BOLT on a wastegate on the exhaust manifold?

[edmundturner]

Hi, ive been going thru the archives and read tons of threads on BOOST CREEPS and SPIKES. Unfortunately im a victim of boost creep due to my full 3inch exhaust.
I have upgraded to a nice 20G TD06H and experienced even worse creeps!. (25psi at 5K)

I have done alot of porting work on the 02 and turbine housing and the creep was decreased but it still remains there. (20psi at 5K)
I have decided to opt for an exteranally gated wastegate.
I have sourced a 35mm Turbonetics evolution wastegate, but my question is where should i put it? I have a friend who slapped it on his turbo manifold and swears by it. He welded the wastegate pipe smakc in the middle of the 4 bolts on the turbo housing.

I have also heard alot of bad comments on this, as this supposedly hurts the flow to the turbo.

I have also been adviced to port the hell outta my turbine and 02 housing and use an 02 eliminator setup.


im looking for advice on the best place to put the external wastegate.
your comments and advice is appreciated!

Stock 6 bolt, 2G cams, 20G TD06, 560cc,255lphr fuel pump, etc..

edmund

 

[anconover]

ive personally always been a fan of o2 mounted wastegates, but you could always opt to have a flange welded on the #1 runner of the exhaust manifold. Make sure you find someone who has welded cast iron before if possible, as its not fun, must usually be pre-heated etc to be done CORRECTLY.

 

[danielbui]

having an extension welded on to your exhaust manifold will not kill you in horsepower like a intercooler pipe popping off at high boost. if anything the torque difference is not noticeable. just make sure the extension is as short as possible but long enough to work around. make it too long there will be an issue. also after it is welded make sure there are no pin holes in the welds.

 

[1fast97gsx]

just flange your number 1 runner on the mani...

 

[NyQuiL07]

just flange your number 1 runner on the mani...

anyone had negative results doing this?

sorry to hijack but its related as well. Im running a t3/t4 setup and planning on using the adaptor plate, but need to figure out weather to have the wastegate on the mani or o2 housing as well. Any places actually sell premade o2 housings flanged for a tial or other wastegate?

 

[danielbui]

www.extrememotorsports.com has one for mitsu turbos call them they might have one for yours.

 

[JamiesTSI]

I personally like to have my externall coming of the collector of ALL four runners. I'm not a big fan of the Turbonetics T3 manifold that takes the external off of number 1. Don't like the idea of messing with only one exhaust stream. Dump to atmosphere, might be a little loud, but you never want to mix your exhaust gases. Creates turbulance which transfers into back pressure.

 

[1fast97gsx]

whats the problem with taking it off only 1 runner??

I didn't have any problems with it.

 

[edmundturner]

Okay, so it appears there shouldnt be any problem mounting the external wastegate of the 1st runner OR the middle of the turbo manifold. Thanks!

The guy at the exhaust shop has recomended to plump the external Wastegate at then end off my 02 dump pipe (vents to the air). He made a custom 2.5inch stainless steel 02 dump pipe with a separate wastegate dump pipe. This dump pipe is about almost a foot long and ends slighlyt below the alternator. Ive seen pictures of the 02 eliminator and that is pretty short in comparison.
Do you guys think that the length of the dump pipe which the external wastegate will be welded on will make a difference

I will try to get some pics up shortly.
thanks for the comments!

edmund

 

[danielbui]

at the end of your dumptube? i would have him reconsider that. dumptubes are kinda long and for you to just weld it on is not really the answer. you must port you wastgate port before doing anything like that. i would recommend doing it directly on the o2 housing first before attaching at the bottem of o2 dump tube. and if you do do that boost creep will surely be a factor.

 

[anconover]

ive seen people sort of do somethign similar because of crowded engine bay/setups.

If you already have an o2 dump, cut the dump tube off, cut out a little stubby peice, weld it to the o2 flange, and then weld on the flange, thats what i did. Port open the wg hole nicely too.

 

[danielbui]

i completely agree with you but they can always buy a cheap relocator kit and solve all there blah blah problems.

 

[DSMJim]

I personally like to have my externall coming of the collector of ALL four runners. I'm not a big fan of the Turbonetics T3 manifold that takes the external off of number 1. Don't like the idea of messing with only one exhaust stream. Dump to atmosphere, might be a little loud, but you never want to mix your exhaust gases. Creates turbulance which transfers into back pressure.

It does not matter if the wastegate comes from one runner or from the collector on a manifold for any car under 6-700whp. The only reason people "don't like it" is because they read way to many internet forums where other guys who don't know what they are talking about don't like it either.

The wastegate off one runner is perfectly fine, hell guys have made 600whp on the turbonetics manifold and it's off one runner. Think about it like this. If you take a garden hose and poke a hole half way though it what happens? Does the first part of the hose lose pressure the last part or the whole thing? The whole hose loses pressure. This is exactly the same as a turbo manifold. When the wastegate opens off one runner it's not like only exhaust from that one runner excapes and its a problem. Inside the manifold there are pulse waves of pressure. As soon as the wastegate opens there is a huge releif in pressure across the entire manifold therefore controlling the pressure entering the turbocharger keeping it spinning at a particular RPM (or boost level). The wastegate off the collector is no more effective at controlling this than off one runner.

I have personally tested manifolds we made with the wastegate off the collector vs off one runner and no more or less HP is made and boost is no more easily controlled with either method. In the end we had to make our manifold have the wastegate off the collector because people demanded it because they "KNEW" it was better that way. So instead of trying to educate people we just sold them what they wanted and gave up honestly.

Its the same with doing an O2 mounted wastegate that doesn't seem like the most ideal place for it either because it must take a 90 deg turn out the housing but it also works because it's relieving pressure from the housing keeping the wheel at a particular RPM.

As for dumping the wastegate back into the exhaust, it is slightly more beneficial to dump to the atmosphere for performance however that is very slight and putting it back into the exhaust is not a problem. As long as you cut the tube into the down pipe on a descent angle where it merges in with the rest of the exhaust nicely then there is no turbulance and no extra backpressure. If you were to dump it in at a 90 deg angle to the other exhaust flow then yes that could slightly be a problem but it would still work.

 

[JamiesTSI]

I guess maybe you should tell Corkey Bell he's wrong then. When he says Quote" The bleed off MUST vent from a location where the pulses from ALL cylinders have been collected.

Taken from Maximum Boost.

Damn I wish I wouldn't have spent the money on that book, Corkey lied to me.

 

[edmundturner]

Hey guys, loads of thanks for your advice.
Im going to port the hell outta WG port. Since i already have a 02 dump tube, ill probably cut it to a little stub and weld the Ext WG on it. If that mutha creeps or spikes, i will then consider slapping in on either smack in the middle of the turbo manifold or the 1st runner.

cheers!

edmund

 

[DSMJim]

I guess maybe you should tell Corkey Bell he's wrong then. When he says Quote" The bleed off MUST vent from a location where the pulses from ALL cylinders have been collected.

Taken from Maximum Boost.

Damn I wish I wouldn't have spent the money on that book, Corkey lied to me.

Read books all you like, but try going to the dyno and testing some of your thoery out once in a while. I have built two identical manifolds one with the wastegate from the collector the other from one runner. Both on a 450whp miata. Guess what? They both acted exactly the same, the boost was controlled exactly the same way, spool up was the same power production was the same. Is Corkey Bell wrong? No he is right that it should come from one source where all pulses meet. Does it effect power? Depends. On 99% of the cars out there no. When you exceed 600whp give me a call, I'll build you a free manifd that has the wastegate from the collector, because now it matters.

I don't care what math and science you wanna throw behind it, the dyno doesn't lie. At the dyno where it REALLY matters it didn't make any difference. I run the turbonetics manifold and can control my boost from 10psi (wastegate spring) with no creep at all upto 25psi with no change in boost level at all. Would my car make more power by taking the wastegate from the collector? Not a chance. The simple function of a wastegate is to control boost by bleeding off pressure, as long as it's doing that job then you have taken it from the correct place.

You see where I'm coming from?

 

[1fast97gsx]

dsmjim is right. Just flange your number 1 runner and shut up!

 

[JamiesTSI]

Why is it always a pissin match with you wiseman? The guy asked for ADVICE ON THE BEST PLACE FOR THE WASTE GATE. I told him. Then I catch flack from you wiseman. What I said is the truth and it is the best place for an external end of story.

I got into a pissin match with another wiseman about a month ago, on how I built my oil cooler. This is coming from a wiseman that likes to mix metric and standard threads. I think not! My oil cooler works absolutly positivly wonderfully great. My oil and water temps are now about equal. You wiseman need to really come down from your high horse. Let the flaming begin.

 

[-red97rum-]

Why is it always a pissin match with you wiseman? The guy asked for ADVICE ON THE BEST PLACE FOR THE WASTE GATE. I told him. Then I catch flack from you wiseman. What I said is the truth and it is the best place for an external end of story.

I got into a pissin match with another wiseman about a month ago, on how I built my oil cooler. This is coming from a wiseman that likes to mix metric and standard threads. I think not! My oil cooler works absolutly positivly wonderfully great. My oil and water temps are now about equal. You wiseman need to really come down from your high horse. Let the flaming begin.

You're the only one I see trying to start a "pissing match" DSMJim did nothing more than offer his advice based upon REAL WORLD examples. Then you come out swinging from Corky's nuts. I normally wouldn't even reply to a post like yours but I have a lot of respect for Jim and his contributions to the community.

Take care,

-Dustin

 

[DSMJim]

Why is it always a pissin match with you wiseman? The guy asked for ADVICE ON THE BEST PLACE FOR THE WASTE GATE. I told him. Then I catch flack from you wiseman. What I said is the truth and it is the best place for an external end of story.

Your saying the best place based on what you read. I'm saying it doesn't matter based on dyno proof and my own cars proof. What you said was correct and I even said so, so you might wanna relax, the difference is that I have tested it and found no difference. Basically the jist of what I said was that he can do it however is easier for him and he will still get the results he is looking for.

WHat your doing is continuing to spread a mantality that there is only one way to skin a cat. You can put it off one runner and make just as much HP and that is proven. It's just as efficient etc etc etc.. Will it work on a 600+ HP car? No it won't but none of us are there now are we?

I got into a pissin match with another wiseman about a month ago, on how I built my oil cooler. This is coming from a wiseman that likes to mix metric and standard threads. I think not! My oil cooler works absolutly positivly wonderfully great. My oil and water temps are now about equal. You wiseman need to really come down from your high horse. Let the flaming begin.

Where do I mix metric and standard threads? I have no idea what the hell your talking about and neither does anybody else. Nobody is on a high horse, you however are getting on my nerves. I was participating in a thread which I have DIRECT experience in so relax dude.