MSnS or MS I 3.0??

djXternal · 02-23-2006, 01:27 PM

Ok well the last few days Ive been reading all I can about MegaSquirt, and I am sure that is the direction I am going to go after the turbo install and rebuild, and whatever else happens the same times as that... So basically what I havent seemed to figure out yet is what is the advantage to having the spark control? Also is it much harder to learn both fuel and spark control at once compared to just learning fuel control?

EDIT:
Oh and I thought this would be the right forum to post in, but if needed please move to the advanced tuning section

VelocitàPaola · 02-23-2006, 02:13 PM

Adding the spark will get you one step closer to making it a complete stand alone system. It will also give you the option of advancing/retarding the timing if you ever need to.

djXternal · 02-23-2006, 02:19 PM

ok, if there a way to keep all my current guages in my dash panel, speed, tach, etc... still working properly through MSnS? Also is there a way to get MSnS to take over coolant fans, alternator and other things it does not usually control that The Stock ECU handles so that I can make it a complete standalone?

VelocitàPaola · 02-23-2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djXternal

ok, if there a way to keep all my current guages in my dash panel, speed, tach, etc... still working properly through MSnS? Also is there a way to get MSnS to take over coolant fans, alternator and other things it does not usually control that The Stock ECU handles so that I can make it a complete standalone?

I believe so, because I know that MS can be used as a complete stand alone - I just don't know all the components necessary. I'll wait for Terry to fill you in better...

Talon ESI-T · 02-23-2006, 03:11 PM

MS can be used as a complee standalone, however there are a lot more mods that need to be done to do so. Right now the most effective way to use MS is to use the stock ECU to run the fans, fuel pump, ASD relay and the factory gauges like the speedo ect and MOST importantly, it controls the IAC. MS cant control our IAC

MS would need to have a 9 volt regulatd output to power the factory crank sensor for one. A transistor circuit would need to be added to run a fan output and a few more things. By doing this you will begine to run out of outputs that can be used to run nitrous, water injction ect. In otherwords MS only has so many outputs.

So....back your main question. What is the advantage of Fuel and spark. The factory has a very good spark curve, you can add an ignition box with boost retard and that will work fine for most people. However, if you find that there are spots in the timing map that need to be advanced or retarded, you will need to run spark to do so. If your goal is high PSI, then spark is obviously recommended. To learn to become a better tuner you should run fuel only then add spark later.

there are 2 versions of MS board. MS v2.2 and MS v3.0. Whats the difference? Obviously v3.0 is a newer more professionally designed board. v3.0 is built with the flyback circuit enhancement. This circuit will allow you to run low impedance injectors without the resistor pack and have them opperate in the correct peak and hold fashion. V2.2 only comes setup to run high impedance or low impedance with a resistor pack. The additional flyback circuit needs to be added as a secondary add on board.

what else?

The v3.0 has 1 ignition driver built in, to run the wasted coil setup such as a neon you need to add one more. the v2.2 does not have any. the Original way to run spark was to output the CPU signal to either an ignition box direct or to a ignitor such as the 4g63 ignitor. The downside to the 3.0 ignitor is if it fails, the repair involves soldering to replace it. That is why I recommend building for an external ignitor unless you have such capabilities.

What else?

The other variation of MS is the MS1 and MS2. the MS2 is nothing more than a daughter card that replaces the MS1 CPU. MS2 has not been coded to accept a Neon Crank so it doesnt help us. The MS2 has many features like the ability to control a stepper motor type IAC. Right now the only type of IAC we can run is a fast idle valve. this is simply and open close valve and doesnt help us much.

For people who want fuel control only or are not going to run low impedance injectors, or simply want to save all they can, i recomend the v2.2 to save money.

So, MSNS really isnt a type of MS, its just the configuration of when it is built. If you look into the INI files of MS, there are many other configs because the MS was originally designed to work with a distributor motor. MS was first used in antique pre emission cars where all people did was use the tach ouput of a MSD box to add fuel injectors and modify a carb to act as a TB.

Read a lot as you are but do not get overwhelmed with the info....I know, its like asking you to smell the chocolate but not have the desire to eat it......

Terry

VelocitàPaola · 02-23-2006, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talon ESI-T

What else?

It's not that significant, but didn't they promise sequential injection with v3.0? I don't know why, but the whole concept of non-sequential injection just bothers me...

Talon ESI-T · 02-23-2006, 03:21 PM

Sequential injection didnt have anything to do with v3.0. MS 2 was required to begin the developement because the MS1 cpu does not have the memory or capabilites to run sequential injection.

Even if sequential were to get implemented tomarrow, you wouldnt be able to use it. MS2 will not work with the NEon crank so that would force you to retrofit either the ford EDIS system or another type for crank trigger.

Terry

VelocitàPaola · 02-23-2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talon ESI-T

Even if sequential were to get implemented tomarrow, you wouldnt be able to use it. MS2 will not work with the NEon crank so that would force you to retrofit either the ford EDIS system or another type for crank trigger.

Terry

True, I didn't think about that. I just wish there were a way...

djXternal · 02-23-2006, 03:32 PM

Ok well then i think im going to the go with the MSI 3.0 with the MSnS setup, but not connected to the coils until I need to tune with spark...

Another question, Since MS connects to the tach sensor will I no longer have a working tach in my gauge cluster? or can the signal be shared with both the MS and stock ECU?

Talon ESI-T · 02-23-2006, 03:40 PM

You need to modify the board to accpt the crank signal. you dont wire it to a tach wire, that was tried before the crank sensor was decoded and it didnt work for some reason.

Terry

djXternal · 02-23-2006, 03:47 PM

Oh yea i remember reading that.... The part you are talking about modifying that board, is that the Hall/opto section of the board? I kno to install for a neon/420a on MSnS's page it says to build that circuit and the VR is not needed, if so I should order the 3.0 board with the Hall/opto built from rs-autosport when i order correct? things can get a bit confusing when you read constantly for 2 days lol

Talon ESI-T · 02-23-2006, 06:17 PM

I build em cheaper than rsautosport if you want one built for you. Send me a pm for prices and options. I build the unit complete with everyting so later down the road if you sell it or want to adapt it for another car you can. That and my time frame is a bit faster than rsautosport. unless i run into an unforseen problem like parts backorder or something, its generally 2 weeks after down payment received.

Terry

djXternal · 02-23-2006, 07:04 PM

Alright PM'd

Alright now after reading through some of the tuning section in the MegaManual I think im starting to piece everything together in my mind, I just want to get confirmation on something

The only things directly MS related I need to purchase are the coolant and air intake temp sensors, the MS module, and then just wiring and a connector to make a harness? All the other sensors needed for MS can use the stock sensors correct?

XMasta19 · 02-23-2006, 09:11 PM

You will have a pm from Terry....but all that will be included if wanted

Talon ESI-T · 02-23-2006, 11:22 PM

MS uses the following inputs from the stock ECU:

TPS
Crank Signal

MS uses the following input from its own sensors:

IAT
CTS
Map...built on MS ECU board

So all you need to run a MS setup is:

MS ECU
IAT
CTS
Laptop and comm cable
Injectors
1:1 regulator
Wideband o2.....you can use a narrow band but tuning is not nearly as precise or easy
Harness

Here is what i offer to supply you:

MS
Harness
IAT
CTS
Comm Cable

You need to build your fuel lines and install a 1:1 regulator. Decide what wideband fits your demands, most work well its more preference.

Terry