Auto issues you CAN'T solve. Prove me wrong

[CrackedDSM]

I was at the track last Friday or so making some passes. My first mistake, and what leads me to believe I blew or warped the 1st gear end clutches, was that I made about 7 hot laps, brake boosting everytime.(I know this was a mistake, but they keep pressuring me and wouldn't let me cool down at all) On the last pass, I was brake boosting, got to full boost and it started pulling through the brakes..and then it happened. It popped out of 1st. It didn't go into neutral, it just acted like I flipped the switch(I have my own shift box) into the next gear. Light turned green and I hit the gas and it popped itself back into first, and shifted fine. However by the end of the track, when I tried to downshift back into 1st...it wouldn't go into first. Again, there was no slipping or popping itself into neutral..it just stubbornly stayed in 2nd or 3rd. Immediately after that I limped home. It would shift fine from 2nd into 3rd and into OD at first...but the more I drove it, eventually if I tried to shift at WOT from 3rd into OD, it would pop into neutral until I let off the gas, then it would shift into OD.

So I got home, let it cool off in neutral for awhile, turned it off and went to bed. I checked the wiring to the solenoids, and the solenoids the next morning, and they are getting power so the shiftbox isn't bad, the transmission fluid is still a red/crimson color, and isn't burned what so ever and there are no metal shavings/silvery/foreign objects in the trans fluid either. After I let it sit for awhile...it still doesn't have first. But, before it's warmed up it will shift from 2nd into 3rd, but it won't shift out of third at ALL(meaning it won't shift into OD, or 2nd) unless I come to a stop, put it in neutral, and then put it in D. Then it'll start out in second and shift into 3rd. After the trans is warmed up, it'll downshift and upshift fine(but still no 1st gear). Reverse also works like a charm..no slipping or anything, works great.

So, what does this sound like to you? Shift solenoids? Worn clutch packs? Did the heat kill a seal somewhere? Any and all help much appreciated!

 

[autotalon]

Sounds like worn end clutches to me...

 

[CrackedDSM]

Excuse my ignorance, but would end clutches effect 1st gear? I thought end clutches only effected OD.


I swear whoever gets it right I'll paypal you enough for a 12 pack of beer(or something of equal value if you don't drink).

 

[GDNF2ET]

Checking TCU for codes would help....Do you have a trans temp gauge ? If you do, what temps were you seeing ?

 

[SrKegler]

My knowledge of automatics is limited. However since the problem is in first gear, doesn't that narrow the problem down to the one-way clutch in the torque converter?

 

[CrackedDSM]

Checking TCU for codes would help....Do you have a trans temp gauge ? If you do, what temps were you seeing ?

I use a shift box, no TCU in the car. No trans temp gauge though, sadly. That's next on my list.

 

[autotalon]

There is also a front clutch pack, but I don't know the syptoms of that going, nor have I heard of them failing. I would ask John at IPT if he has any ideas.

 

[KeelesKustome]

This sounds earily similar to the issues i have.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drivetrain-tech/401135-automatic-questions.html

Basically it doesn't shift into 3rd with the shiftbox, or shifter mod. I think it's a solenoid issue. No slippage

 

[Jeff99GS]

I'd say your Torque converter is bad. Brake boosting a stock tranny is going to burn up that converter fast.

Just cause you don't see metal in the fluid doesn't mean there isn't 2 pounds of metal stuck to the magnet in the pan.

Sounds like the car is stuck in limp mode. It might be time to see a shop for some profesional opinions.

 

[born2tune]

I'd say your Torque converter is bad. Brake boosting a stock tranny is going to burn up that converter fast.

Just cause you don't see metal in the fluid doesn't mean there isn't 2 pounds of metal stuck to the magnet in the pan.

Sounds like the car is stuck in limp mode. It might be time to see a shop for some profesional opinions.

i only agree with the limp mode part. but its more of a solenoid thats going bad. couldnt tell you more without driving it.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

try 1st gear with the shifter in "L".

Sounds to me like malfunction of rear clutch or one-way clutch.

End clutch is used in OD and 3rd. Front clutch is for 3rd and reverse.

To clarify some other incorrect responses -

There is no limp mode without a TCU

Trans being stock has nothing to do with "burning up" a stock torque converter. Converter is just a slipper based on torque vs load differential. They are all the same just have different stall speeds.

 

[CrackedDSM]

try 1st gear with the shifter in "L".

Sounds to me like malfunction of rear clutch or one-way clutch.

End clutch is used in OD and 3rd. Front clutch is for 3rd and reverse.

To clarify some other incorrect responses -

There is no limp mode without a TCU

Trans being stock has nothing to do with "burning up" a stock torque converter. Converter is just a slipper based on torque vs load differential. They are all the same just have different stall speeds.

I was really waiting on your opinion, Dave. I have you on my AIM friends list but didn't want to bug you.


But, I was playing around the other day, and kept trying to shift it with the solenoids, and tried it with the shifter in L. I did that for a solid while, to no avail. But, I was determined to either get it to work, or to just break it all the way. So I went to drive it very slowly to see if that would have an effect on it.

Well, after I actually drove it and the transmission warmed up some..I finally got it to shift into 1st. It downshifted HARD into 1st, and then ever since then it shifts peachy. I drove it awhile yesterday and no slipping/dragging/etc and it shifted great. I let it cool overnight and waited until about 10:30 today to mess with it, and it did the same thing. I had to get it rolling and warm the transmission up to get it to downshift into first...since then it shifted just fine into every other gear. Even WOT 1-2 shift there's no slipping, bogging, or anything like that. (All of this with the shifter in D, and not in L. Never put it in L)

Still sound like a rear/one way clutch to you? IT just seems like the vibration from the transmission shaking/shifting is knocking Solenoid A into action(kind of like hitting a starter with a wrench whenever it's going bad, to get it to work).


I plan very soon to replace the solenoids, and while I'm there I'm going to check the magnets and see if anything is on them.


Thanks for all the help guys, mucho appreciated.

 

[Jeff99GS]

try 1st gear with the shifter in "L".

Sounds to me like malfunction of rear clutch or one-way clutch.

End clutch is used in OD and 3rd. Front clutch is for 3rd and reverse.

To clarify some other incorrect responses -

There is no limp mode without a TCU

Trans being stock has nothing to do with "burning up" a stock torque converter. Converter is just a slipper based on torque vs load differential. They are all the same just have different stall speeds.

So you're saying its impossible to have a bad torque converter...Thats odd. I'm not much of an auto trans person, but i know sitting on a hill with the brakes off and the car in drive is supposidly bad for the torque converter. I heard that from a trans guy that worked at spitzer rebuilding trannys for 30 years. I just feel like break boosting has to be putting extra stress on something.

I have a solution to your problem...BUY a MANUAL trans
Just kidding...dont get all mad.

 

[CrackedDSM]

No mad here. I'd like to see you manual guys get into the 12's on a 100% stock Manual trans, meaning stock clutch, stock trans, stock gears, stock everything trans related, and have it that way for 211,000 miles, including multiple trips from FL to NC going up the mountains and really enjoying them(meaning full boost and awesomness). I'm actually fairly proud of it tbh. It made like 7-8 back to back passes brake boosting every pass. Back to back as in I'd make a pass, get my slip, pull up to the staging lanes and get motioned/pulled up to the tree to run again. Rinse/repeat for 7-8 passes with no cool-downs.


That last part is very stupid on my part, I know this. Problem is I'm a nice guy so I let them do this to me, plus I'm greedy and wanted a low 12's pass. Next time though if they try to push me at the front of the line just to see me break, I'm going to give them the middle finger and tell them to wait.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

So you're saying its impossible to have a bad torque converter...Thats odd. I'm not much of an auto trans person, but i know sitting on a hill with the brakes off and the car in drive is supposidly bad for the torque converter. I heard that from a trans guy that worked at spitzer rebuilding trannys for 30 years. I just feel like break boosting has to be putting extra stress on something.

I have a solution to your problem...BUY a MANUAL trans
Just kidding...dont get all mad.

I don't see how that's bad for the converter really. It's just a slipper. More power vs load = more slip. All relative. You can certainly have a bad converter, just won't have these symptoms, and a the build of a trans has nothing to do with how long it lasts


If the problem is the solenoid, then when 1st won't work, neither will OD., assuming 2nd is the one that you were having issues with. Starting to sound more to me like a sticking valve in the valve body. But if you have OD failure at the same time as 1st gear failure, then I"d guess solenoid.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Yeah, whenever it doesn't want to shift(when the trans is cold) it'll shift from 2nd into 3rd...but then it stays in third. It won't upshift into OD, or downshift from 3rd at all(which you and I both know means both solenoids off). It stays in third and doesn't downshift or upshift until I keep flipping the switches in sequence, or roll back in reverse at less than 1mph and drop it into D a couple times. Then after that it'll start shifting. I swear it's exactly like hitting a bad starter to get it to work.


I honestly think it's either a VB issue or a solenoid issue.

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

It definitely sounds like the root is in the valve body.

As we know, if the solenoid that powers OD cuts out, it'll turn 1st gear into 2nd gear. So if you have 2nd and 3rd but no 1st or OD, that solenoid isn't working. But if all you have is 3rd, makes me think a valve is stuck. I had a VB I put a shift kit in once that did something similar to this. Took it back apart, disassembled, put it back together, and it worked perfect ever since. My guess was that something just tweaked and there was a sticking valve.

Make sure you properly torque the bolts on the VB, improper torque can twist the VB layers and make the valve bores out of round and cause them to stick

 

[GDNF2ET]

I use a shift box, no TCU in the car. No trans temp gauge though, sadly. That's next on my list.

If you can still plug in a TCU, you can see exactly where the problem is..If its a two plug, send me a PM...I've got one I can loan you to diagnose the problem....

 

[CrackedDSM]

It's a three plug, sadly. I found one 3 plug TCU in the local boneyard from a 2.0 n/t, and when I threw it in, at WOT it wouldn't want to shift..it would stick in gear pretty nastily, and it didn't like to shift into either 3rd or OD..I can't remember which..eventually it just threw itself into limp mode, and I just took it out and continued using my shift-box.

It definitely sounds like the root is in the valve body.

As we know, if the solenoid that powers OD cuts out, it'll turn 1st gear into 2nd gear. So if you have 2nd and 3rd but no 1st or OD, that solenoid isn't working. But if all you have is 3rd, makes me think a valve is stuck. I had a VB I put a shift kit in once that did something similar to this. Took it back apart, disassembled, put it back together, and it worked perfect ever since. My guess was that something just tweaked and there was a sticking valve.

Make sure you properly torque the bolts on the VB, improper torque can twist the VB layers and make the valve bores out of round and cause them to stick

That's what I'm thinking is either the solenoids or a valve sticking the TB. I've had a lot of people so far tell me it sounds like a VB issue.


So, I've been driving the car lately, and now it's changed symptoms a little bit. Now whenever it's cold/not warmed up, it only has first and second gear. When it's cold it's like when I shift into 2nd, it's like it gets stuck. Eventually it'll shift into 3rd...but then it doesn't want to downshift from 3rd into 2nd. It's like the solenoid is sticking on and when it's finally powered off, it stays off. It'll shift just dandy from 3rd into 1st though.

I did notice something though. Whenever it's doing that, it doesn't like to WOT shift from 1st into 2nd. When I try to WOT shift from 1st into 2nd, it's like someone pulls the ebrake(gently, not hard) and then it shifts. It doesn't slip or free rev, it just kind of bogs and then shifts. It's almost like fuel cut, just not as violent.

 

[casperfast]

I know this is old as dust, but what did you find?