400 hp build up

[91mitsu]

Being new to the newer generation cars, I thought I would get your opinion on a build up I'm working on.

I'm rebuilding my engine and an shooting for 400 hp at the tires when it's all said and done. This car will be my daily driver as well as a personal vengences to beat a friends TA.

Car details - 91 GSX with 135,000 miles. Timing belt broke, pulling motor and doing rebuild.

Currently I have these upgrades slotted:
Block will be bored .20 over,
Wiseco forged pistons mounted on 1G stock rods,
Cleavette bearings,
ARP bolts through out,
Upgraded fuel lines, wiring and pump,
HRC 625 cc fuel injectors,
2G maf, exhaust mani (bored)
Supra IC and pipe upgrades,
3" exhaust from turbo back,
Single spring and TI retainer kit,

The turbos that I have been thinking about are the AGP L1R, Big 16 and 20.

Any additions/modifications and deletions to the setup mentioned would be greatly appreciated.

 

[BatmanGSX]

1) use mitsu bearings
2) don't use a Supra IC
3) where is your fuel control?
4) better aim a little higher on the turbo
5) you're forgetting all the sh|t you are going to break in your driveline

6) it's not as easy as all that, if it were that easy to build a 400hp DSM everyone would have one. Sorry but all these posts about "400hp", 10 second street car", "turbo for 11s" come off as arrogant. I've been trying to build a 400hp DSM for years, I've spent $7-10K just on parts and stuff that has broken. What makes you think you can do it if I can't?

 

[Quacylla]

Take the big 16G out of your list... it's not big enough. Add the FP Green and Red to the list.

Fuel computer... better go stand alone (Haltek).

You have to open up the airflow more at the top... cams/intake.

Get a top of the line race FMIC.

Gotta get a race clutch and good flywheel.

(maybe set your sites a bit lower for now)

 

[2-0turbo]

Originally posted by BatmanGSX
it's not as easy as all that, if it were that easy to build a 400hp DSM everyone would have one. Sorry but all these posts about "400hp", 10 second street car", "turbo for 11s" come off as arrogant. I've been trying to build a 400hp DSM for years, I've spent $7-10K just on parts and stuff that has broken. What makes you think you can do it if I can't?

And speaking of arrogance, your last statement smacks of arrogance. To answer your question, maybe you don't know what you are doing. What do you do for a living? With that piece of information, I might possibly understand your motivation for making stupid posts.

 

[BatmanGSX]

Originally posted by 2-0turbo


And speaking of arrogance, your last statement smacks of arrogance. To answer your question, maybe you don't know what you are doing. What do you do for a living? With that piece of information, I might possibly understand your motivation for making stupid posts.

Yeah, I have no clue what I am doing.

To tell you the truth maybe I have made 400hp. I had hoped to be close to 400hp at the crank with my 20G. Unfortunatly my timing belt skipped within one day of getting that combo together, the car was still on jackstands. My point is it's not easy as coming up with a parts list. Even if you do have a good list you are still going to break a bunch of crap on the way. I know all the DSMtooners here think you can build a 9 second car for $5000 but I would like to see any one of you try it.

What does what I do for a living have to do with anything, high school boy? To answer your question I am a GIS Consultant. I bet you probably don't know what that is so I will spell it out for you: Geographic Information Systems. I've worked for the largest telecommunications companies in the country/world. Does this mean I know anything about DSMs? Does it mean I don't? Enlighten us.

 

[4g63dsm]

Oh yea what company? Verizon? I also work in GIS but i work with the software.

 

[BatmanGSX]

I PMed you.

 

[McGruff]

hehe say hi to Batman..He is a WiseASS man..heh. he is right tho its hard as fuk to even try and make 350hp DSM without breaking stuff. a 400hp daily driven dsm is really really hard to make so lets not get to high there. Lets go for more like what i am going for. a 12.5-13.0 daily driver. around 320 or lower at the crank....with that setup you should be able to beat alot more cars then you think. So lets get off the 400hp thing.

O also you people need to learn to read before giving sugestions he said DAILY driver....so lets kindly take off the RED that is more of a DRAG only turbo..

 

[nothing stock]

Choose a bigger turbo (Green, L2R, Red, L3R) and add some C16 to your list. Better have some kind of way to log knock. Skip the Wisco pistons and use 2g pistons. You don't need bigger fuel lines. The intercooler needs to be really big. 2-216 core or bigger IMO.

It's not easy, but the parts list isn't a mystery. And no doubt if you havn't done a turbo swap yet, you shouldn't expect to get these numbers just by swapping parts.

Honestly the best advice I can give you is let someone else rebuild the engine. Unless you've done a lot of them before. At least read "engine blueprinting", that's a decent overview of what should be done on a rebuild.

Good luck

 

[2gTurboS]

I am just going to agree with pretty much what everyone said to enforce the fact that it is very difficult to build such a machine you are dreaming of.If my money situation was a bit better and I hadnt just blown my tranny a few months ago.yes I swapped it myself but parts still cost money(friend tore it apart to swap the diff I did the rest).Like someone else mentioned you would be suprised how fast your car will be even with a 16G and a few supporting mods, trust me you'll smile when you punch it...so start small move up from there..Peace Corey

 

[HighPsi91]

400hp at the wheels is very attainable on racegas with the right combination of parts and tuning. You will not need to upgrade your fuel lines. You will however need a larger fuel pump and injectors. 650cc would do the job. As others stated, the supra IC is really not the best way to go if your goal is 400whp. It would be a cheaper upgrade for 300ish but 400.... take everyones advice. Clevitte bearings are fine. Every engine I ever built (and theres alot) had clevittes in them. You will need some form of fuel management... the SAFC is a cheap and effective solution. You will need to run about 22-25 psi to make the power you are after. My turbo suggestions (if you want a bolton) include the AGP L2R or FP Green. Dont go bigger than you need otherwise you will just be adding unnecessary lag. An external wastegate is not a requirement but I think it is the better way to go even though it costs a bit more. Alot of these guys think its nearly impossible to make 400whp as a daily driver. Its not impossible but tuning for that much power on pump gas IS very hard. I and several others have done it. A better and easier goal is to shoot for 400whp on race gas and high boost... then for street duty keep boost 18-19psi and be happy with whatever power it makes. (Which will still be enough to beat most f-bodies) Upgrading parts like the clutch is a no brainer at this point. Your ability to tune and drive will still have the final say None of us know your ability level, so to pass judgement is just rude.

 

[2-0turbo]

Originally posted by BatmanGSX

What does what I do for a living have to do with anything, high school boy? To answer your question I am a GIS Consultant. I bet you probably don't know what that is so I will spell it out for you: Geographic Information Systems. I've worked for the largest telecommunications companies in the country/world. Does this mean I know anything about DSMs? Does it mean I don't? Enlighten us.

High school boy...that is funny. :laugh: Are you familiar with sarcasm?

Some good info has been exchanged on this thread, despite my mud-slinging, so I'll keep this post my last and maybe the tech discussion (which I have contributed zero to) will continue. Batman, I was curious if maybe you studied philosphy or home economics, you know, just based on some of your posts. Since you say GIS, I'll have to take your word for it. This is after all, the Internet.

Contrary to what you might think, I don't dislike you, even though I pick sometimes. I just think your attitude sucks and I wish you would lose it. I know you have some good info to contribute to this board. You have proven that you can tune (toon) a DSM based on your webpage and your 1/4 mile times and I think you have a lot of information to share. But, your method is harsh and you come off sounding rude and boorish to many--including myself. If you are going to answer a post in a condescending manner, I and many others would simply rather you hit the "back" button and move on.

I KNOW people ask the same questions all the time and cannot figure out how to use the search. THEY will always be present on these boards and THEY will always ask stupid (to me and you) questions. That doesn't mean you need to browbeat them and point out their folly.

My whole purpose for engaging you (albeit, in a public forum) was to ask you to chill out. I know others are tired of your posts and so am I. Just practice a little tolerance. If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't say anything.

91mitsu, good luck with the build-up. There is some good info in this thread. Read a bunch more and go buy some parts. Have a good night.

Regards,
Matt
'90 Talon AWD (slower than Batman's)

PS - Batman, I was in college before you started high school.

 

[BatmanGSX]

I don't see anything wrong with my post. I said these types of posts can come off as arrogant. I don't think I am the only one who sees it this way. I didn't say the original poster was arrogant, I said the post came off as arrogant. People just don't realize how hard building a race/street/strip car is. 300hp at the crank is one thing but 400whp is something totally different. I'm just very tired of everyone thinking they have come up with a list of bolt ons that will produce xx hp or xx.xx 1/4th mile time. Maybe I am bitter because my car has been sitting since Feb. and it blew instantly after I had completed a buildup.

I did try to help the guy out with some of his choices, you may or may not have noticed that. But I am also going to speak my mind. Sorry, that's how I am. If I have to get used to the way others post maybe you all need to get used to how I post.

 

[TRBOTSI]

I'm siding with BatmanGSX on this one..95% of the people who put up posts like this one asking about their little parts, are complete strokers and won't do #@%#@%#@%#@% with their dsm's, if they even have one. They're lucky if they can afford to put gas in the damn things.

 

[candela]

Im not on anyones side here, but why od these posts make you guys so mad. If you have the knowledge than share it. It ducks to read through a post and see smart asses (not geared towards anyone) make fun or be sarcastic to others. Not everyone thinks to themsleves that 400whp is not obtainable, if they did then there wouldn't be these posts. For that fact, don't let it get to you.
Who in this forum says or thinks they can make 400whp by bolting on a recommended list of parts? I doubt if anyone has...Batman you usually have info that helps me out as well as others, its just that you say very harsh, as if those who don't know as much as you are fugging aceholes or something. Highpsi answered the question without getting mad...why cat you guys? Im not denoncing you batman, just saying how you come off as, thats all. This arguing and bitter arse reply's should stop. I know how it feels(so do others) to have your car down for a while. I had no car for over a year at one point...

"Can't we all just get along?"

 

[NDgsx]

Do not use ARP main hardware. It is smaller than stock hardware and can allow the thrust bearing main cap to move (which misaligns the bearing, voila crankwalk). There is nothing wrong with stock main hardware, I know Shepard was running stock mains on his engine. His engine has made a lot of 9 second passes at 147-151 with no problems. Save yourself the headache.

Have the mains align honed. And RESIZE THE RODS WITH THE ARP HARDWARE TORQUED TO SPEC. I can not stress how important this is. The different hardware will distort the bore so that it is no longer true.

I still like the good ol 20G, but if you want 400whp on pump gas then it may be too small.

My most important piece of advice is don't overstrain yourself. Rebuild the engine, put it back in with everything stock. Add one part at a time. Get to know the car. Have fun driving it. Don't do one of these major build ups all at once. Yeah they're great when they're done, but the journey is a lot less fun, and many people give up part way through.

 

[candela]

I agree 100%...as I made that mistake. I did everything at once in mine, and when it was started it took me a while to work out all the bugs. On top of that I didnt get to see what each mod did to the acr which I regret...good advice!!

 

[Sean91TSi]

Adding to many parts at one time = having to fix alot of #@%#@%#@%#@% done wrong at one time been there done that.

But like said before start off slow but if u wanna go nuts here a little list iv compiled. (make sure u leave yourself 500+ dollars to tune or it isnt worth jack what your doing. 400hp is hard but attainable with money for dyno time.



Intake: Extrude honed intake manifold, Buschur racing cold air intake, Bushcur racing front mount innercooler with tial blow off valve.

Turbocharger: Buschur racing 20G featuring a td06-20g compressor housing with a ported 7cm2 exhaust housing. Stock wastegate welded shut.

Boost control: Simple Marc Hallman manual boost controller.

Exhuast: Ported 95 exhaust manifold with tial external wastegate, Lancer EVO III oxygen sensor housing, 3 inch mandrel bent downpipe, 3 inch straight pipe and a 3 inch thermal reasearch and development cat-back.

Drivetrain: Act 2600 lb clutch kit, short throw shifter and symborski shift kit. 4 Bolt rear end

Engine: 95 pistons, no balance shafts, arp head studs, unorthodox racing crank pulley, magnacore 8.5mm wires, Ngk bpr7es plugs and hks 264 intake cam and 272 exhaust cam.

Fuel system: Walbro 255lph high flow fuel pump hardwired with 10 gague wire, 550cc upgraded fuel injectors and a paxton fuel presure regulator

Electronics: HKS VPC/GCC Various gauges

Those parts are what my buddy had on his 90 GSX it put down 355 WHP@18 PSi on pump gas

Lot more than what u had isnt it.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by candela
HighPsi91 answered the question without getting mad...why can't you guys

Wes (HighPsi91)is a very patient guy and that is what makes him cool. His patience is what got him to #11 on dsmtimes.org. This isn’t something that happened over night it took a lot of work and tuning. He will be the first one to tell you that you cant bolt on a lot of parts and expect things to work perfectly the first time you turn the key. And even with the “right” parts list you still have to have someone that is knowledgeable tune the thing. Whether that be you or a DSM vendor.

I am making 400+ hp on pump gas. While I haven’t visited the dyno to get the exact numbers if you plug in a full weight awd Talon running a 117 trap all the calculators put it at well over 400. I’m thinking that there is a good chance that LarryD should be at or near the 400hp on pump gas level very soon. Tuning for 400 hp on pump gas is real hard. You run into a lot of obstacles. I’m running safc and a hacked MAS and Wes had to try all sorts of tricks to get everything sorted out. The best thing you can do for yourself is to learn as much about this as possible.

 

[larryd]

Dave.. you sound like a wes spokesman.. ever thought of going into advertising

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by larryd
Dave.. you sound like a wes spokesman.. ever thought of going into advertising

I love to give friends their "props". Im sure that when you are running good numbers and smoking your friends you will want to do the same thing.

 

[91mitsu]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I have been watching these boards for quite some time now. I appreciate the wealth of information that the members have contributed to the pursuit of great DSM's. And responding to dreamers such as myself.

I will say that I am fairly new to the Tuners motor world, however, have been rebuilding big block, late 60's, GM's for years now (current project is a 70 Buick GS convertable). As a matter of record, I have owned this 91 GSX since 92.

I did forget to mention the upgrade to the cams and the electronics to be able to tune the vehicle.

Out of curiosity, why would upgrading to the 2G pistons (with an estimated cost of $200 in parts & $200 in shop fees to machine the rods to match the pistons, give or take a few dollars on either side) be a better option then upgrading to the Wiseco direct fit forged pistons?

Again, thanks for the great information. Hopefully these kind of responses will aid others in keeping their vision realistic, or what they can expect, as they move into the fast lane with their DSM.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by 91mitsu
Out of curiosity, why would upgrading to the 2G pistons (with an estimated cost of $200 in parts & $200 in shop fees to machine the rods to match the pistons, give or take a few dollars on either side) be a better option then upgrading to the Wiseco direct fit forged pistons?.

Because forged pistons on a daily driver is kind of a gray area. I don’t have a running forged piston motor yet so I cant give you direct experience but from what I have heard/seen forged pistons don’t love the 5-10min commute to work. However a cast 2g piston is a lot more forgiving of engine temperature and it more than sturdy enough to make 500+ hp to the wheels. It all kind of depends on finding an machine shop that you are comfortable with etc and also what type of duty the car will see will it be a weekend car or daily driver.

 

[Sicstylz]

A-men.