I want to upgrade my turbo, which one has crazy power but can still be daily driven?

[jeramie]

What turbo? T3/T4 or a 20G ? Which is the cheapest setup, and can still be daily driven?

 

[BatmanGSX]

A 20G can be a really reasonable street turbo. If you get an internal gate they are like dirt cheap to run. They install on a 2G almost as easy as a 16G too. T3/T4... it's a good setup but you can get into a 20G for half the price.

 

[jeramie]

thanks for the reply but, any other suggestions for big hp?

 

[mavisky]

it all depends on how adept you are with tools. we have two t3/t4 's on daily driven cars in our club and all they bought was a turbo (which they got real f'in good deals on) and modified the stock manifold to fit, then made cutsom oil lines and o2 housing.

personally i think the t3/t4's are better than the 20g. for one the 20g has big lag, then a hard hit of power. the t3/t4 on the other hand seems to be constantly building boost from 3000 on, it comes on alot more gradually.

 

[Geovannie]

Originally posted by mavisky


personally i think the t3/t4's are better than the 20g. for one the 20g has big lag, then a hard hit of power. the t3/t4 on the other hand seems to be constantly building boost from 3000 on, it comes on alot more gradually.

20G Lag? Is there such a thing? I could not tell the difference between my small 16g and my 20g. Spooled about the same. I think the 20G is still probably the best bang for your buck turbo out there. They can be had all day long on the trader for 6-700 bucks since everybody has joined this whole I want a 10 sec daily driver bs. 16G like spool and 11 sec capable what more can you ask for.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by Geovannie


20G Lag? Is there such a thing?

No sh|t. 20Gs have barely more lag than a 16G. Boost threshold is like 200-300rpm different but the 20G is capable of supporting almost 100hp more. A 20G is a really good choice because it bolts on so easy.

Now that the "can't use an internal on a 20G" myth is dispelled I have a feeling that it will become the next "in" turbo. Proven performance, easy to install, cheap. How can you ask for anything more? If you have a $25 elbow welded on it even fits a 2G like stock.

 

[mavisky]

my problem with 20's is that i know 2 people with them and neither are worth the price they paid. i've got connections to where i can get rebuilt garrets at $400-$500 so the premium you pay simply isn't worth it to me. not to mention neither of those cars runs half as well as the garret powered ones.

 

[Geovannie]

Originally posted by mavisky
my problem with 20's is that i know 2 people with them and neither are worth the price they paid. i've got connections to where i can get rebuilt garrets at $400-$500 so the premium you pay simply isn't worth it to me. not to mention neither of those cars runs half as well as the garret powered ones.

Why do I get the feeling that the problem is not the turbo?

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by mavisky
my problem with 20's is that i know 2 people with them and neither are worth the price they paid. i've got connections to where i can get rebuilt garrets at $400-$500 so the premium you pay simply isn't worth it to me. not to mention neither of those cars runs half as well as the garret powered ones.

The major problem with the Garretts is you have to get a manifold/header (which will crack) or an adaptor (which will leak). Then you have to get dedicated o2 Sensor housing and an external wastegate. We already know a 20G is around $1050 from most places, the basic Garrett kit is now going for $1900.

Just because your friends couldn't get 20Gs to work right doesn't mean nobody else will. Infact people have already gotten 20Gs to work well. Numerous 11 second cars and a couple 10 second cars have used the 20G. Don't try to pass on the bad luck your friends have as fact about the 20G. Maybe your friends don't know what they are doing.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by BatmanGSX
The major problem with the Garretts is you have to get a manifold/header (which will crack)

No it wont. How much real world proof will you need before you are satisfied?

As for the Garrett vs 20g. If you have to buy a 95 manifold along with upgrading the turbo then a pretty good case can be made for the Garrett. The only problem is that you need to get some expensive things right away like the externa, O2 housing etcl. But most things you would eventually want to replace on your 20g setup anyway.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by rdrkt

No it wont. How much real world proof will you need before you are satisfied?

I want to see it on the average DSMers daily driven car for a few years with no issues. Seldomly driven race cars do not remotely qualify.

The bottom line is that a non-mitsu based turbo is not a good choice for the average DSMer on this site. Too many things to worry about let alone picking the combination of wheel trims and housings. I couldn't settle on a Garrett combo I thought I would be happy with beyond a doubt, what makes you think the average guy who can't read a compressor map is going to make an educated choice?

 

[DCJ98GST]

The AGP LR1 will be out at the end of September. AGP claims it flows 42lbs/min just under the 20G, I think. It is a ball bearing turbo so it should spool up much faster than the 20G; probably very streatable.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by BatmanGSX
I want to see it on the average DSMers daily driven car for a few years with no issues. Seldomly driven race cars do not remotely qualify.

Well my car is my only method of transportation. So I would say it qualifies as a daily driver and not a seldom driver race car. As for the years with having no issues I cant say I’m there yet. I have had mine for about 14 months with no issues whatsoever and that is with the crappy turbonetic mani. I would expect a lot more from the much better built SFP mani. I really wish I had one of those jet hot coated bad boys under my hood. Does a 95 manifold hold up for years of daily driven abuse too?

Originally posted by BatmanGSX
The bottom line is that a non-mitsu based turbo is not a good choice for the average DSMer on this site. Too many things to worry about let alone picking the combination of wheel trims and housings. I couldn't settle on a Garrett combo I thought I would be happy with beyond a doubt, what makes you think the average guy who can't read a compressor map is going to make an educated choice?

I don’t at all. But for what AGP is charging for a t3/t4 its getting harder and harder to chose a mitsu based turbo. I think if a vendor came out with a few well thought out combos they could sell very well. Especially if you consider the bling factor. Yo DaWg I gotz one of dem t3/t4z and it flowz mad air yo.

 

[BatmanGSX]

I didn't know your car was daily driven. And yes, there are a couple people out there, yourself included, that are making a good case for the "crappy" Turbonetics manifold as well as the SFP. I'm not saying a 20G is "better" than any Garrett. I'm saying that for the average DSMer it's probably a better choice because it's so easy and there isn't a lot of theory or guess work involved in the performance or install.

 

[BatmanGSX]

And as for a '95 manifold, my friend has been using a ported one on a daily driver for about three years and he has put 30K on it. It has not cracked. I've personally seen it glowing a few times and with the abusive heat cycling the winters here will cause a manifold to go through I'd say they hold up well.

 

[mavisky]

i just got back from taking a ride in my friend's newly installed garret 60 trim and he got the entire thing installed (oil lines, 02 housing, manifold adapter, turbo, and wastegate) for only $700.

now you show me any website where you can get a 20g for $700 and i'll buy one myself. even if he'd gotten a new garret instead of a reman it would have cost him only $900. add in a tubular or turbonetics manifold and you're at maybe 1400. and it'll outperform the 20g anyday.

i realize the 20g is a good turbo to those who's are setup right, and i never said my friend's were the best, but for turbo's that start at that price i don't see the point in it. same with the new l2r's and the like. they're just half garret's. why #@%#@%#@%#@%#@% foot around them, just get the real deal and be done with it.

and actually the turbo he bought is available with an internal gate as well if you don't have the immediate money to go external.

 

[Black95GSX]

Originally posted by BatmanGSX


I want to see it on the average DSMers daily driven car for a few years with no issues. Seldomly driven race cars do not remotely qualify.

That's right.... 1g manfiolds NEVER crack....

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by Black95GSX



That's right.... 1g manfiolds NEVER crack....

Where did I claim that, sparky? The guy who started this thread has a 2G so the 1G manifold is a non issue.

 

[Black95GSX]

Just being sarcastic


You never said they don't crack..... but you did state that you don't trust garrett manifolds because they crack.



I have seen 95 style mani's crack... but those have been very few and far between.


edit: for the record, my turblownetics manifold cracked -- I now use a SFP after talking to a friend who ran one for a year w/o problems.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Well if you consider the fact that most 1G guys already replaced their cracked manifold with a 2G manifold long ago then it seems kind of weak to have to replace it again with a Garrett. Now if you have a cracked 1G manifold and haven't already gotten a 2G then the story changes a little... Except that you can get uncracked 2G manifolds with the stepped removed for around $75 if you know where to look.

I'm not saying "no way" to Garretts. I think in some cases they are a good choice. Especially if you are building a race car and like to experiement a lot. Or if you have decided to go with a GT series turbo or something. But for the average (and I must stress that a lot) DSMer it's just not the way to go.

 

[NDgsx]

The average dsmer has no business touching a 20G. They should be running 16Gs. Not that anyone will take advice I give to heart. Everybody has to have a race car.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Nick, the average DSMer should have a SOHC Civic with a CAI and muffler welded to the stock exhaust but that is beside the point.

 

[Black95GSX]

Batman... you have a point.



I'm still a firm beleiver that F&F did more harm then good to the industry.

 

[custom240sx]

Once my engine gets rebuilt i will replace the 17c with a 20g for

 

[Ludachris]

Originally posted by mavisky
now you show me any website where you can get a 20g for $700 and i'll buy one myself.

I found one for $720 from our new partner - is that close enough?
http://www.eccentric-motorsports.com/pages/731418/index.htm

Of course, this one is isn't your typical 20G, so maybe it doesn't count:
"20G 8cm stuffed into TD05H housing, looks like a 16g, flows like a 20g, ported, direct fit for 1G"