EVO III 16G Turbo on a 1991 Eagle Talon

[BoostedZ24]

Alright, I am hoping you guys can help. I bought a 16G EVO III turbo from TurboGarage. My car is a 1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD, automatic (with ac etc.) When I took the car to the shop and had them remove my stock oem turbo, they begin to install the EVO III, but had to stop due to the coolent lines and oil lines being a different size. After contacting TurboGarage they told me I need the 5spd lines (I guess the auto\5spd were made differently, dumb!) Does anyone have any info on this, have any spare parts laying around or can help me? Kinda need a car to drive.. soo this isn't helping. I orginaly bought the EVO III being I thought it was a direct bolt up. Thanks for your time!


Timothy Kramer

 

[boostedinaz]

Originally posted by BoostedZ24
Alright, I am hoping you guys can help. I bought a 16G EVO III turbo from TurboGarage. My car is a 1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD, automatic (with ac etc.) When I took the car to the shop and had them remove my stock oem turbo, they begin to install the EVO III, but had to stop due to the coolent lines and oil lines being a different size. After contacting TurboGarage they told me I need the 5spd lines (I guess the auto\5spd were made differently, dumb!) Does anyone have any info on this, have any spare parts laying around or can help me? Kinda need a car to drive.. soo this isn't helping. I orginaly bought the EVO III being I thought it was a direct bolt up. Thanks for your time!


Timothy Kramer

i am guessing that the lines are different becasue the 1g auto's came with a different turbo that the 1G manuals. If you can find the lines from a 14B turbo then you will fine. Thats the stock 1G manual car turbo. i would look in the classified ads on this site or on www.dsmtrader.com

Hope that helps, i have never heard of this but I have also never know anyone with an auto 1G.

Michael

 

[BoostedZ24]

Alright, to add more bad news, my exhaust manifold has a fairly large crack, leading me to assume I'd be better off to just get the evo III manifold from turbogarage and not bother with trying to weld it being its kinda to small for the turbo anyways. =(

 

[Kinetic Boost]

Yeah you would probably be better off replacing the exhuat manifold with a EVO III or a 2g. Another thing you may want to take into account is that because your auto your injectors are smaller than the 5speeds. You have 390cc injectors compared to 450cc injectors as what the 5speeds would have. So you may wan to upgrade your injectors as well and some form of fuel managment (SAFC). Just also letting you know the difference between the 1g autos's and 5speeds are first..

Automatic Manuel
Turbo:tdo4h 13g td05h 14b
injectors: 390cc 450cc

And then also the cams are more aggresive on the M/t's. The ecu off the m/t is also different the auto one is made for the 350cc injectors but if you get a safc you wont really need the m/t ecu.

 

[DSMohsoquik]

yeah i ran into the same problem when i upgraded turbos, the only thing you need is a the coolant feed line and! THE COOLANT BOLT! make sure you get that bolt because it is also a tad bigger, other than that, everything is cake

 

[ShapeGSX]

Stock Evos come with 550cc/min injectors, and even those are too small to max out the turbo. 390cc/min is suicide.

 

[BoostedZ24]

I'm really not looking to go crazy as far as boosting wise, I was planning on selling the car, I just want to make sure who ever drives it, be it my girlfriend or I when I'm not driving my Z-24 around is going to be safe and wont have it blow. I can't dump a lot of money into it... I'm planning on getting the EVO III manifold only due to mine being cracked. My ECM should be able to support the EVOI III turbo as long as I don't turn up any boost right? I was told I had to buy the "Coolent C Line", the "Coolent Return line" and the "Oil return feed line" plus bolts.

 

[VRMAN]

Definately at least get stock injectors out of a manual DSM. You can find them on DSMtrader all day. So w/o the 450cc+ I would be very careful. If you could find some 510cc Evo injectors, that would be perfect.

 

[BoostedZ24]

So with out the injectors I can't run the car safly? isn't this great.. I go from spending x amount of money being I don't have a lot to dump into the car, to upgrading half the engine just to make a fricken turbo work -sighs- so much for directl bolt on and drive it? So will the 450's work with the auto ECM, or will i have to buy a FMU as well and a fuel pump and change my throttle body as well? at this right I could just go to a junk yard buy a whole new engine and swap it .

This car IS for sale now by the way. I've only put an additonal 1500 in the last 2 weeks, new exhaust, new turbo, now a new manifold (Evo III) as long as that bolts up and all the coolent lines and oil lines.

Tim

 

[TurboGarageTech]

Hey Timothy, Ryan from Turbo Garage here that you've been talking on the phone with. Sorry we've ended up having so much miscommunication about the AT problem. I can understand you not being terribly excited about having to put more money in the car to boost it safely, but unfortunately, this is typically the case even when putting a 16g class turbo on a 1G MT car as well. I'd recommend the following to be able to romp on the car without too much worry, and there are a few different options to choose from:

1.) MT ECU + 550cc injectors (I've seen that the 16g usually flows enough air to make up the difference in injector size over 450's without an AFC...however your fuel trims for part throttle and idle may be a bit wonky).

1.) your AT ECU + 550cc injectors + SAFC (this should give you plenty of tunability, even though you'll have to adjust the SAFC higher than you would with an MT ECU)

2.) Mechanical boost gauge (Autometer or Westach will be fine, and cheap)

3.) Datalogger cable (there's a local guy that makes them I can get you in contact with, about $35-$40) and your laptop (if you have one)

3.) Digital voltmeter style O2 sensor voltage readout (about $75, and at least will give you an idea if you're going REALLY lean, although not a perfect tuning tool)

Any combination of 3 of the above and you should be just fine for WOT without too much worry of going lean and blowing the motor, especially if you plan to hook up the wastegate actuator directly and run as low of boost as possible. Alternatively you could add a cheap MBC and have a little extra tunability.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Originally posted by TurboGarageTech
1.) MT ECU + 550cc injectors (I've seen that the 16g usually flows enough air to make up the difference in injector size over 450's without an AFC...however your fuel trims for part throttle and idle may be a bit wonky).

Uhh, no. That is horrible advice. The car will run pig rich when in open loop.

 

[VRMAN]

Ditto, 550cc w/no SAFC will run like ass.

 

[TurboGarageTech]

I agree on paper it looks ridiculous (and I did say his trims are going to be all over the place), but I've known 3 or 4 people who threw them in with 16Gs before they bought an AFC and the car ran fine with somewhat worse gas mileage (lost a couple MPG). And at WOT, it ran great. By no means the proper solution, but if you're on a budget, it saves you the $300 an AFC runs. This was also at 6000ft. elevation, which should have made the effect even worse. Timothy's at sea level, so it may not be that big an issue. Dunno, threw it in as a suggestion because I've seen it work in the past.

 

[MrPikolo]

Since it is an automatic, you need to replace the manifld anyway. The 1g automatic manifold is different from the 1g 5-speed manifold.

 

[BoostedZ24]

Ryan, thank you very much for the phone call and also the postings. I'll try to check the sale section later on when My PC cable service stops dropping every 2 min's. I think I recall someone selling RC 550's here on the board or 450's.. one of the two pretty cheep. I wish I had a laptop I got a huge PC, would look REALLLLLLLY bad in a Talon =P

I'm just hoping with all the money I put out, the 16g evo iii turbo, evo iii manifold, new flex pipe \ exhaust that everything will work.

If I do get my hands on some 450cc injectors from a 5spd Talon or eclipse, I can still run on my stock ECM correct? As far as the boost gague goes I'm sure I can add one if I need. As far as the advice, again thanks for trying to help, the miscommunication was a mistake, but the support and service is perfect.

I won't have the funds avail for any type of SAFC or datalogger, I spent
500$ more then planned already (and thats with out the injectors which I seem to have to get...)

Also with the M\T ECM, wouln't that throw off my shift points on my auto transmission being its controlled by the computer? I know on my Z-28 and Z-24 the ECM's are different and send different infomation and wouldn't work.

Timothy

 

[TurboGarageTech]

If I do get my hands on some 450cc injectors from a 5spd Talon or eclipse, I can still run on my stock ECM correct?

I still think you're going to get in trouble with 450's, especially if you're pushing over about 11psi. This is despite the fact that the AT ECU is still going to think you have 390's.

Also with the M\T ECM, wouln't that throw off my shift points on my auto transmission being its controlled by the computer? I know on my Z-28 and Z-24 the ECM's are different and send different infomation and wouldn't work.

Honestly, my knowledge of AT cars (especially 1g's) is pretty limited, although I believe the ECU's are functionally the same except for the injector disparity, and that the transmission is controlled by a seperate ECU. Can anyone confirm/deny?

 

[VRMAN]

I've run a small 16G on 450 injectors and boosted 13psi with safe injector duty cycle, don't worry about that.

 

[BoostedZ24]

Alright, I am begining to feel a little better about this turbo thing

Now, if I can get my hands on some 450cc's and drop them into my Talon I'm praying I'll be alright. I'll also see if I can find anyone selling any cheep boost gagues I can wire up. Thanks yet again

 

[Kinetic Boost]

Just get the 450cc injectors and the M/T ecu and keep the boost down and you should be ok. But dont just get the 450cc injectors and no ECU becuase it will run like ass still.

 

[Evo316gtalon]

the 450's should be ok if not boosted high but if he just want's to get it runnin and sell it i think he would be ok......pm me about the 450's ill tell u a bit more about em if u want

 

[dirk3]

I just put an evo III on my completly stock car.. No problems whatsoever...

 

[TurboGarageTech]

I'm going to guess it's not an automatic though.

 

[dirk3]

No it's not, but I thought one of the questions was whether or not 450 injectors would work..

 

[BoostedZ24]

Alright, update on my current Turbo Install issue. Today I got the EVO III manifold, and along with all the parts for the turbo (IE, coolent lines, washers, etc) had the shop install. Afterwards I turned the car on and after a few heart beats heard the engine. I did drive the car home and it ran a HECK of a lot better vs a blown turbo (the old turbo has so much shaft play you could've.. (better not say it on the board.) Now comes to my next issue.

My car has no boost gauge other then the cheep one that came with the car (oem) and is still only using the 390cc injectors. a gentlemen on the board has offered me his used 450cc's from his 92 5spd, but will I still need to get the mangment unit? if so what type do I need? Costs? I don't want to spend an arm and a leg, just enough to keep it safe. Thanks everyone for your input!

 

[blcknspo0ln]

you're stepping up from 390's to 450's.. just like going from 450's to 550's ; IMO you're gonna need some sort of tuning device [ probably an SAFC ]

good luck and have fun... oh, and GET A BOOST GAUGE [ they can be had for cheap now, check out autometer ]