ARP Head Studs No Washers ?

[bad71camaro]

Well I guess I just got screwed guy mailed the studs that I bought from him with no washers. I am guessing that they are suposed to have washers. My question is can you run them with no washer and still be ok ? If not could I go to the local hardware store and just buy some washers ? I guess if these things wont work ill just order the washers from arp. Can you guys let me no something asap so I can put my order in if need be. As you can tell this delima is kind of holding me up

 

[spyder678]

I would say that you would definitely want to have washers.

 

[spoolinawddsm]

use your stockers.

 

[1fast97gsx]

use your stockers.

It's been a while since I played with a stock headstud ... but I don't think those come off without chopping up the stock stud. Just call arp and order a set of washers.

 

[ChicagoGSX]

It's been a while since I played with a stock headstud ... but I don't think those come off without chopping up the stock stud. Just call arp and order a set of washers.

1gs can reuse the stock head studs, but I wouldn't reccomend it. 2gs cannot reuse the headstuds since they stretch when torqued down. I agree though, just order a set of washer from ARP it will be worth it in the end.

 

[spoolinawddsm]

im not talking about using the stock headstuds... use the arps with the stock washers.

 

[myblack98gst]

yeah even if you have to cut the stock bolts up to get the washers out do it...

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

...Even if you were to cut the OE head bolts to remove the washers, you would need to enlarge the openings in them in order to fit them over the ARPs... Do yourself a favor, order the correct set of washers from ARP. -I'm sure that the local hardware store is not going to have the same strength/grade of washers.

-When you are ready to set the head on the block, put the washers in the head PRIOR to setting it on the block... Use some of ARP's moly lube to hold them in place in the head before you set it. -If you don't, you will not be able to get 2-3 of the washers around the valve springs with the studs in the head, and you will be faced with the same situation I was about 2 months ago... Either lift the head up again, install washers, drop it down again... OR... Walk over to the bench grinder and "D" shape a few of the washers in order to make them fit with the head already on the block. -Your choice... I have no comment on the route that I took

 

[bad71camaro]

Are you guys saying that these motors come stock with head studs ? Anyway I just went ahead and ordered the washers. But now I went to screw all of the bolts down on the studs and one of them will only go a .25 of the way down without having to force it. All of the threads on the studs and the bolt look good though. I hope my mechanic can get it to work any of you guys had this problem ?

 

[dynatos]

1gs can reuse the stock head studs, but I wouldn't reccomend it. 2gs cannot reuse the headstuds since they stretch when torqued down. I agree though, just order a set of washer from ARP it will be worth it in the end.

you can use your stock studs on a 2g (though i can't say i'd recommend it) if they haven't stretched out of spec.

As for the original poster, order the correct washers. Not only will you be getting the correct parts, but you'll feel better about having the correct stuff.

 

[BrokenTsi]

you can use your stock studs on a 2g (though i can't say i'd recommend it) if they haven't stretched out of spec.

As for the original poster, order the correct washers. Not only will you be getting the correct parts, but you'll feel better about having the correct stuff.

2g's have stock bolts, not studs. And whoever said you could reuse them on a 1g, but not a 2g is smokin crack. Why one and not the other? Head bolts stretch and twist especially under boost and high pressure, that's what they are designed to do. You should't reuse them period. I dont care if your uncle bob reused them or your friend down the street reuses them twice a week and gets away with it, it still shuldn't be done.

 

[Maglin]

2g's have stock bolts, not studs. And whoever said you could reuse them on a 1g, but not a 2g is smokin crack. Why one and not the other? Head bolts stretch and twist especially under boost and high pressure, that's what they are designed to do. You should't reuse them period. I dont care if your uncle bob reused them or your friend down the street reuses them twice a week and gets away with it, it still shuldn't be done.

So you also wouldn't reuse ARP hardware as well then huh??? Let me tell you why you can and can't reuse certain hardware. Back in the day the motor companies used a decent grade head, rod, and main bolt. Its torque spec was about 70-80% of its actual load capacity and thus didn't stretch or stretched very little. To cut corners and save a few cents motor companies are using lower grade hardware and they are what is called torque to yield. The torque specs are almost 90-95% of their load capacity and thus they stretch a good deal. Certain manufactures don't have a torque spec but instead a stretch spec i.e... (The Chevy LS1) This stretching is permanent and is ok as long as the vertical load isn't removed. Once removed the clamping force can not be re-applied without further stretching the bolt which will exceed the load capacity of the bolt in it's now weak-nd form...

So you can re-use ARP's since they are not being torqued to anywhere near their load capacity.. I can't spell great and I just got off a 12 hour shift so don't criticize my spelling.. The info is correct..

 

[BrokenTsi]

So you also wouldn't reuse ARP hardware as well then huh??? Let me tell you why you can and can't reuse certain hardware. Back in the day the motor companies used a decent grade head, rod, and main bolt. Its torque spec was about 70-80% of its actual load capacity and thus didn't stretch or stretched very little. To cut corners and save a few cents motor companies are using lower grade hardware and they are what is called torque to yield. The torque specs are almost 90-95% of their load capacity and thus they stretch a good deal. Certain manufactures don't have a torque spec but instead a stretch spec i.e... (The Chevy LS1) This stretching is permanent and is ok as long as the vertical load isn't removed. Once removed the clamping force can not be re-applied without further stretching the bolt which will exceed the load capacity of the bolt in it's now weak-nd form...

So you can re-use ARP's since they are not being torqued to anywhere near their load capacity.. I can't spell great and I just got off a 12 hour shift so don't criticize my spelling.. The info is correct..

Did I ever once say that you cant reuse ARP hardware? I said not to reuse head BOLTS. ARP's are not BOLTS, they are head STUDS. In fact, I use them, and reuse them as well. Thanks for the information, it is correct. But come on dude, read my post, did I say anything about not being able to reuse ARP's? Damn, sometimes people on this site just piss me off.

 

[anconover]

You really should NOT re-use stock head bolts on either 6 or 7 bolts. But 6bolts you can get away with it, 7 bolts you CANNOT REUSE. Because 7-bolt head bolts are torque to yield, once theyre torqued, u pop em out, theyre stretched and cant re-use them. At least, you def should not, im sure people have tho.

And i dont see where brokentsi mentioned anything about arp hardware, so theyres no need to jump down someones throat because you wanna show off the little knowledge you obsorbed on this board. You can re-use arp hardware, simple as that.

 

[Turbo442]

Are you guys saying that these motors come stock with head studs ? Anyway I just went ahead and ordered the washers. But now I went to screw all of the bolts down on the studs and one of them will only go a .25 of the way down without having to force it. All of the threads on the studs and the bolt look good though. I hope my mechanic can get it to work any of you guys had this problem ?

I just installed ARP head studs in my 1G a couple of weeks ago.

To answer your question, yes I did have the same problem you described. Some studs went all of the way down and some did not. I found that there was oil pooled in the bottom of the stud hole making it hydro lock. I figured this out when I went back like an hour later and the stud moved another 1/4 turn. I used a little vac pump and sucked the oil out of every stud hole and had no more problems.

Here are some suggestions I have after reading various sources:

If you are in a hurry to get the washers, call ARP and tell them you have no washers. They will probably send them to you for free. If you don’t want to wait, ask ARP for the washer specs and buy them at a specialty bolt and nut store.

Tighten the studs finger tight with the Allen wrench and make sure they all seat evenly. (You have no oil in the bottom of the hole.)

Grease the stud threads and washer with a light coat of the included black molly grease.

Use the tightening and un-tightening sequence from the Mitsubishi service manual. Do this in 25 foot pound steps until you reach your max desired torque. ARP states not to go over 81 foot pounds using molly grease. I used an EVO 3 head gasket and went to 75 foot pounds.

Once you reach your max torque loosen the studs in 25 ft pound increments using the Mitsubishi un-tightening sequence. ARP recommends making 2-3 tightening/loosening sequences. This procedure stretches the new studs a bit which helps keep your final torque settings consistent.

It would be wise to re-check the torque settings after you heat cycled the motor a few times. I would verify the torque settings with the engine at the same temperature they were originally set at (cold).

 

[Maglin]

You really should NOT re-use stock head bolts on either 6 or 7 bolts. But 6bolts you can get away with it, 7 bolts you CANNOT REUSE. Because 7-bolt head bolts are torque to yield, once theyre torqued, u pop em out, theyre stretched and cant re-use them. At least, you def should not, im sure people have tho.

And i dont see where brokentsi mentioned anything about arp hardware, so theyres no need to jump down someones throat because you wanna show off the little knowledge you obsorbed on this board. You can re-use arp hardware, simple as that.

I didn't jump down the throat... Might have came off that way and if so sorry... I'm very tired and it seemed to me that was what he was getting at..

Also I haven't learned all that much off this board. Their is more flaming than anything. Most knowlage is either by first hand and reading FSM's of various vehicles..
I have learned a great deal about Turbo's and their operation from pieces on this board and I do get a good laugh at times which brings me back time and again.. Again sorry.. I have to jump down throats all day at work and I guess I was still in that mode..

Peace Out..

Oh yeah and about the original intent of this thread. As stated above definitly get the correct grade washers (At least grade 8 if washers are graded like bolts are). The torqueing/loosening advise is well headed and a very good idea to do on new hardware. Just don't use your torque wrench to loosen.

 

[BrokenTsi]

its cool

also back on topic, washers are good. Use arp only. Dont go to some special nut store. More hassle then what its worth. Plus, i'm sure no body has done that.

 

[anconover]

get some from ARP, do get a perfect size may be a total pita, because theyre tight between some of the valve springs. And make sure u lube/place the washers in the head before dropping the head down, otherwise you wont be able to get some of those washers on because of the valve springs.

 

[Turbo442]

anconover,

I know what you are saying about 3-4 of the springs getting in the way of the washers. I was still able to push the springs over with a large flat blade screw driver to seat the washers. I would recomend trying that first.

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

anconover,

I know what you are saying about 3-4 of the springs getting in the way of the washers. I was still able to push the springs over with a large flat blade screw driver to seat the washers. I would recomend trying that first.

...did you guys see my previous post?

-I don't know how you were able to get #4 cylinder's (exhaust side) washer on, around the valve spring, and over the stud that was protruding up through the head, once seated on the block... That was why I ended up using the bench grinder, as it would't fit, no matter how much I cussed at it

Oh, and another thing... If you are using a 1st gen later model head with the larger 10mm Exh Man studs, you WILL NEED TO TRIM A LOT MORE (than what is shown in the VFAQ) of the forward motor mount in order to get the head to fully seat as the larger diameter studs will not clear the MM that is cut as discribed in the VFAQ... TEST FIT IT FIRST (without the copper gasket spray) to make sure it will clear!! Less, doing it over again as that copper gasket spray sets up fast!

 

[PieTSI]

Wow this is really tough. You put the washer on first, then bolt the head stud on.

 

[red91gst]

...did you guys see my previous post?

-I don't know how you were able to get #4 cylinder's (exhaust side) washer on, around the valve spring, and over the stud that was protruding up through the head, once seated on the block... That was why I ended up using the bench grinder, as it would't fit, no matter how much I cussed at it

Oh, and another thing... If you are using a 1st gen later model head with the larger 10mm Exh Man studs, you WILL NEED TO TRIM A LOT MORE (than what is shown in the VFAQ) of the forward motor mount in order to get the head to fully seat as the larger diameter studs will not clear the MM that is cut as discribed in the VFAQ... TEST FIT IT FIRST (without the copper gasket spray) to make sure it will clear!! Less, doing it over again as that copper gasket spray sets up fast!

Just remove the lower right hand side ex. stud and drop the head on, reinstall it after the head is bolted down. No cutting required.

As previously stated, just put the washers down in the seats on the head before you drop it on the motor.

Nate
SBR

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

Red,

I guess it's all a matter of it you are looking to bolt the head with or without the Exh Man attached. -I chose to install the manifolds (both intake and exhaust) on the head before removing or installing the head. Sure, it makes it a bit heavier, but IMO, it is the 'better' alternative as it provides a smoth surface that could easily held while R&R 'ing the head, and it's faster...
I've done all of my other head work in this same fasion, as it saves time with a head swap by doing the manifolds on the bench with sockets, extensions, air ratchet, and torque wrench. -No open end or box wrenches or swivel sockets to further complicate things when installing the stud & manifold to the head after the head after the head has been set. Also, (more importantly) it will take up more time... Working for a service center, you get paid on the amount of time that you 'take" on a job, compared to what the job 'pays' for.... It was the same way at the dealership.
Either way will work, but IMO, a few seconds with a cutt-off wheel & die grinder on the MM will take less time than installing the Exh Man after setting the head.

 

[Slowboy]

Red,

I guess it's all a matter of it you are looking to bolt the head with or without the Exh Man attached. -I chose to install the manifolds (both intake and exhaust) on the head before removing or installing the head. Sure, it makes it a bit heavier, but IMO, it is the 'better' alternative as it provides a smoth surface that could easily held while R&R 'ing the head, and it's faster...
I've done all of my other head work in this same fasion, as it saves time with a head swap by doing the manifolds on the bench with sockets, extensions, air ratchet, and torque wrench. -No open end or box wrenches or swivel sockets to further complicate things when installing the stud & manifold to the head after the head after the head has been set. Also, (more importantly) it will take up more time... Working for a service center, you get paid on the amount of time that you 'take" on a job, compared to what the job 'pays' for.... It was the same way at the dealership.
Either way will work, but IMO, a few seconds with a cutt-off wheel & die grinder on the MM will take less time than installing the Exh Man after setting the head.

Good point, but if it takes more than 15 min to pull the ex manifold off you should be doing it a different way. Plus, I hate grinding anything in the motor bay, especially with the head off. Everyone has their own way, and trust me I've worked in the shop on flat rate jobs before. Whatever works and is fastest for you use it, thats the way i look at it

Nate
SBR

 

[BoostedTalonTS]

Good point, but if it takes more than 15 min to pull the ex manifold off you should be doing it a different way. Plus, I hate grinding anything in the motor bay, especially with the head off. Everyone has their own way, and trust me I've worked in the shop on flat rate jobs before. Whatever works and is fastest for you use it, thats the way i look at it

Nate
SBR

Right On! -True, I hated that idea of grinding with the head off of the car, BUT... (ENTER: Some useful tricks I learned from the car audio/security days) -Everytime I was widening an inner door skin to accomodate a larger speaker and had to use my air saw, rather then get metal shavings all inside a door, I used an old speaker's manget (and in this case, an endless supply of shop rags, and my after market rare-earth magnets from my oil pan) to form a quick web of rags and high powered magnets to catch any debris from the use of the cut-off wheel.
Add to that that I used a 90* wheel that I cut into the MM, paralell with the cylinders. -In my experience with my last head swap, I found that the "hood" in the MM didn't interfere as much as the "hood's" lip that faced the P/S of the car. ~15 minutes with the manifold & busted knuckles, or 15 seconds with the die grinder, another 30 seconds with the rags and the magnets, and another 30 seconds with a compressed air powered vaccume.

-Either way -like you said, "..whatever works..." -I was just trying to point out some things I had to work around with using those ARPs for the first time.

Oh,

BadCamaro, be sure to pick up a solid 1/2" drive 12 point 1/2" socket (if you don't already have one) to torque down those ARPs... Someone told me that they were 14mm 12 point nuts on those ARPs. -They were wrong. OOPS! -Never mind that... I seen your profile, you are running a 6 bolt in your '93. -I dunno what size those 12mm ARP nuts are (the above was for 7 bolt 11mm ARP nuts).