FP Big T-28? Yes, No, Maybe? Why?

[98spyderboost]

I know ppl want to say just buy one, but i always rebuild everything pretty much to have a better understanding. Thats all there is to it. My question is what would it take to build a turbo like the FP Big-T28? I know it has a stocker housing. Does anyone know how to get a T-25(housing) to really perform? Is this "bad boah" capable of pushing 350 whp and 50shot N20, with supporting mods of course!

Before I get flamed for using a T-25. Simple. I am going for the super stocker look under the hood. Thats just my thang.

 

[pboglio]

If your question is what it would take to turn your T25 into a T28? It would take a 62 trim Garret compressor wheel, 360 degree thrust bearing, a 76 or 79 trim T28 exhaust wheel, a bunch of machining on both the compressor housing and the turbine housing, etc. etc. Forced performance knows how to get a T25 housing style turbo to perform, costs $599 to build yours into a full blown T28.

According to my recent DSMLINK logs, with 100 octane race gas and 35*F temps my little T28 pulled 349.9 w.h.p. @ 5800 rpm and 325 ft-lbs of torque peak on 22 psi of boost. I've got all the usual bolt on supporting mods. Mine is the older FPt28/28 with the more restrictive exhaust wheel. The FP Big28 is supposed to be good for another 20-30 h.p beyond my little T28. I've still got a couple bolt ons left so this thing ain't tapped out yet.

Gene B.

 

[espinelli]

According to my recent DSMLINK logs, with 100 octane race gas and 35*F temps my little T28 pulled 349.9 w.h.p. @ 5800 rpm and 325 ft-lbs of torque peak on 22 psi of boost. I've got all the usual bolt on supporting mods. Mine is the older FPt28/28 with the more restrictive exhaust wheel. The FP Big28 is supposed to be good for another 20-30 h.p beyond my little T28. I've still got a couple bolt ons left so this thing ain't tapped out yet.

Gene B.

350 WHEEL HP on a T28? I find that hard to believe. Don't get wrong, I think its a great sleeper turbo for a 2G but I just can't see that being possible. A T28 is rated @ 33-34lbs and the Big28 is around 36-37lbs. So I can't see either one of those turbos putting 350WHP to the ground. Dyno it, I'm sure your estimated ratings will be different.

 

[VKill]

I think he could do it with the right mods. I have a ported BigT28 with many mods but I still have stock 2g cams and I turn 13s with a heavy AWD Auto Trans Talon.

 

[pboglio]

Hmm,

Dennis Grant (www.farnorthracing.com) dynoed at 346 w.h.p. on a FP Big28, look on the website, full dyno graph and everything. I've read more than a few posts of guys with small 16g turbos in the 340-350 w.h.p., whats so hard to believe? It ain't rocket science, just keep throwing parts at the car, up the boost, lean it out, and add timing.

I don't need to go to a dyno, I've got a rolling dyno thanks to DSMlink. Lets see, about 2 months ago in 65*F temps my DSMlink showed a repeatable 319 w.h.p. That was with my boost dropping down to 17 psi past 6000 rpm. Now I'm running in 35*F weather which is another 30*F colder. I'm also holding another 2 psi higher than I was previously due to a few tricks. I'd say the 349 w.h.p. is accurate considering the cold weather. And I'm not even running a 3" exhaust system yet, probably another 12 w.h.p. with that in place. According to my in gear times, I'm pacing a 911 twin turbo to about 100 mph, not bad for a 16g sized turbo.

Just in case you weren't aware, Forced Performance trapped 119 mph on a full weight 2g with a FP Big28. My math shows around 440 h.p. to do that. The FPt28/t28 was rated at 35 lb/min accoring to FP's website back in 2001. Most compressor maps are rated at 14.7 psi, which is conservative. You can usually pull another 4-5 lb/min out of a compressor past its rated value.

 

[espinelli]

Well, not everyone is Dennis Grant. Secondly, that car looks like it spends most of its time on the track. Race car? The dyno pull your referring to was done in FWD after dropping the transfer case. The original poster is looking for 350WHP for his car which happens to be AWD.

You must be talking about Loren Jacobs busting into the high 11's with a Big28? Yeah I read as well and after I get done reading, I ask myself if it would be practical/realistic.

Do you have any idea what the mods on that car were when he pulled those #s? Your talking about spending somewhere in the neighborhood of at least 10K to get a Big28 setup to barely get into the 11's. Umm why?

Do it for half the cost and go faster on a EVOIII 16G or a 50 trim with supporting mods.

Yeah those guys made some nice numbers on a Big28 but 99.9% of us will not see those numbers on a Big28.

BTW I have DMSLink as well and saw the same numbers as you. There is a little setting in DSMLink that is called drivetrain loss. I suggest you adjust it, the numbers your getting is based off that setting. More importantly that is not a true dyno, you should take your car to a real DYNO and then adjust that drive train loss setting to reflect your real power.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Hmm,

Dennis Grant (www.farnorthracing.com) dynoed at 346 w.h.p. on a FP Big28, look on the website, full dyno graph and everything. I've read more than a few posts of guys with small 16g turbos in the 340-350 w.h.p., whats so hard to believe? It ain't rocket science, just keep throwing parts at the car, up the boost, lean it out, and add timing.

I don't need to go to a dyno, I've got a rolling dyno thanks to DSMlink. Lets see, about 2 months ago in 65*F temps my DSMlink showed a repeatable 319 w.h.p. That was with my boost dropping down to 17 psi past 6000 rpm. Now I'm running in 35*F weather which is another 30*F colder. I'm also holding another 2 psi higher than I was previously due to a few tricks. I'd say the 349 w.h.p. is accurate considering the cold weather. And I'm not even running a 3" exhaust system yet, probably another 12 w.h.p. with that in place. According to my in gear times, I'm pacing a 911 twin turbo to about 100 mph, not bad for a 16g sized turbo.

I don't think you can say that DSMLink is accurate at all with its horsepower graphs until you match it up with a regular dyno plot done with your car at the same time as the datalog.

Also, DSMLink has a scaling factor built in to simulate crank horsepower. It multiples the power by a certain percentage by default. You have to set the "drivetrain loss" to 0 in order to get wheel horsepower.

If you want to see how fast your car is, get to a 1/4mi track. If you want to see how much power your car makes, get to a dyno.

 

[pboglio]

Espinelli,

Take it easy buddy, I'm just stating facts. Dennis Grant's engine is pretty tame as far as modifications goes, mostly bolt ons. Hardly a RACE car as far as engine mods are concerned. Except for his standalone computer, his setup is very close to what most guys on the street would run.

I have the drivetrain loss at 0, weight at 3320 lbs. fully loaded, tire specs @ 215/55/17. With 0% loss I get 349.9 w.h.p., with a 15% drivetrain loss I actually peaked at 396 crank h.p and close to that over a 500 rpm band. My boost drops off past 6000 rpm and it shows in the dyno graph. The road surface was flat and level on this run. I know DSMlink is not a real dyno, what can you do when you don't have an AWD dyno near by. If you compare DSMLINK logs during a 1/4 mile run its shocking how close the measured h.p. is compared to the calculated horsepower from the 1/4 time and trap speed equations. I think its pretty accurate based on that. Most of the inaccuracy is from climbing a slight hill or going downhill.

Supporting mods are what makes a car with an EVOIII 16g or 50 trim go fast, or slow for that matter. Slapping a 50trim onto a car without all of the supporting mods and deep knowledge obtained from running a lot of parts combinations will NOT get you into the 11's.

You gotta remember that the EVOIII 16g wasn't available 4 years ago when the T28 came out, it was the best option at that time. The original poster insisted on using a T25 variant, I'd myself suggest and EVOIII 16g also considering his requirements.

 

[espinelli]

PBOLGIO,

Sorry pal, I get really emotional when talking about T28's making lots of power. Yes you are stating facts but those power goals are not very easy to achieve on a T28, or a BIG28.

I agree, you'll definitly need your standard bolt on's and supporting mods when running a EIII16G, 50 trim or whatever.

My point is that it would be easier and more cost effective to acheive those goals with a larger turbo. Nor do I believe he or anyone can just slap on a larger turbo without the proper supporting mods.

 

[DG-FNR]

Actually, making power with the Big28 was stupid simple.

- FP Big28
- Buschur Racing fuel pump (whatever the big green one is)
- Buschur Racing manual boost controller
- fuel pump rewire
- 3" open exhaust
- FMIC with some carefully optimised piping
- 550 cc injectors
- GEMS standalone in speed/density mode
- MSD DIS-2 ignition (installed because the GEMS ate the OEM IPTs)
- wideband Motec O2 sensor and an Autometer EGT guage (for tuning)

made 350 HP and nearly 380 lb/ft of torque.

90% of my time is spent in the suspension. As long as the motor is running, I'm happy. I typically don't go playing with the motor unless something is obviously wrong or I need a big HP jump to keep up with the Jones'.

Up until very recently (like about a month ago) I'd never even had the valve cover off. I've since had the timing belt changed and the balance shafts removed, water and oil pumps replaced - but that was all preventive maintainence.

Shit, I think I went 12.8 on the old-style FP T28/28 with just a boost controller, 550s, a Super AFC, and a fuel pump.

DG

Learn: http://autocross.dsm.org/books.html

 

[Generation X]

Actually, making power with the Big28 was stupid simple.

- FP Big28
- Buschur Racing fuel pump (whatever the big green one is)
- Buschur Racing manual boost controller
- fuel pump rewire
- 3" open exhaust
- FMIC with some carefully optimised piping
- 550 cc injectors
- GEMS standalone in speed/density mode
- MSD DIS-2 ignition (installed because the GEMS ate the OEM IPTs)
- wideband Motec O2 sensor and an Autometer EGT guage (for tuning)

made 350 HP and nearly 380 lb/ft of torque.

90% of my time is spent in the suspension. As long as the motor is running, I'm happy. I typically don't go playing with the motor unless something is obviously wrong or I need a big HP jump to keep up with the Jones'.

Up until very recently (like about a month ago) I'd never even had the valve cover off. I've since had the timing belt changed and the balance shafts removed, water and oil pumps replaced - but that was all preventive maintainence.

Shit, I think I went 12.8 on the old-style FP T28/28 with just a boost controller, 550s, a Super AFC, and a fuel pump.

DG

Learn: http://autocross.dsm.org/books.html

I agree, and I could only imagine what you would have pulled off with a set of HKS 264/272 cams, 1g tb, 1g intake manifold, and last but not least the higher flowing 1g head. Most of the fastest times over at dsmtimes.org on the evo 16g, or B16g, and the small 16g, if you look closely are all on 1g's, with the exception of a few 2g's who are running 6 bolts with the 1g tb, intake manifold, and 1g head.

 

[fastaseagle]

I put down 287 to the whells on 18lbs falling to 15 on my t28 with 550s, fuel pump exhaust boostcontroller basically.... 16gs are overated...

 

[T2Small]

I never dynoed my car with the Big28 bolted on, but it was good enough for my full weight (~3450 lbs) 2G to run 12.78 @ 107 MPH. Stock block, intake manifold and cams with a Supra SMIC. The boost was set to about 25 PSI, but I would see considerably less by redline.

 

[pboglio]

Yeah, the Big28 is one badass little turbo. I believe "Espinelli" is laying down a peak of 370 ft-lbs at the wheels (via DSMLINK) at 22 psi according to his datalog, although on a stroked motor.

 

[ShapeGSX]

I put down 287 to the whells on 18lbs falling to 15 on my t28 with 550s, fuel pump exhaust boostcontroller basically.... 16gs are overated...

Thats uhh...underwhelming? 16Gs are overrated because your car put down under 300hp?

Why was your boost falling? Because the turbo couldn't keep up. You will always be limited by that.

My Evo III 16G, on the other hand, can hold 25psi to redline. And that is with a cam upgrade, which causes boost to fall more due to increased demand.

 

[pboglio]

25 psi on a T28 is not a good boost level in my experience, that is total compressor overspeed when your flowing 35-37 lb/min, based on the map. With the cams, my car likes 22-23 psi, 24 psi makes my spark blow out for some damned reason.

 

[DG-FNR]

25 psi on a T28 is not a good boost level in my experience, that is total compressor overspeed when your flowing 35-37 lb/min, based on the map. With the cams, my car likes 22-23 psi, 24 psi makes my spark blow out for some damned reason.

Check your plug gap.

DG

 

[Generation X]

Check your plug gap.

DG

Agreed! I use to have the same problem as well, and of course it was due to plug gap.

 

[spoolup]

I agree that the T28 is a great turbo, I ran 12.83 @110 in a FWD at 4200ft elevation, stock engine, cams, TB, even 100% stock suspension. True it would be easier to do in a 50 trim or what not, but you should also have to have some basic supporting mods. I have seen multiple T28s bolted on to other wise completly stock cars, airbox and all. So it really depends on your set up, mild upgrades, then maybe the T28 is right with you. now if you have alot of stuff done (stage 1 and most of 2 on the upgrades page of this site), then maybe a 50 or 60 trim would be better. But then there is a bigger cost difference as well. So it really depends on the person.

Nothing like pulling away from a Saleen S281 only to have the guy call you a liar when you say your turbo can barly be seen under the manifold. Only to pop the hood and make him wonder how.

 

[Generation X]

I agree that the T28 is a great turbo, I ran 12.83 @110 in a FWD at 4200ft elevation, stock engine, cams, TB, even 100% stock suspension. True it would be easier to do in a 50 trim or what not, but you should also have to have some basic supporting mods. I have seen multiple T28s bolted on to other wise completly stock cars, airbox and all. So it really depends on your set up, mild upgrades, then maybe the T28 is right with you. now if you have alot of stuff done (stage 1 and most of 2 on the upgrades page of this site), then maybe a 50 or 60 trim would be better. But then there is a bigger cost difference as well. So it really depends on the person.

Nothing like pulling away from a Saleen S281 only to have the guy call you a liar when you say your turbo can barly be seen under the manifold. Only to pop the hood and make him wonder how.

That is definitely a sweet time at that elevation How much boost were you running on that run?

 

[rdrkt]

I went through the same dilema when the T25 on my mom's 97 died.

Keep in mind right now no one is doing a T28 upgrade. There is a big back order on some piece needed for that swap. So you would be looking at buying a new Big28.

From a price perspective a sm16g with install kit that includes Dejon upgraded lower ic pipe and J pipe from DSMotorsport is only about 30 bucks more than FP is charging for a Big28. If you spend 70 bucks more you can upgrade that to a E316g and make a lot more power. To me that makes more sense. But do the research and come to your own conclusion.

 

[spoolup]

That is definitely a sweet time at that elevation How much boost were you running on that run?

Pretty much about all she could do up here, about 24 PSI then watching it drop about as fast as the RPMs increase. Too bad for thin air.

The 16g style turbos are also a good option, but you have to remeber the Jpipe/LICP piece, oir return line differences, oil supply line difference, you can modify the water line per RRE and VFAQ. Still a nice proven setup there as well.

As for modifing a T25 to a T28, the entire centercartridge is the problem that they make or rebuild. My EGT probe dropped thru the turbo in under 2000 miles. Sent it to FP, lucky there was a guy there who had a compressor housing cracked by shipping, so they nice guys they were swapped his CC to my housings for a dam good price. been running strong ever since. 18 months boosting around 20 PSI on the street. keeping the timing to 16* via DSMlink. Still pulls like a mofo. Drop in some race gas ocassionally on the weekends, lean it out, add few degrees of timing (2-3) and I am dead even with a friend who has a 57 trim, full 272s, SMIC, 720's, dsmlink, and pump gas, same boost level. So yes, the T28 is a sweet setup for what you "see".

 

[Generation X]

Pretty much about all she could do up here, about 24 PSI then watching it drop about as fast as the RPMs increase. Too bad for thin air.

The 16g style turbos are also a good option, but you have to remeber the Jpipe/LICP piece, oir return line differences, oil supply line difference, you can modify the water line per RRE and VFAQ. Still a nice proven setup there as well.

As for modifing a T25 to a T28, the entire centercartridge is the problem that they make or rebuild. My EGT probe dropped thru the turbo in under 2000 miles. Sent it to FP, lucky there was a guy there who had a compressor housing cracked by shipping, so they nice guys they were swapped his CC to my housings for a dam good price. been running strong ever since. 18 months boosting around 20 PSI on the street. keeping the timing to 16* via DSMlink. Still pulls like a mofo. Drop in some race gas ocassionally on the weekends, lean it out, add few degrees of timing (2-3) and I am dead even with a friend who has a 57 trim, full 272s, SMIC, 720's, dsmlink, and pump gas, same boost level. So yes, the T28 is a sweet setup for what you "see".

Cool... thanks for the info

 

[truwarrior]

I put down 287 to the whells on 18lbs falling to 15 on my t28 with 550s, fuel pump exhaust boostcontroller basically.... 16gs are overated...

Maybe, maybe not, but I rather buy another 16G then a T28 if my turbo blew out If I was AWD I'd probably go with a T28 but since I'm FWD the EVO16G rox! Boost creep is like a traction control. Set it at 16psi and it'll find 20 psi way before redline still

 

[fastaseagle]

I put down 287 to the whells on 18lbs falling to 15 on my t28 with 550s, fuel pump exhaust boostcontroller basically.... 16gs are overated...

my point is everybody is saying that a t28 isnt as good as a 16g when in fact the intake side of a t28 is larger, but the exhaust side is smaller if you port the t28 than you are bigger than a big 16g.. not to mention those pulls were on pump gas and at 15lbs i could turbn the boost up more but I didnt want to. I dont even have the big t28 i have the original 6cm housing that i ported to hell bassically a little bigger than the big t28. 16g are great turbo's i used to have 1 on my awd 1g... im probably making about 320-330 to the wheels right know with my setup..with pump gas and17lbs i went a 13.0 with the t28 and a stupid catylitic converter on the car with race gas and unbolt the downpipe, boost a 23lbs i would probably run 12.4-12.6 range which isnt really bad for a fwd. my 16g statment wasnt to affend anybody I was just joking..