Front Mount on 14b?

[talongod]

I ordered a SAAB front mount intercooler --
Sizing Information:
Core Size: 22 X 6.5 X 2
Overall Length: 33
Height, max, at Outlet: 8
Aluminum Core
Is this good for a t-25 or 14b turbo because i heard discussion about putting a front mount intercooler on a stock turbo what would happen with this size intercooler on a 14b?

 

[91gst]

If you are going to use the t-25 im sure most people will say that you dont need the FMIC. If you use the 14b I think that it will work out well. Youll be able to run more boost and I dont think there will be any negative effects. I have 24x7.9x3.5" core on my car right now and I still have my 14b and it runs great. Itll pull hard all day if I need it too. I say do it. You may also want to consider upgrading the fuel system if you put the FMIC on and up the boost just to be safe. Hope this helps.

 

[DevilSperm]

Ive heard it can cause a little extra lag but i dont think it would be too noticeable....i plan on getting a front mount for my 14b as well

 

[phatTSi]

A friend of mine has a big 16g and an AMS frontmount and he doesn't get full spool until about 4000 rpm. Another friend of mine has and i denticle turbo minus the frontmount and he gets full boost about 500 rpm sooner. On a 14b a frontmount isn't needed. There are more things you could spend the money on i.e. fuel mods, hard pipe, and an exhaust.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

i'd have to disagree. any intercooler is better than stock. IMO with a 14b that is tuned for higher boost the FMIC will be more beneficial than using stock.

 

[TurBoGs-T]

One of my locals uses a supra SMIC and he goes 12 lows with his 14b. I think a bigger SMIC will be good enough.

 

[kpt4321]

A FMIC is a good mod, no matter what turbo you have.

I have very high charge temps with my 14b, and as such I need to tune very conservatively to keep it from knocking. With a FMIC, I would definately pick up power.

I plan on installing one pretty soon.

 

[95TalonTuner]

A FMIC is a good mod, no matter what turbo you have.

my god, who made you a wiseman.

 

[TurBoGs-T]

my god, who made you a wiseman.

Easy now..

 

[talongod]

Thanx 4 the input guys i will also be upgrading my fuel pump and injectors

 

[TimG]

my god, who made you a wiseman.

Blah blah. Shut up. He is a wiseman for a reason.

I ran a huge, free flowing core on my 14b for a year. The results were no knock, crazy high boosts (for a 14b) and instant boost pressure when needed. Any FMIC is beneficial but for a 14b, if you want a quicker spool, go with a smaller core. Easy as pie.

If you plan on upgrading the turbo, look at your goals and then caibrate the FMIC you need now. It will always be somewhat benefical.

 

[DevilSperm]

A FMIC is a good mod, no matter what turbo you have.

I have very high charge temps with my 14b, and as such I need to tune very conservatively to keep it from knocking. With a FMIC, I would definately pick up power.

I plan on installing one pretty soon.

same here..i heat soak around 11psi (shitty sidemount) so thats why im getting one sometime soon.. 95TalonTuner were you joking or being an ass?

 

[kpt4321]

my god, who made you a wiseman.

Hey ####mook...

Would you like to debate the effects of increased interocooler efficiency? Or, would you like to discuss intercooler theory in general? Or, perhaps you would like to give me one single fact to back up the comment you just made.

If you want to get completely owned, reply here, or you can even PM me to save your fate from everyone else's eyes.

Otherwise, I would accept an apology.

 

[el aguila]

Hey ####mook...

Would you like to debate the effects of increased interocooler efficiency? Or, would you like to discuss intercooler theory in general? Or, perhaps you would like to give me one single fact to back up the comment you just made.

If you want to get completely owned, reply here, or you can even PM me to save your fate from everyone else's eyes.

Otherwise, I would accept an apology.

Please own him. I love reading your posts and then having to go on to Google just to find out what the hell you were talking about

 

[EclipseOwner95]

a FMIC is deffinatly a worth while mod on almost any turbo as he said, im on a 14b, and i cant even make it down the 1/4 mile without it being heat soaked, i ran 100octane leaded gas and 20psi and i still got knock at the top of 3rd and the middle of 4th before i got done with the 1320.

 

[KeltonDSMer]

That looks like a great core for a 14B; it has a very large surface area right where air flows so it will battle heat soak well, yet the actuall volume isn't very large because it is only 2" thick so spool shouldn't be affected too much.

 

[talongod]

wow thanx alot guys

 

[NewB2dsm]

A friend of mine has a big 16g and an AMS frontmount and he doesn't get full spool until about 4000 rpm. Another friend of mine has and i denticle turbo minus the frontmount and he gets full boost about 500 rpm sooner. On a 14b a frontmount isn't needed. There are more things you could spend the money on i.e. fuel mods, hard pipe, and an exhaust.

then your freinds cars are ####ed up.

Small 16g ported. Bar and plate core 24x10x3 with full 2.5" IC piping i get full boost at ~3300 which is 20psi.

get the fmic

 

[gsx91boy]

Hey ####mook...

Would you like to debate the effects of increased interocooler efficiency? Or, would you like to discuss intercooler theory in general? Or, perhaps you would like to give me one single fact to back up the comment you just made.

If you want to get completely owned, reply here, or you can even PM me to save your fate from everyone else's eyes.

Otherwise, I would accept an apology.

Look moron, you wanna discuss efficiency, tell me about turbo efficiency. When you try to ask too much of a 14b, no FMIC is going to help.

FACT: If you try to push your 14b too high of psi, your hp levels will GO DOWN.

FACT: There have been 12.0, 12.5, 12.5, 1/4 mile runs on 14b and 100% stock intercooler pipes.

FACT: Scott Hidley runs 20psi daily to the tune of 12.8@104 on 94 octane on 14b.

FACT: You can run 18psi on 14b, no knock on 94 octane all day long. If YOU can't, it could be for any number of reasons. If the knock goes away with a FMIC, it doesn't meant that it couldn't have been eliminated with various other options.

It's great if you put a FMIC on a 14b car because you plan to move to something other then a 14b one day. A MKIV SMIC will actually be plenty to rid your car of heat soak for much less.

The biggest gripe with a 1g SMIC is heat soak, which doesn't matter in the course of a 1/4 mile run, but for back to back to runs. There are other ways to deal with this that are far more cost efficient then a FMIC.

You can max out a 14b on stock smic and piping with race gas. Majority of gains of a FMIC over 1g SMIC would be felt daily on pump gas. Race gas has enough knock suppresion to overboost a 14b.

-aaron

 

[EclipseOwner95]

The biggest gripe with a 1g SMIC is heat soak, which doesn't matter in the course of a 1/4 mile run, but for back to back to runs. There are other ways to deal with this that are far more cost efficient then a FMIC.

-aaron

Wow..I deffinatly heat soak my intercooler before im done with the 1/4, top of 3rd its beyond dead and 4th gear it just starts getting ugly....

 

[gsx91boy]

Wow..I deffinatly heat soak my intercooler before im done with the 1/4, top of 3rd its beyond dead and 4th gear it just starts getting ugly....

And you're basing this off what? Knock in higher gears instead of earlier gears from a lean condition due to more airflow in the higher gears?

-aaron

 

[coltboostin]

we put our 8inch core on a customer car with a 14b. Holy crap does it pull, it is kind of rediculous. The car pulled on my friends 13.1@109mph WRX on a 2nd gear pull, and the customer car was only at 10psi?!

 

[gsx91boy]

Oh, btw, Kevin Jewer, kpt knows him , failed to get significant gain out of a mkiv smic on race gas.

Certain FMIC's are better then a mkiv smic, but regardless, it proves that heat soak and 1g smic are not much of an issue when running a 1/4 e.t. on race gas on 14b.

Deal with it.

-aaron

 

[NewB2dsm]

The biggest gripe with a 1g SMIC is heat soak, which doesn't matter in the course of a 1/4 mile run, but for back to back to runs. There are other ways to deal with this that are far more cost efficient then a FMIC.


-aaron

umm i heat soaked my supra sidemount during every pass at the 1/4 on a 16g at 20psi and pump gas. How do i know? well i went 8.23@83mph in the 1/8 and netted a 13.0@100mph best i could barley break 100mph. FMIC every run was 100+ easy. And now i added a 1g throttle body 107mph is my best on pump. So Heat soaking a stock IC is pretty easy man expecially at higher boost.

 

[kpt4321]

Look moron, you wanna discuss efficiency, tell me about turbo efficiency. When you try to ask too much of a 14b, no FMIC is going to help.

You're ####ing going down.

Want to talk about compressor efficiency? Fine.

Let's start with some base numbers. At 400 CFM of airflow (close to, but not quite, the limit for a 14b), and a PR of 2.5 (which is 19 psi of manifold pressure assuming 1.5 psi of pressure drop through the intercooler, and about 1 psi of pressure drop before the compressor inlet (14.0 psi inlet pressure, absolute), a 14b is about 70% efficient. What does that mean? Well, first of all, it means that the compressor outlet temperatures are going to be in the 290*F range, assuming intake temps at 70 degrees farenheight. Running a couple more numbers assuming mild cams (like HSK 264's) brings us to about 27 lb/min of airflow at 7000 rpm.

Let's see what happens when we throw an intercooler in the mix. First, we'll use the stock SMIC *before* it starts to heat soak, and we'll use an efficiency of about 70%. That will bring the temperatures at the throttle body down to 140*F, which brings the total airflow up to 34 lb/min. Now, as you should know, 34 lb/min is more than the 14b can handle, which means that you're probably going to be making the most power possible here.

What happens when the stock SMIC starts to heat soak?

The charge temp rises to over 180*F!!! This will equate to about 7% more mass airflow, which is around 20 horsepower lost at the airflow levels we are discussing. JUST FROM THE LOSS IN AIR DENSITY. The subsequent loss in power from the richer A/F ratio and less agressive timing needed to cope with this rising intake temp will bring that power loss into the 30 hp OR MORE region.

What happens when we throw a decent FMIC on there? Well, you will see more like 75% intercooler efficiency, but with less pressure drop, and with no heat soak.

Right off the bat, you gain a couple horsepower due to the lesser pressure drop through the intercooler's core. In addition, the 5% extra intercooler efficiency will gain you 2% more air density, over the case of the fully efficient SMIC, and about 9% mre air density over the stock SMIC when it's heat soaked.

Hmm. 30 horsepower seems like a lot to me, especially at 300 horsepower.

Not to mention the temperature difference. 180*F with a heat soaked SMIC, and about 125*F with a FMIC. I personally have seen charge temps a little bit higher than that, in the 190*F region, on pump gas, on the 14b. Do you want to talk about how much charge temps close to 200*F will #### up your tuning? The loss of power from the lesser air density is only half the problem here too, you'll end up losing a bunch more power because of tuning differences.

FACT: If you try to push your 14b too high of psi, your hp levels will GO DOWN.

This is true, especially on pump gas, and ESPECIALLY with an inefficient SMIC.

However, I don't know what this has to do with the arguement. Yes, you can max out the 14b. What does that have to do with FMIC's?

FACT: There have been 12.0, 12.5, 12.5, 1/4 mile runs on 14b and 100% stock intercooler pipes.

Definately. My car went 12.8 @ 108, with not only the stock SMIC, but the stock injectors and no fuel control too.

However, those cars are all running race gas, and that makes intercooling almost inconsequential. The power gained from the denser charge air is a moot point when you can run well over 20 psi on race gas, meaning that you're going to max out the flow capacity of the 14b regardless of what kind of charge temps you are seeing.

Let's not even bring up race gas, that's not the discussion at hand. If we're talking about all-around performance, on a lighter modded car, we are concerned equally, if not moreso, with pump gas performance.

FACT: Scott Hidley runs 20psi daily to the tune of 12.8@104 on 94 octane on 14b.

Good for him!

I ran 102 mph at 16 psi on the 14b with stock injectors. I am sure the car is faster this year, with the bigger injectors, etc. However, I'm still buying a FMIC.

Once again, that doesn't prove any kind of a point. Are you going to try to tell me that since someone has done something, it's the best way to go?

Buschur ran 7's on a 2 speed powerglide transmission, does that make it a good idea for your street car?

Not only that, but just because something works for him does not mean it is optimal.

FACT: You can run 18psi on 14b, no knock on 94 octane all day long. If YOU can't, it could be for any number of reasons. If the knock goes away with a FMIC, it doesn't meant that it couldn't have been eliminated with various other options.

This is very true, becaue I run 17-18 psi on a 14b and SMIC with no knock all the time. Want to know something even more interesting? I used to run 19-20 psi, also with no knock. Guess what happened when I turned the boost down to 17 psi and retuned? The car got faster.

Why is this, you may be asking? Tuning is just a big compromise. In order to extract the maximum power from a vehicle, you need to find the best set of parameters for the system. You will never optimize timing, fuel, and boost, and ESPECIALLY not on a 14b and SMIC equipped car.

Because of the high charge temperatures associated with the stock SMIC, I am forced to run an A/F ratio that is not very close to optimal, and I am also forced to run conservative timing advance. If the charge temperatures would come down, I would be able to advance the timing some more, and lean out the mixture. What does that mean? More power. As such, I have just proved that a FMIC will increase the output of my vehicle.

The biggest gripe with a 1g SMIC is heat soak, which doesn't matter in the course of a 1/4 mile run, but for back to back to runs. There are other ways to deal with this that are far more cost efficient then a FMIC.

Bull. The SMIC will heat soak in a single third gear pull, just not fully. From a stop to fourth gear, you're damned right it will heat soak.

Don't believe me? Get a charge temperature gauge. Watch it when you hit full boost. If your boost level is constant, the charge temperautre should remain a flat line if the intercooler is not heat soaking. Can you guess what this line looks like on a SMIC car? I'll give you a hint, it's not flat.

You can max out a 14b on stock smic and piping with race gas. Majority of gains of a FMIC over 1g SMIC would be felt daily on pump gas. Race gas has enough knock suppresion to overboost a 14b.

Wait, WTF? Did you just admit that a FMIC would gain you power over a SMIC? What the ####? Why are you arguing with me, when that is exactly what I said above?

You're retarted.