leave your stock 2G intake manifold, they will support your engine well enough to get into the 11's
how fast do you want to go? hope this helps!

 

[BatmanGSX]

If you have to ask about doing something different then don't expect it to be a revolutionary idea. People don't do what you are proposing for a good reason. You know nobody does it and that's why you had to ask instead of trying it first. Good plan. Just be prepared for it to be shot down.

If you put a big intake manifold on stock car it's going suck a$$. You are going to start making power just when the T25 stops making power. Your car will feel flat everywhere.

I would get someone to do a really nice port job on an EVOIII manifold before I bought a header or something (unless I was switching to a Garrett or something). Ported EVO manifolds have ran 9s. Do you really think you will benefit from a tubular header? It's not like anyone making them knows what they are doing better than the engineers who designed the stock pieces. I don't think anyone is going to see much of a benefit from a tubular header unless they have one that has equal length runners that are around 30" long (think Ferrari and old Turbo F1 cars).

Some new ideas should be tried for sure. What you are proposing just isn't one of them. Sorry to be so blunt about it.

 

[DSMJim]

I am building my own custom manifold at our shop. It will be a full stainless tubilar unit with an external wastegate section built in. I am going against the "proven" way as well because I want to run a turbonetics ball barring turbo not a 16/18/20G cartridge style turbocharger.

Other than DSM's most other turbo charged cars I have seen or built have t3/t4 style ball barring turbos on them. I just prefer the style myself, so it's a personal thing.

Here is a few pics of a turbo manifold we made for a miata.

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It was ceramic coated afterwards to help keep the heat in and make it pretty. The car running this manifold is currently the highest HP miata in the world and has the highest MPH world wide. (though not the fastest ET) 11.70 @ 127 with 450hp to the wheels dynoed with turbo nitrous. This car was built at our shop.

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Here is a pic of the manifold installed with a Turbonetics T3/T4 .54 A/R and Stage 5 exhaust.

A similar style will be built for my car, I will let everybody know how it goes and how it works. It was very successful on the Miata so I'm expecting it to work very well on the Talon as well however I will be going with a slightly larger turbo, probablly a .60 A/R and the same stage 5 exhaust. BatmanGSX is right the EVO manifold has brought cars into the 9's however I still want to run a Garrett turbo not a mitsibuishi turbo so the EVO manifold is no good for that, and no I am not going to use a plate to convert it over. ugh..

 

[larryd]

impressive manifold.

 

[Goblin]

That thing is beautiful.

 

[KenTSIII]

I'd go with the Garret Ballistics dual ball bearing turbo over any #@%#@%#@%#@% BB turbo that Turbonetics makes. Alot of Turbonetics turbo parts aren't even Garret anymore... they have them made over in taiwan somewhere. The Ballistic stuff is top notch.

PS.. manifold looks rather nice.

 

[DSMJim]

I will be talking with Turbonetics this week. The director of marketing and race support is a good friend of mine. I will ask him about the ball barring sections and where they come from just so we know.

I was under the impression that they were Garrett pieces still. Sit tight and I will get the full story hopefully today.

Thanks for the comments on the manifold. That was built by us at our shop. We will likely be making those for a variety of cars so there might be a limited number of them for 4G63's. You will see if if there is as one will be on my car as a tester.

 

[Arro]

To those who always suggest to go "by the book":

One of the few but truely the most significant things I DISlike about the DSM world is this tendency to tell people to do things the "proven" way without actually explaining to them why it works. Testimonial doesn't stand for much if only for the reason that too many people copying each other prevents innovative ideas that can yield us all new and improved ways of doing things.

This guy asked about his idea and all some of you said was "it doesn't work, go the proven route" (in so many words).

I applaud the guy making the tubular manifold (a truely beautiful piece to be sure). To the guy wanting to bolt on a big-ass intake mani and tubular exhaust:

Here is your answer, a custom exhaust manifold can indeed provide you more hp right off the bat, depending on design. Something you "by the book" guys and gals might not have considered: Scavenging. If the manifold is designed right, it can actually promote the engine's pumping actions due to improved scavenging. Runner lengths and IDs will make the difference there.

The flip-side of this is that the stock 2G manifold is plenty sufficient for all but professional setups. The cost of a custom tubular manifold designed carefully to improve scavenging is tremendous, and that money could be better spent on other supporting parts to go really really really fast with a 2G manifold instead. In other words it's not *practical* which is what should have been said to you in the first place.

The exeption to this would be the turbonetics cast manifold, although that is flanged for a T3 turbine housing and has a flange for an external gate too, so presumably someone buying that would also be going with a (really) biggie turbocharger and external gate (lots of $$$).

As far as the big-ass intake mani is concerned, all you will probably see is a decrease in low-end response, and a slight increase in top-end if you are a 2G. If you are a 1G, this increase is doubtfully going to be noticable. In either case, you can't take advantage of the improved intake mani geometry until you start pushing some major positive pressure, well beyond stock compressor ranges.

 

[4pistons]

Hey!! I just had an idea! Why not use a different shape for our wheels? Why do they have to be round? All I see is everyone copying each other. Have any of you guys tried it? No? Then it must be innovative!

Sometimes there are paths proven by experience and testing for the average guy to benefit from at relatively low cost. That is the way most of have fast DSMs.

Some guys are cutting edge, pushing the envelope with theory, design, testing, failure and then starting over. They invest alot of time, money, frustration and resources. They don't just trip over something innovative.

If you want to be that kind GO FOR IT! That is what makes America great! I can't afford to be when it comes to DSMs. I'll have to stick to the proven methods to make my car fast but I will admire the guy who moves to the edge and sticks with it and I will be impressed when he succeeds.

Rick - '91 GSX Quick, but not innovative!

 

[RocketDSM]

Hey huskie....DO IT. It's what you want to do. I say go for it. Will you regret it, maybe. I noticed one thing that I think a LOT of you missed, even you Arro. He didn't ask about what gains he would see with a tubular header and intake mani. He asked if it would help him feel the gains from LATER IMPROVEMENTS better. Hell yes it will. Like most of the people said, you probably aren't going to feel squat right now, and it's going to be expensive. If you are willing to go that route, GREAT. I for one did just that. I'm running nearly stock ignition and fuel systems and my ECU is getting no help from anything. I'm still ok with how my car runs because I know as I progress my later upgrades (or fixes as some call them) will net huge gains. When most people install a cat-back exhaust and get the 5-8HP (I'm just stereotyping so please no comments on the numbers) they can notice a seat of the pants kick or a little more speed on top. My point is that it's nothing major. You put a header on, and your not likely to feel anything now. But when you put YOUR cat-back on (or full custom, whatever) you find 12-15HP because your whole system is better versus everyone else's single piece improvement. Best point in fact...my lag. I have the worst lag of anyone I've talked to. I don't hit 10PSI until 3800 off a 16G. That is disgraceful. I know a few things that make it happen (stock downpipe, bad fuel system, etc.). I chose to follow my own path. Nothing wrong with it. If you want to do your manifolds first, then do so. It's your car, you follow the path that will make it truely YOUR car.

 

[DSMJim]

Sorry the old pics are now broken links, we just changed our website around.

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We will be making a manifold like this for my car to use a T3/T4 and I will cover my results. Naturally we expect them to be really great but we make them. Time will tell though.

As for research we went through about 6 different designes on the manifold before we found what worked and everything else that didn't. Plus we retail these for $400 so it's not like their expensive or anything. Sorry not trying to make a forsale post or anything at all just trying to show that it's not really expensive. I have seen some for $600+ which is a lot for an exhaust manifold.

Once pics are ready, don't worry i'll flood the web with them. You should see our SR20DET manifold too, it's pimp.

 

[jdmawd]

with that manifold does the turbo sit in the exact ame spot as the mitsu manifold. if it moves the turbo forward how much.

 

[DSMJim]

it will sit in virtually the same spot. That manifold is acctually for a miata, the dsm one is a little different however it keeps the turbo in the same spot so you don't have to modify your downpipe much to accept a garrett style turbo.

 

[leathal-eclipse]

here's my few words on this. to go with a tub header you will fell gaines in tq and hp, why becauce a tub header is less retrictive almost none. to say a stock manifold flows better isn't true(show me flow #'s and prove me wrong). look at the shape of booth pieces, stock goes straight out and hits a wall and then forced down( how does that make good power) tub header comes out takes a small journey up and then sraight down to the the turbo(no hitting walls provin better flow=more hp & tq) how can all of you say stock manifold is better when its not. that has been provin when the performance crave started

 

[DrZiplok]

Nobody is saying the stock manifold is "better". The observation is simply that the stock manifold is "good enough", and your efforts will be better rewarded elsewhere.

Jim is trying to do something else entirely, and in the process showing off how good his shop's welding is. 8)

 

[LaserRST]

Woa... both the manifolds will have back pressure cuz of the turbo. Flow numbers dont say much on turbo exhaust manifolds due to the fact that the turbo will restrict flow anyway.. The bad thing about tubulars is its stability, especially with a larger and more powerful turbo. There isnt a story about tubulars breaking at the welds because of the lack of support that I have yet to hear. But... cast manifolds tend to crack because of mettallurgic designs. Casting in mass quantities can lead to inconsistencies in the metal "grain" which tend to heat up faster and cool quicker causing hairline fissures. Weighing both the options people tend to go with 2g ported or the EVO manifolds cuz of cost and practicality. The purpose of the turbo exhaust manifold is slightly different than the N/A counterparts. Sure they both want to evacuate the spent feul as quickly as possible without creating pressure that will seep back into the combustion chambers. But on a turbo manifold the idea is to get the expanded, spent feul to the TURBO to allow the turbo to spool to create forced induction which will help evacuate spent feul. Sooooo.... the only tubular that may be more effective than the stock manifold is the equal length which has been proven to flow better to the turbo, but even then the amount is not to worry about for any street car. The same principle applies to the intake also. Dont go any bigger than the 1g... the Venom will flat line your powerband on a stock turbo. It will spike your power band on a larger turbo. Unless one plans on building a Drag car than both of these investments will be in vain in the long run. Just my 2 cents...