420A Bolt-on TechIntake, exhaust, ignition, fuel system, cooling, etc - specific to 2G N/T DSMs. New Members must limit their 420A tech posts to this forum.
OK, I've searched the forum for 30min looking for Plug and play style ecu programers. For modding the stock ecu.. I'm not willing to invest 1200 in a pecu quite yet, esp if you can re-program the very same things without the newer more expensive aftermarket versions...
I have a 95 n/t talon. And have replaced the old fried modded ecu i had when i bought the car. And i miss being able to go over 9k rpm if i need to. And the fuel cutoff is quite annoying when i'm trying to outrun a 350hp mustange gt with magna flow exhaust =/
its strong up to 4k and fades up to 7.2.. sometimes cutting off at 6.8k shifting into a higher gear or skipping gears no longer gives more speed, but feels lathargic. Like the ecu knows your doing it and just says nope... i'm not doing that.. no way.. even at 7k, mashing the gas in 5th below 80 does nothing.. so first third 5th shifts just dont work right now.
where the old modded cpu was strong up to 4k and even stronger after that.. sometimes spinning wheels through 3rd into fourth. even at speeds of 60-80mph. if i dumped it. I really miss this.. I still have the old ecu, but the voltage regulater is fried in it.. so i would need to have a stand alone v-regulater if i hooked this up again. I haven't found a stand alone unit that can handle 190-250amps the alternator cranks out.. the car was alot stronger when it had that configure ation installed.. but the v-reg would constantly cook itself.
I've also made several mod to the air intake. added an intercooler and breather to where there used to be a pcv valve. resulting in continuos airflow to the intake. And about -5 to
-15 mpg from this. and a good ammount of torque and hp gain. It feels as though the ecu has retarded the timing even more to compensate for those changes as well.
My project is themed more air more mpg.. I'm attempting to use more air then fuel maybe 14:1 since I know that u can have a more powerful explosion if only u had enough air to fuel it. the most i've had was 60mpg. now i'm at 28-40.
I've noticed several plug and play ecu programers for trucks. no laptop required or some fancy knowledge of complex settings..
I was wondering if anyone knew what would work with this car. If there are any simply PNP modifiers. and not just loggers.
I've removed the power steering and am looking for someone to safely discharge the a/c system to also be removed.. There is a load sensor hook up there, anything going to the a/c or powersteering has been disconnected. So i'm guessing the ecu is no longer getting a load reading, and probably just going ok, constant load.. add as much fuel as u can...
on top of adding more fuel becuase of the more and constant airflow its now getting..
the check engine light is also constant except for one time after filling the radiator.. i'm sure i got a few connections wet... the light turned off. I can get pics if needed.. of wires that are not hooked up.. and possiby hopefully someone can suggest a way to jump them or hook them up to something to get the check engine light to turn off..
this is something i saw on the shelf at advance auto.. and is something along the lines of something i want for this car.. data logger, dyno?, programer. on the fly. but its meant for trucks... Bully Dog PMT Performance Management Tool
This is something really close to what i'm loking for minimaly.. plug and play and simple but again meant for trucks. i wish i could get 180 more lbs of torque =P i probably can tho.. Diablo Power Puck, DiabloSport PowerPuck Control Module
Anything under $1200 and doesnt require me to build or purchase another $1200 laptop just to make changes..
OK, I've searched the forum for 30min looking for Plug and play style ecu programers. For modding the stock ecu.. I'm not willing to invest 1200 in a pecu quite yet, esp if you can re-program the very same things without the newer more expensive aftermarket versions...
I have a 95 n/t talon. And have replaced the old fried modded ecu i had when i bought the car. And i miss being able to go over 9k rpm if i need to. And the fuel cutoff is quite annoying when i'm trying to outrun a 350hp mustange gt with magna flow exhaust =/
its strong up to 4k and fades up to 7.2.. sometimes cutting off at 6.8k shifting into a higher gear or skipping gears no longer gives more speed, but feels lathargic. Like the ecu knows your doing it and just says nope... i'm not doing that.. no way.. even at 7k, mashing the gas in 5th below 80 does nothing.. so first third 5th shifts just dont work right now.
where the old modded cpu was strong up to 4k and even stronger after that.. sometimes spinning wheels through 3rd into fourth. even at speeds of 60-80mph. if i dumped it. I really miss this.. I still have the old ecu, but the voltage regulater is fried in it.. so i would need to have a stand alone v-regulater if i hooked this up again. I haven't found a stand alone unit that can handle 190-250amps the alternator cranks out.. the car was alot stronger when it had that configure ation installed.. but the v-reg would constantly cook itself.
I've also made several mod to the air intake. added an intercooler and breather to where there used to be a pcv valve. resulting in continuos airflow to the intake. And about -5 to
-15 mpg from this. and a good ammount of torque and hp gain. It feels as though the ecu has retarded the timing even more to compensate for those changes as well.
***REALLY LONG POST EDITED OUT***.
Ok, first of all the only modable ECU was the 97. Second are you turbo, because if you aren't then there is no way you are accomplishing some of the stuff in this thread "sometimes spinning wheels through 3rd into fourth. even at speeds of 60-80mph. if i dumped it.". 2gnt's come with ~140 crank hp and currently the highest whp N/A 2gnt is only at 204 whp and I ndoubt even he can accomplish spinning the tires at 60+. I also ask because you said you have an intercooler. If you aren't turbo then there is no need for an intercooler and if anything it probably hurts performance. Third there is no way you have reached 60mpg. I am willing to bet you have reached 35 mpg max if you never went over 3k rpms.
There is no PnP ECu programmer for the 2gnt ECU, but a PnP stand alone is in the alpha testing phases right now. It is going to require a laptop to tune and is not available for purchase yet as far as I know. Expect to pay somewhere around $700+ for this.
To be honest I wasn't sure if this thread was a joke or not, but I answered it anyways. If this is indeed a serious post then you need to do a lot of learning before you start modding or continuing to attempt at modding. You come across as someone who has done some research but may not fully understand what they have read. I say this because you talk about loss of power from retarded timing, afr, removing parasitic loss from P/S and A/C, etc... Just make sure you understand what you are reading correctly before you move on with this.
Ok, first of all the only modable ECU was the 97. Second are you turbo, because if you aren't then there is no way you are accomplishing some of the stuff in this thread "sometimes spinning wheels through 3rd into fourth. even at speeds of 60-80mph. if i dumped it.". 2gnt's come with ~140 crank hp and currently the highest whp N/A 2gnt is only at 204 whp and I ndoubt even he can accomplish spinning the tires at 60+. I also ask because you said you have an intercooler. If you aren't turbo then there is no need for an intercooler and if anything it probably hurts performance. Third there is no way you have reached 60mpg. I am willing to bet you have reached 35 mpg max if you never went over 3k rpms.
There is no PnP ECu programmer for the 2gnt ECU, but a PnP stand alone is in the alpha testing phases right now. It is going to require a laptop to tune and is not available for purchase yet as far as I know. Expect to pay somewhere around $700+ for this.
To be honest I wasn't sure if this thread was a joke or not, but I answered it anyways. If this is indeed a serious post then you need to do a lot of learning before you start modding or continuing to attempt at modding. You come across as someone who has done some research but may not fully understand what they have read. I say this because you talk about loss of power from retarded timing, afr, removing parasitic loss from P/S and A/C, etc... Just make sure you understand what you are reading correctly before you move on with this.
First, thank you! =D well the talons fare better then the 95? 420neons which in some dynos i've seen barely made 100whp.. i think the only thing diffrent is oil routeing and cams, better flowing intake and exhaust...ecu settings? injectoers...alot probably. compression ratio.. I wanna get ahold of the srt-4 cylinder.. and see how much and what improves.. i have yet to se dynos specific to this mod. for this engine. And i did a 1st 3rd 5th and a 2nd 3rd 5th run today to 80.. and coming from second is completely diffrent. As speed seems to help more then rpms here.. i got to 65 in 2nd before 6k.. hey can't i calculate "theroretical" hp from this??
I'm not only reading new ideas, but testing things i have personal experience with for over 3 yrs now, i started with a 93 integra.. but after being away from home for 2 yrs. and Nobody ever listening.. my brother thouroughly screwed that car up as well as several of my friends.. i had 3 keys and gave each of them one when i bought the car...i was 16.. and thought i could trust them.. on top of many thing, my bro put oil in the auto tranny.. well thats a whole other story and it still pisses me off..
the talon..
well, ok if the 90's and up to 96 were not moddable, then how could the dealership make changes to the ecu..? remove fuel cut offs, rev limits and adjust fuel maps..advance and retard timing, adjust the range of that timing..? you can change the settings.. or it is moddable.. Or they actually use a diffrent ecu..from a compatable model??? I'm iffy about piggy-back or in-line mods.. which may be what you mean by modifying...and would use these as a last resort if i can not change the settings through the ecu/PCM itself.
spinning wheels...
I've seen 500+whp do this many times.. it amazes me as well. And without video i have no way of confirming this for others...and care not if they believe me or not, And have yet to be able to repeat it.. the wheels stop between gears and usualy it doesnt keep going into 3rd.. I am not one to street race.. or do anything like this on the streets.. I just wanted to know if it would do it.. And i felt it was a good straight to try it.. now i make sure to fade in and use care with the throttle =) even with an un-tuned reman- ecu...But is something I would like to be able to do again..
intercooler- It is a common belief that intercoolers have no place on n/a vehicles.. i think people think this because it doesn't have the internal air velocity that turbos do to effectively cool the air.. and some are so large that it slows the air down and robs performance in n/a vehicles.. effectivly an oversized plenom.. curiously having 550cf per min of airspace usually helps anyway.. n/a or turbo.. but because of its positioning it only adds drag and doesnt act as a plenum in either n/a or turbo. but boost pushes past that, and the exhaust side helps cancel out the drag created on the intake side.. given free flow exhaust systems..
now what if u used smaller diameter tubing...attached it to where the pcv-valve went. put a breather on the intake side of the cam cover.. ran the exit side of the cams pvc through a filter then through an oil or transmission cooler..-smaller diameter- maintaints the higher velocity airflow. the filter is to keep it clean and add restriction to keep the idle where it needs to be, untill i can get a TB of sorts.. And then from the intercooler to the intake-man.
what are the results so far? well before the manifold temps would get above 160*f after the engine warmed up...even with cold air intake. the heat seems to transfer from the block. And the egr adds heat as well.. before i blocked it intake temps in the manifold were 200+ f. now the temps run from 70-100. and stayed at 100 while the car was running even in 110 heat index during our last summer stopped and idleing. On cold nights the power is so great i've felt my eyeballs stick to the back of their sockets.. and the tunnel effect of a good ammount of g's was finally felt and seen. But so far this is variable and depends on many conditions. And I think my cat is clogged....and will be buying a larger filter to put inplace of the inline fuel filter that is on the inlet side of the intercooler.
My goal was just to lower the intake temps. And hopefully increase MPG because of this. But as stated previously i've lost the 60mpg even if i redlined a few times..I got a lil over 160 miles from 2 ga of gas. And i assume it used 3.. even then thats more then 60mpg... before this install, now i get 80 to 100. I ran till it stalls and wont start then add 3 gallons.. the last gallon is usually un usuable and the car sputters and stalls trying to use it.. And i'm wondering how I lost the mpg and due to what...To help solve this and maybe get more mpg I need to know what the ecu is trying to do with the extra,colder, constant air flow. And try diffrent seting for mpg and power gains.. on top of that I did install the 400watt lighting at about the same time.. so both of these are a contributing factor to now having 32-40mpg. even stop and go.. sometimes during aggressive driveing i get 22mpg.. acceptable for now.
At highway speeds temps have gone below 50*f and since winter has come performance has also increased.. torque is felt from 1k to the 7.2 cutoff hot or cold, of the re-man ecu.. and no longer hesitates between 3k-5k. just the breather alone decreased this as well. but with intercooler there is no loss in power that i can feel. throughout the rpms from 1k-7.2...
I very much wish to dyno my current setup and tune it as well.. there is definate increase in hp and torque. I really need the numbers to verify this. So a logger with virtual dyno is on my wish list.. but would really like something i can tune with on my own.. it's probably gonna take some time to learn how to change what when, and how to get the computer to do that when it needs too... and get the best setting i think works...save them.. then dyno and tune. and compare notes =)
Also indexing the quad platium plugs, has given some slight gains in power and mpg. by grounding the exhaust, at no point does the exhaust system make an electrical ground, due to the mounts being rubber...So i have a wire bolted to the chassis from the headers, which is rated past 140k volts..and 200*c I could also try actualy indexing them. but thats futile as the plume expands in 4 directions and down anyway.. I have yet to see by voltimeter if any current is actually passing through the wires.. The first set i tried tho certainly fried.. and the headers were not hot.. So that suggests a good amount of current passes through it.. or running it from the headers to the neg. chassis ground for the battery was a bad idea...
Can I have your dealers number? Really, I think everything you have mentioned except for indexing your plugs is complete nonsense. I suggest that you stop doing crack...it will kill you someday.
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Kurt - E85, 450's, China GT, AWD conversion
I have to re-read everything posted above before I can make additional comments on it.. I'm still not sure if this is a joke or not to be honest but I'm reserving judgement.
You come across as someone who has an idea what they are talking about, but to me the execution just seems off. Is there anyone else who wants to tackle this one?
yea, i'll get some pics.. The way i put it down i dont think anyone could peice it together logically..
A friend gave me a battery cable, for the indexing.. it seems to be a bit better.. a lil stronger.. we'll see how it holds out tho.. I need a few more pieces so it makes a better connection tho..
Thats the thing this is a concept. Prototype, etc. It hasn't been proven to do anything..
Just trying to get as close to 200hp and 60mpg as i can. I've read that the cams, and coil on n/t's can do this by themselves..taller? more duration, then turbo?? If after all these mods i do, I'm not near or at 200hp, then when i get cams, I should easily make that or more.. but i still need to do tuning.. I made a 40-60mph in 2nd gear video. Just to get a time refrence and to hear it in my headphones etc.. I think it sucked, i had a buncha stuff in the car.. probably 120 additional lbs plus me.. but i'll get it uploaded soon to share...
Running it wide open no filter to intercooler was steady 2k rpm and ate fuel.. this was meant to help save fuel, by keeping the intake cooler, denser.. I was also hopeing to add a spin to the intake manifold by going through the pvc pipeing on the manifold.. the egr tube is next to get a filter.. I just have to clean out the new tube i got. cut it and fit a filter..
:ics:: =)
Oil cooler with the fuels filter in> flow. mounted in front of drivers side wheel.
notice no pvc valve. I don't like burning oil, and sludge in my intake..
6x5 into 4" adapter. open tip. stock air pipe. maybe 3 1/2 " full steel mesh
The orange breather from the intake to the cam cover. and heat shielded line from the oil cooler.
I've seen 500+whp do this many times.. it amazes me as well. And without video i have no way of confirming this for others...and care not if they believe me or not, And have yet to be able to repeat it.. the wheels stop between gears and usualy it doesnt keep going into 3rd.. I am not one to street race.. or do anything like this on the streets.. I just wanted to know if it would do it.. And i felt it was a good straight to try it.. now i make sure to fade in and use care with the throttle =) even with an un-tuned reman- ecu...But is something I would like to be able to do again..
What the hell? You said 500+WHP car has done this many times... but you're comparing this to your car which barely pushes 100WHP?? We know how wheel spinouts btwn gears works, it looks like you were asking how you could do it, so why are you comparing it to a 500whp car? OF COURSE THEY CAN DO IT!
I've read through your posts a few times and it just seems a bit ridiculous... not knocking on your innovative thinking, but your irrational conclusions that are based entirely off of theories!
You've read cams and coils could provide you the right route to give you 200hp?! Where did you read this? Just because you read it doesn't make it true. Like we said, talk to Mark (bulletdsm) he'll explain to you that busting out 200hp is not a simple plug and play affair. He did A LOT more than just buy coils and cams.
I am REALLY curious about where you are doing your research because it is not so much your knowledge that is making you looks stupid, it's your lack of sources.
Show me a healthy 350hp mustang lose to an almost stock dsm NT and I will happily tip my hat to you... But PLEASE DO US AND YOURSELF A FAVOR AND DO MORE RESEARCH BEFORE RANTING ABOUT ALL THIS THEORIES.
And you're not really making it clear, What are those videos for? Time referrence for what?! Are you trying to show us your fuel cut-off?
I don't want to take a turn to negative sides just a more clear explanation on what your talking about, NOT PROOF just SOURCES. At least to spark our interests instead of just preparing to bash...
Your videos have shown that it takes your car about the same amount of time to get from 40-60 as a stock turbo DSM will go from 0-60, give or take a second or so.
You can calculate gear ratio from engine RPM vs. vehicle speed, but HP is based on the amount of time to get to that speed, and will also require that you know the weight of the vehicle and the amount of air resistance you're pushing against. So, no, you can't know your hp based on your speed in a given RPM.
I would recheck how you measure your gas mileage. Otherwise, enter your car into the fuel mileage X prize. 22 is normal, 30 is not out of the question, anything too far above that and you're measuring it wrong, or you've really got something with your breathers going on all up in that engine bay.
The reason an intercooler does not work on a N/A engine is because there is no significant amount of heat put into the intake charge like on a turbo engine. The turbocharger compresses the air and adds heat, that does not happen in a N/A engine. It does not matter how many hoses you hook to it of any size or where they go. What you have is a cold air intake, which has been shown to add power for both turbo and N/A. This is an intercooler http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/atta...off_1_420a.jpg
the big aluminum thing on the front of the car. If you put one on your car and you don't have a turbocharger you will go SLOWER, no if and or buts.
I could imagine getting the tires to chirp at somewhere near 60mph if you have total crap tires and you absolutely dumped the clutch. Especially in the rain! I had an '89 plymouth horizon with 300k miles that I could make smoke the tires all the way up to 45mph with enough persuasion. That was on dry pavement with just enough tread to keep the tires from technically being "slicks". Due to the weight transfer of FWD vehicles, getting the tires to break loose is not a big deal. My ex's 3 cylinder geo could keep the tires spinning all the way through 1st gear. I could also imagine you doing a burnout and having the speedo read out 60mph. Which means you're going fairly slow, but the tires are spinning very fast.
#1, the '90-94 computers are completely different from your car. #2 the only factory DSM 420a ECUs that can be modified are the '97s like was explained to you. Dealerships didn't do changes to the spark or fuel tuning. Aftermarket companies and home tuners physically removed the stock binaries of the 4G63 computers and replaced them with custom code. Which doesn't even matter because you've got a 420a! The only real solution for those is a SAFC or a MS.
Did you miss the part where 99redGS told you that the highest HP 420a DSM has about 200whp? Again, no, the stock cams aren't going to get you there, and aftermarket cams aren't going to get you there "and some more". A turbo can, but if I were you I'd start with the fundamentals before trying all the things that other people don't do.
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Tom - '90 Talon on blocks!
ics:: =)
