Small performance tips

[Bohica]

Hello guys, I am new to these forums. This is my first post.

So let me let you know where I am coming from.

I have had a 1991 Eclipse for many years now, and it was just a beater. It was transportation back and forth to college, etc. Well, just recently, it has become our third car, and I don't really have a need for it. So I decided to make a project out of it. I am going to make a budget racer.

There is a good side and a bad side to this. The bad side is that I am going to try to keep the project in the $1,000 range. The good side is that I don't care about the car, and it is not a daily driver so it doesn't have to ride good, or be a practical car.

I have a moderate knowledge of cars, but I am hoping you can help me with DSM tips or even FWD tips.

This is what I have planned for the car:

Intake
Header
remove cat
P chip upgrade
under drive pulleys

That is about all for the parts I am putting on it. This is a list of mods I plan to do.

Severe weight reduction - If it's not essential, it is coming out. Bumpers, seats, spare tire/jack, trim, carpeting, dashboard, etc.

I also have a few mods that I am not SURE they will help, but my understanding of physics tell me they will.

I am going to stiffen the suspension, particularly in the rear. My thinking is that I don't want the car to rock back on take off and absorb any torque or power.

I am going to weld the engine into the car so it cannot move. When the engine rocks, robs some torque that should be going to your wheels. Of course this will rock the car more and cause it to be rougher inside, but as I mentioned above.......I don't care.

I want to remove any weight I can, and the weight that I cannot remove, I want to move to the front to help with traction. I want to remove the fuel tank, and mount a 5 or 8 gallon fuel cell under the hood.

My AC doesn't work anyway, so I am taking the air conditioner out and getting a belt for a non-AC car so it won't require any power to spin it. This should allow the motor to spool up faster, and that is the main problem with low displacement engines.

My car currently produces 132 hp according to the dyno, and I am shooting for around 170 or 180 hp. And I am shooting for removing somewhere around 350-450 pounds from the car.

Since you guys specialize in these kind of cars, I am sure you have all kinds of tips and secrets, to share with me. So lay it on me.

What kind of ETs do you guys get with these cars? I am shooting for low to mid 14's. Does that sound attainable?

Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

[Bohica]

By the way, I want to keep the car looking as stock as possible. Since the car won't be real super fast, I don't want to look like I am trying to make it that way.

I just want to surprise people. My car looks pretty rough, so no one would expect it to run low 14's. Especially since it is N/A.

 

[Bohica]

Sorry to keep posting in my own thread, but I also meant to mention that of course I am going to run about 30 psi in the front tires and 50 psi in the rear, and I wanted to mention that as the car sits right now, it runs 16.2 in the quarter mile.

Basically I just want to have some fun with the car, and nothing over 15 seconds is fun.

So this car isn't real exciting in the the 1/4 right now, but I am hoping to get it there.

 

[mavisky]

well you're much better off than my nt was if you're already at 16.1

i'd ditch the power chip, 99% of those don't do shit, plus you need to re-burn them each time you change something. look into an s-adc for around $250 used. alot better deal and its almost single handedly killed the import "chip" market.

 

[Bohica]

Thanks for the info.

What exactly is an s-adc? I have never heard of that.

Thanks again

 

[mavisky]

s-afc, got typing too quickly

it's made by apex'i

 

[special_K86]

with the s-afc, how much can you mess with it and how much hp could you possibly get?

 

[Bohica]

Originally posted by mavisky
well you're much better off than my nt was if you're already at 16.1

Just out of curiosity, what did you run with your 1st Gen N/A Eclipse stock?

(BTW, it was 16.2....no biggie)

 

[stalkerdsm]

your future plans seem impossible with a limit of 1,000...

your only gonna run like mid to high 15s if that with those mods...

 

[Bohica]

Well, like I mentioned above, I have ran 16.2 already. I'm pretty positive that is about the best I can squeeze out of it. Maybe a better driver could do better. But I made a few runs with it, and I felt good about that one.

I think that if I can slightly increase the acceleration off the line, then I should be able to drop into the high 15's.

I plan on cutting about 350-450 pounds off of the car. The rule of thumb that I have been raised on is "20 pounds = 1% hp increase".

I realize that this isn't an exact science, but from my experience, it is pretty close. I have dyno'd my car at 132 hp. So 1% of my hp would be 1.32 hp. So if I shed 350 lbs., then it would be about the equivilent of adding 23.1 hp. So that would make my car act like a 155 hp car.

I sincerely believe that if I had another 23.1 hp (17.5% hp increase) I should have no problem shaving about 2 or 3 tenths off of my time. So that would put me in the high 15's alone.

Then I am going to weld the motor to the motor mounts to keep it from rocking and losing torque. That should help off the line and may shave another tenth or so.

I am either going to put a bypass on my exhause to run an open header, or I am going to gut the cat. This should help a little

I am going to stiffen the rear suspension to keep the car from rocking backward and losing torque on takeoff. I think this combined with the Exhaust mod, it should shave a tenth or two.

I am taking out the AC and getting a belt that is for a non-AC car so there will be less drag on the engine. This should help it spool up faster.

I think with these modifications, I should be in the mid to low 15's easily. And these are just the mods that cost $0. So after I get to this point, I still have $1,000 to spend on intake, internal motor mods, pulleys, fuel cell to relocate under the hood for more traction, etc.

I don't think I will have a problem getting into the 15's. If You can't shave 3 tenths of a second on a stock car's time with $1,000, then you aren't spending your money very wisely.

Just my opinion of course. Only time will tell for sure. I respectfully disagree with you.

 

[stalkerdsm]

not being an idiot or anything but why make a thread when you seem like you know it all??

i mean you got all the answers, you got the math down, the whole conversion from weight to hp..so whats the prob?? you got it already..

 

[Bohica]

Well, I have a somewhat moderate knowledge of cars, and I have a pretty decent understanding of how they work. But I don't do it as a living, and this isn't even my main hobby. So I am sure that 90% of the people on this board have a better knowledge of cars.

And of the knowledge that I DO have, it is mostly for big block, RWD type cars, or trucks. I am just now trying to dip into the 4 banger, FWD scene. From what I have read, there is a really big difference in the weight distribution, suspension setup, and engine mods. So that is where I am asking for help.

From my above post, I have stated that I think I can get down into the mid to low 15's. I believe I can do that with what I know now, about these cars. But my GOAL is to be in the mid to low 14's. So I am trying to lay out what I know, and see if you guys have anything to add.

If you're not interested in helping me out, then that's cool. I can move on to someone else. The reason I am here is because I made the same post on another forum, and the responses I got were like this:

"Get a REAL engine"

"Set up a force feed rice system"

"why modify this car? Why not use it for it's intended purpose? (transportation)"

So I looked for a place that specializes in these cars, and I found this place. And when I came here, I expected to see alot of guys that really know about these cars, and guys that have made their cars legitimately fast. But instead, I am getting responses like:

"It's impossible to get these cars under 15 seconds"

"I doubt you will be able to break 16 seconds"

etc.

I thought you guys on this board SPECIALIZED in these cars? And no one has broke 15 seconds? No one has any ideas to upgrade the car?

When I set a budget of $1,000 I thought that might be too low, and I would run out of money. But now that I look into it, I am going to have money LEFT. No one can tell me anything to bolt on to this car to increase it's performance?

The only suggestion I have had is the s-afc (and I appreciate that one). But I searched and found the under drive pulley and intake on my own. So I still have a few hundred dollars left. Their has got to be something I can buy with a few hundred dollars to increase the car. Some modification I can do to the motor, etc.

?????????

I am getting kind of discouraged with the lack of upgrades for this car. I am on the verge of doing something drastic.

If I can't get this car where I want it, I am either going to buy a trailer and strip this car down to it's bare bones and trailer it out to the track, so it will be light enough to go fast.

Or I am going to find another beater like mine, up the budget to $2,000 and Drop a second engine and tranny in the rear of the car. So I would just have to independent engine and tranny systems. That should make the car fast enough for me.

Please help me out. I am coming to you guys because you are the "go to " guys on DSM cars. There has got to be some way to make this car fast.

Just forget I mentioned a budget. I will find a way to fit it in the budget. Tell me anyway to make a FAST N/A Eclipse with the engine that I have. Does anyone know how to do that?

(It actually doesn't even have to be "fast". I just want to get into the 14's)

I know it's possible because I have seen a guy at the track that has a stripped out neon non-turbo (probably with NOS) that runs high 12's. I am going to get some tips from him the next time I see him. But the last time I saw him I wasn't really interested in the details.

 

[Rhino]

Go to vfaq.com and read into hacking your MAF sensor.But don't just go and do it and make the same mistake alot of us have.Read carefully and take your time,and do it right or else your car will run like crap.This "free mod" should eliminate some restriction of airflow to your throttle body and it'll sound mean as hell..Just read first and do it carefully..Hope this helps

 

[special_K86]

Try going w/ the jeep throttle body. I haven't done it myself, but from what i've read it can take off a tenth or two. I'm not sure about that, but its worth a try.- Kevin

 

[mavisky]

jeep mod only works on 2g's.

bohica if you know anything about building up old muscle cars or whatever just apply the same knowledge here. an engine is an engine, is an engine. ours just have fewer cylinders and the camshaft is on top and there's two of them.

the bottom line is that there isn't much available for the 1st generation nt's. that's why mine has a turbo engine in it now.

one thing to remember though is that if you have the 2.0 nt engine (at 16.2 i'm assuming you do) then its almost identical to the 2.0 turbo so alot of the parts that can bolt onto it such as cams and intake manifolds can also be applied to your car.

the biggest problem staring you right in the face is that $1000 budget. that thing is going to kick your ass one way or another. your best bet would be to jack that limit to maybe 1500 and get a set of cams and nitrous. that'll get you your best bang for the buck.

on small engines its very hard to make lots of power for cheap. unless you go forced induction or the nitrous route. and remember if you can't afford find a way to make your own.

your goals of mid 15's should be attainable na, but to get into the 14's you're going to need to spend alot more money or go with nitrous. after i turbo'ed my car (full gst engine) i was able to finally crank off a 14 on 16 psi (14.5 @ 103.7) with a full interior. stripped it was begging to run 13's but i had some other tuning issues arise at the last minute that kept me from them. bottom line is that if you can get your car into the mid 15's on a full interior. you might possibly be able to squeak out a 14.9999 gutted to hell and back.

oh and if you want to ditch the ac. its run off its own separate belt. just remove the belt completely, and unbolt all a/c stuff to get it out.

i understand that you'd like to "prove them wrong" i was in the same shoes at one time. but after pricing out a quick nt engine as compared to installing a turbo engine i walked away from the nt dream. it just costs way too much money for the returns you get from it. there's a reason the top of the line dsm's were turbo'ed, they needed it to get their fat asses down the track. in this situation you simply bought the wrong car (so did i) and now you're stuck trying to make it fast on a budget (won't happen w/o nitrous).

good luck, and check back in with us on its progress.

 

[Bohica]

Thanks guys, that was very helpful.

I was kind of thinking about the nitrous route, but I wasn't sure what I would need to reinforce to do it safely.

I have ran a 50 shot on my camaro before, but that engine was pretty ready for it from the factory. I would think that a 50 shot into this stock engine, would be shoving 20 lbs. of crap in a 5 lb. bag.

So if I go the nitrous route, I will just want to look out for the cams? Is there anything else I should watch for?

Thanks again for the help.

 

[wicked93GS]

well, first off, I would'nt weld the motor mounts, thats a bit drastic, jsut fill them with JB weld or something, might not be quite as effective, but at least you could still pull the motor if you had to without having to break welds, definately get a set of turbo cams, everyone agress that that is an upgrade, make your own cold air intake from some mandrel bent 3" piping, upgrade to a custom built 3" exhaust(build it yourself out of mandrel bent curves or go to your muffler shop, you should be able to get a away with one for a little over 200(you'll lose some bottom end torque this way, but gain more upper RPM HP, but losing bottom end torque will actually be helpful in your application, you wont get as much wheelspin)) you can remove both the front and rear bumper supports, they weigh like 30 lbs each, ditch the ac, ditch the power steering pump, now I'm not saying these will get you into the 14s, but since everyone else just wanted to say oh you cant do it and not even give any suggestions, I thought I would try, when you make your custom air intake, extend it all the way to one of the bumper holes and make it ram air, then you might be able to cut an extra 1/10th off, to do this though, you'll have to extend the MAF sensor wiring, after that port your exhaust manifold yourself if you have a die grinder, headers dont flow any better than a ported exhaust manifold anyway unless they cost like 500 dollars, then its down to nitrous, I've heard that our cars can handle up to a 75 shot....but I dont and wont run nitrous anyway, so I cant say, you can get an underdrive pulley(selling on ebay for 75 or so right now, says turbo only, but its the same 4g63 engine as the 2.0 NT) if your willing to do engine work, you can remove the balance safts for free, theres a VFAQ on it, get new plugs and wires, not neccesarily perfomance ones, just new ones, I guess an SAFC would be a good investment too, I think all that stays below 1000 except for the nitrous(you can always tap an extra injector into the intake to deal with the nitrous) but theres a few suggestions anyway

 

[Ken]

If going nitrous use a wet shot that mixes the N2O and fule when it's sprayed into the system, they cost a bit more but are safer on the engine. If you can find a good machine shop you can pul the engine apart yourself, have the head and intke manifold mildly ported, and shave the head slightly to increase the compression ratio. I'm sure with enough work you can run 14s in this car, you may exceed your $1000 budget but if you drag the project out you can make it pretty fast for $1000 and then get to the rest of your goal as more$$ becomes available.

 

[mavisky]

i would not go with a 3" exhaust. while it works great for turbo cars it'll rob all your bcackpressure and you'll actually lose overall power in a sacrifice for a small gain way up top. on turbo cars the turbo provides all the back pressure that engine will ever need, but the nt engines only get that back pressure from the exhaust.

another thing to do if you have the time and tools is to go ahead and portmatch both your intake manifold and exhaust manifold.

 

[Bohica]

cool, those aer some very helpful ideas.

two more questions (for now)

What times do most 1st gen N/A cars run stock?


And would it be beneficial to run an open header, or no? I noticed that you mentioned there is a problem with a lack of backpressure. Would this be the case if I ran an open header?


(if I do an open header, I will weld in a bypass pipe that I can open or close so I can drive to the track and take the cover plates off and let it scream)

 

[mavisky]

my nt talon ran a 16.3 @ 83.5 with a K&N, pacesetter header, gutted cat, and pacesetter catback. but it was a really hot day and the first time i'd ever raced it. looking back on it i should've been short shifting it by a few hundred rpm.

 

[wicked93GS]

true, I didnt know that 3" would rob almost all the powerband(just thought it would be low end), anyway, you can get a phantom grip LSD to help with the launches, if its going to be a track car mainly though get rid of the cat altogether and go with a test pipe(speaking of which, mavisky, mustangs have mil eliminators so when they run an x pipe or an h pipe without cats they wont get the CEL, is there something like that for DSMs, or that could be adapted to them for the test pipe?) beyond that, I cant think of too much more, except for cam gears and they have outrageous prices, although I guess you dont technically need them to advance timing it would a PITA having to keep messing with the timing belt, next step would be the forced induction, oh and of course the obvious, use race gas, but thats it short of higher compression pistons or maybe a stroker kit(if they even make them for 4g63s, which I find doubtful) I think you can get it into the 14s, after all, if a DOHC neon can get into the 14s for under 1000, you should be able to as well, maybe not for so cheap though, keep us updated on how it goes and what speeds, I was kinda toying with the idea of NA, in one car and turbo in my other

 

[mavisky]

1g dsm's don't have a second o2 sensor. the stock sensor is right up in the manifold. i run a test pipe all day every day.

you could also pick up a 4g64 stroker kit or full block but then we're talking real money.

 

[not2fast]

for the 4g63 engine you can take the crank rods and pistons out off a 4g64 (the 2.4 outta a spyder or mini van) this is the budget stroker kit. the other stroker kit avalible for your engine comes from ffwdconnections.com, ir's not cheap but it is good. it strokes your car engine to a 2.3. another options for increasing your compression is to get a .010 to .020 copper head gasket for your car. it bumps compression .5:1, its not much but it helps. poor mans trick on your car is to put a 160 degree termostat in, it keeps your engine right at the line between cold curcuit and normal ops curcuit causing your engine to run just a hair rich ( great combination w/nitrous). you can aso take your t.b. and remove the neckdown infront of your throttle plate (venturi), knife edge your butterfly and thin down your throttle plate shaft. ifyou need more little sh!t to do to your car, sh!t that takes time not alot of money, p.m. me.

 

[Bohica]

Okay, I have three more questions.

1. Do you think it would be beneficial to run an open header, or would it actually hurt performance?

2. Does anyone know how these cars perform without power steering? Someone recommended to remove the power steering, but I am wondering if I will still be able to drive it. I know that without power steering, my camaro is pretty much dead in the water. It would take the incredible hulk to turn the wheel.

3. I know that in other cars, people run higher temp thermostats. Would that help in this car, and if so, which one do you guys use?

thanks