I beat Satan

[Jason]

I changed my oil on Saturday and noticed a little oil around the bell housing. I instantly thought rear seal. I take it to Satan (dealership) and they tell me it was the head gasket leaking and that it would be covered under my warranty. Then the guy asked me if I had ever changed the timing belt. I said No I have not. He say's well since it's gotta come off anyway I'll just charge you for the belt if you wanna replace it. I say sure let's do that. with my deductable and the belt it's only going to cost me $240 when just the belt was going to be around $500 by itself. I just though I would share my success story.

peace out

 

[98TalonESI]

Good job. i beat satan too. i have an automatic talon and its shifting really funny i took it to the dealership twice in 2 months and they claim that had no idea what the problem was and they couldnt find it. so they sent it to a tranny shop. the guys calls me and tells me that the converter is shot, seals are bad and there are metal shavings in the tranny. before the shop found this problem the manager called the shop and told them to fix what ever needed done haha. so they got the shaft.

 

[Doug99RS]

J,
The guy does you a favor by putting a part on that he doesn't have to, while doing a labor that he's gonna lose his ass on and you're gonna call them satan still...?

Call them satan when they stick it to you. But don't insult them when they don't deserve it.

 

[Jason]

he didn't loose his ass on labor. he charged the extended warranty people almost $1000 for the head gasket replacement. if anything he made out like a bandit. looks like we can call them satan after all. true he was nice enough to offer to do the timing belt and other belts while they were off anyway and could easily be replaced, but i still payed dealer prices for those belts...

 

[96esi]

Originally posted by Doug99RS

Call them satan when they stick it to you. But don't insult them when they don't deserve it.

But this is just a rare instance of them being good.

If Mother Theresa dropped ass, well, she's still Mother Theresa

 

[98TalonESI]

i know they are satan . i have had a broken door handle for a month now and it was supposed to be in a week after i broke it. then since the sunday before last sunday my car has been in the trany shop and while it was there "the door handle was to be put on" the tranny shop gave them the car back last sat and it was to be on today. the guy told me last week they had it and would put it on well we call today and they dont even have it. so that is satan and they also charges me 175 for a piece of plastic that will most likely break again. so i hope the like the nice $ 1400 bill the tranny shop gave them!!

 

[ytwithsi]

Doug99rs, I think we all have more of a reason to call them satan then not. I mean think about it what happens more, they do us a nice little $200 favor or we pay them $2000 for something that shouldnt have gone wrong in the first place. I mean if the guy wrote in hey the mitsu dealer gave me a new motor for free, what a di(k, then i would understand, but that dealership didnt even feel that favor.

 

[Doug99RS]

If you had my perspective then you'd at least see that the generalization is unfair. Since you I'll elaborate since most people don't have a clue how the dealership actually works. This is a defense for the good dealerships out there. I am not in any way justifying the actions of people who take advantage of customers or mislead them in to buying crap they don't need. If anything this would be one dealership tech trying to say we're not all like that.

First off nearly every single post complaining about an encounter with a dealership lays the blame for the part that failed on the dealership itself. They don't take in to the fact that the car manufacturer used a component, engineered and designed by yet another company, that met certain standards. These standards included price, quality and effectiveness in doing the job. When you blame a product for failing... blame the company that made the part or yourself for buying a car that was a compromise between quality and price.

Next the Dealership is a subcontractor of the manufacturer. We have little flexibility in warranty issues because since you're not paying for it... Chrysler/Mitsu is. They are the ones to say whether or not it is to be rebuilt, patched up, replaced or bought back. The dealership DOES have some say in certain circumstances where the repair is slightly out of warranty. If the complaint has been brought to a dealer's attention while the car was still under warranty, if the customer has consistent service history with the dealership and if the dealership is aware of similar problems on other cars even if there is no previous complaints about that specific car. But the bottom line is that every time the dealership helps out a customer the manufacturer wants to know why we went beyond the basic warranty to cover that failed part. If we gave away alot more warranty work to those who are out of the basic warranty, then we would be put on restriction, by the manufacturer, in that particular type of repair. Meaning we would not be able to fix other cars that ARE under warranty and deserve to have it fix 100% as soon as possible.

Some people are going to complain about the price of a new car or a new part. I can bring good points to both sides of the argument because I have seen a prime example of the manufacturer sticking us, the dealership, as well as the customer. I can also explain why things are so much. When you buy a new car you're paying for the car plus an insurance policy. That insurance policy is for 3 years or 36,000 (depending on manufacturer and other warranties available). When it runs out... that's all you've paid for, it's time to get off the ride. If you want to be covered longer, buy a service contract that can go up to 100,000 miles. That's your option and right as a customer to buy extra insurance. That's another reason why cars are more expensive while still under warranty. They have an insurance policy attatched to them. Furthermore, that insurance policy covers nearly everything from bumper to bumper. If a fifty cent trim panel retainer breaks... it's replaced labor and parts at no charge. If a $6,000 motor blows up.... you get a new one at no charge. It's call insurance. You pay extra IN CASE something happens. It's that simple. Everyone pays up $X in case it breaks and those who break down, the money goes to those who did. If you could buy a car without warranty they'd be dirt cheap. But that will never happen so what can you do.

To give you an idea how parts works... we buy parts from Mopar. If the part gets put on under warranty, the price is cost plus a little more because Chrysler doesn't pay full price. If it goes on as customer pay, you pay normal retail value. So there's not alot of profit in warranty parts as it is.

On the flip side of that coin is the manufacturer sticking it to us as well as the customers. Three points in case. Two recalls and one blown engine with 13 miles on it. One fuel rail leak on 93-98 New Yorkers, LHS, Intrepid body style. Requires reinforcement or replacement of fuel rail because they would break and cause fuel leaks or even engine fires. Cost vs quality there for those already pointing fingers. Now... before the recall came out we found injector o-rings to also be leaking. Replaced all the injector o-rings and the labor was somewhere in the ball-park of 4 hours labor and a package of injector o-rings that cost $90. This recall comes out and they add in the injector o-rings... Parts cost for the o-ring package now? $10.00. That's right. Chrysler has to pay for the part and so they knock down the price.

Next is the 96-00 body style minivan. Clocksprings go bad in them. They are the component behind the steering wheel that allows you to turn the wheel from stop to stop and the wiring for your horn, air bag, cruise, and radio controls still don't bind up and break. Previous labor time to diagnose and replace under warranty.... 1.1 hours. The recall comes out and it's down to 0.5 or 0.6 hours depending on vehicle. So The manufacturer is sticking it to the dealer when they have to pay for the parts... and the customers that already paid to have a problem fixed could have paid 1/9 the cost if the problem had happened a few months later.

The final point on the manufacturer sticking the dealership happened to me when I first started working at a dealership. I was test driving a new jeep grand cherokee with the new 4.7L v8 in it. 13 miles on it and the engine locks up. Had oil in it. So it wasn't like I drove it without oil. Well, Chrysler sends us one off the assembly line. Brand new engine. Guess what they charge us for it? one penny. Chrysler has to pay for the engine and they don't charge us full price. Meaning if our mark-up on warranty work is 10%.... we don't even make a penny on it. THEN we lose our asses putting it in to a brand new car. So they stick it to us every chance they get too.

Those are just three points that I've actually paid attention to in the 5 years I've been working at a Chrysler/Jeep Dealership. There's MANY MANY more that I just don't care to get concerned with because it's not going to change until the manufacturers change.

Finally I'll close by pointing out how alot of the good customers get screwed because of the bad ones. The oil filters have "Factory Installed" on them so we know if the customer changed the oil since getting the car. When we get a car with 25,000 miles on it, knocking, oil light on and motor is sludged up... and the oil filter is still the original one... we don't get to argue a whole lot because of the mileage. So because they don't have sense enough to take care of their car and get warranty work they clearly don't deserve... we can't help those of you who DO deserve it. When we get whiny customers in to the dealership with 40,000 miles on it that have never had a complaint with the car and now they have something stupid that's broken and want it fixed for free, they raise hell in the business, cussing at the service writers, receptionists and finally #####ing to Chrysler... Chrysler tells us to fix the car. Why? I don't know. They don't deserve it with the way they acted and the fact that their insurance policy ran out and they didn't buy any more. That's why we can't help the good people that come in every 3,000 miles and have us look the car over and service what needs to be done.

Bottom line is there IS more to the dealership than alot of people know. All they see is a dollar figure and go through the roof. Never mind the fact that we all are getting screwed buy the Manufacturer. Just blame the people right in front of you for a part someone else designed 3,000 miles away in some little computer room surrounded by penny pinchers and tight wads.
When you find that someone did crappy work, left boot marks all on your upholstry, talked rude to you or claimed to do a repair that they didn't.... then take it out on that particular person. But when you refer to all dealerships as satan... that's the stereotyping that prevents you from ever getting to know and trust the good guys out there because you assumed we were all alike.
Doug

 

[ytwithsi]

everything you said in there is 100% correct, I worked at two different ford dealerships where I live(lincoln mercury dealership and ford dealership) I did the rental car area and service drive. You are right the customers suck, they complain about everything and want everything for free. however one thing I did notice is the techs. I was friends with almost all of them but one thing struck me funny, the were not very honest. Not like they lied to the customer but they did lie to the dealership about their time. I know that the techs have a book that say what a job should take, but you cant sit there and tell me that everyjob you do takes the maximum alotted time. I mean the engine guy would pull three engines by lunch and go home because he had 24 hrs or work already. Thats just one guy, there are 13 techs at the small dealership. You get the techs charging what they should charge and I bet the dealership has a little more money to be generous with. If the tech says it took 8 hours, guess what the customer pays for 8 hours of labor even though it only 2. Now where is the fairness there?

 

[Jason]

good call ytwithsi

 

[Doug99RS]

If the tech says it took 8 hours, guess what the customer pays for 8 hours of labor even though it only 2. Now where is the fairness there?

You bring up valid points that I did not. You do have a good argument there however, I would just like to shed some more light on those points just so all the evidence can be weighed.

The labor guide you are referring to is based on an industry standard of how much warranty time pays and how much actual time it takes to do the repair. They look at several shops, in several different states/areas and compare the actual times. From there they come up with an average. That's the time that they put in the book for all the world to see. Now... I do agree that 2 hours for an 8 hour job is too high. However, on a smaller difference you have to take in to account several things.
First off, the training that the tech has and how much experience he has doing that particular repair. That average in the book accounts for the speed of both the 20 year vet and the 2 year rookie. So the experienced tech should not be punished simply because he knows what he's doing.
Next is the tools the technician has. 98% of the tools needed to do a repair are supplied by the technician. Simple impact swivel sockets that cost $25 a piece, I've personally got scan tool/scope software with a palm that cost me a grand, and impact guns that cost 150-200. All these tools make that job go quicker. Put the guy down the street with all hand tools side by side with the man with air tools, special tools for that engine job, and the scan tool software to actually diagnose the problem and who do you think can diagnose and fix it quicker and still the right way? Hands down the air tool guy. I spent two years in a dealership with me and one other tech and it was like being back in the stone age. Since I've moved up to dealerships with 15-20 other techs and the tools to do the job and I'd be the one done quicker than the other guy. So why should I get paid less than the other guy because he won't spend money to make money?
And finally there's the dealership training, tools and facilities. If the dealership has all the things it needs to do a repair quicker than the dealership down the road, then they will be a better business. It all comes down to who spends more money to do the job right, the first time, in the least amount of time. That's the way any business is. You know the going rate and anything you can do to get it done just as good or better, in less time and with less supplies means you're going to make a bigger profit.

As in any business there is the question of the honesty and ethics of the person you're dealing with. The last dealership I left becuase I do not work with crooks. Example: 420A headgaskets... there's a repair called a slip and slide. They take off the valve cover gasket, use swivel impact sockets to get to the head bolts, loosen them, tilt the cams, remove the bolts, pry up on the head, slide out the old gasket and slide in the new one. Never even seeing the surface of the head or the block much less cleaning all that old gasket off. All they care about is that the car doesn't come back while still under parts warranty or basic warranty.
This is a prime example of greed and theivery. I do not work with people like this and I do not work for those who approve this type of work. I understand that this is a prime example of why most people hate the dealership. But when you give up hope and come up with the vague generalizations then it's times like that when people like me get thrown in to that category.

p.s. I'm looking to a career upgrade cause I do see everyone's put and while I am improving the way I work... I can't change the dealership environment world wide.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

I would not complain at least you still have a little to go on, Its going to cost me 900$ to have my timing belt changed, But I get a new water pump, Timing belt Tensioner and other shit done. But still That price almost makes me want to do it my self, And if I get my Cam Gears (getting rid my my Venom for some AEM maybe something else not sure yet) Im going to have to do it my self. Because the Dealer will not install them because they are after market.

 

[Ballin' GS]

I think its wrong to call dealers satan. They make their money just like any other business does. You pay the extra for taking your car in to be worked on by someone who is designated as an expert in repairing your brand of cars. WHen you take it to a shop on the side of the road they don't know as much about your car as the dealer tech does. So basically you are paying for someone with more knowledge about your car to work on it. If you have a problem take it to a shop you know does good work, its as simple as that. Everyplace makes their money, just like a dealership. Just because they charge more doesn't make them satan, it just means they have higher costs and have to pay for people that should have more knowledge about you car.

 

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Jason
I just though I would share my success story.

It's not a success until well after you've gotten it back. Good luck.

 

[Redmachine]

Originally posted by Jason
I take it to Satan
peace out

That is impossible because my mother in law doesn't work on cars

 

[DongeR]

Originally posted by ytwithsi
I know that the techs have a book that say what a job should take, but you cant sit there and tell me that every job you do takes the maximum allotted time. I mean the engine guy would pull three engines by lunch and go home because he had 24 hrs or work already. That’s just one guy, there are 13 techs at the small dealership. You get the techs charging what they should charge and I bet the dealership has a little more money to be generous with. If the tech says it took 8 hours, guess what the customer pays for 8 hours of labor even though it only 2. Now where is the fairness there?

You are correct on this part. If a technician says he took 8 hours and only did it in two hours while the flat-rate manual says he should be able to perform the job in 4. Then yes, he is ripping you off. To be over the time, by 4 hours, is allowed by the shop only a few times and the customer will have to agree with that by either a phone call or written in the invoice. If the tech is repeatedly a tech that goes over the time, he should look for another job.

However, if the technician took 45 minutes to do a job and the flat-rate manual says it should be done in an hour and half then the technician has a privilege to charge the customer 1 ½ hours. This is where his time is allotted for another job because the dealership wants him to finish before the flat-rate manual and the technician can earn most of his money from both salary and commission.

The technician has skills, knowledge and equipment that he has to purchase himself. The dealerships do not provide tools for the tech they simply provide up-to-date manufactures technical repairs such as new devices that come into the cars.

Doug, I commend you on your professionalism.

 

[98RedGs]

Originally posted by Redmachine
That is impossible because my mother in law doesn't work on cars

:laugh:

Amusing.
But my timing belt install costed me about $450 bucks total.

 

[Doug99RS]

Another thing to keep in mind when comparing price tag of repairs is what is being replaced.
If repair shop A quotes:
4 hours labor @ $75.00 = $300.00
1 Timing belt @ $65.00 = $65.00
1 Balance Belt@ $35.00 = $35.00
-----------------------------------------
Total parts and labor before tax: $400.00


And Dealership quotes:
5.0 hours labor @ $75.00 = $375.00
1 Timing Belt @ $65.00 = $ 65.00
1 Balance Belt @ $35.00 =$ 35.00
1 Acc. belt A @ $20.00 = $ 20.00
1 Acc. Belt B @ $15.00 = $ 15.00
1 Acc. Belt C @ $20.00 = $ 20.00
1 Water pump @ $80.00 = $ 80.00
1 Gallon Coolant @ $10.00 = $ 10.00
------------------------------------------------
Total parts and labor before tax: $620.00

A difference of $220.00 dollars. 1.5 times the first repair shops bill.

This is what makes the dealerships look bad is repair shop A comparing apples to oranges. They are two different operations. When people start throwing numbers back in other repair shops faces they need to know EXACTLY what they are paying for. Are they paying for the least possible amount of work? Or are they getting identical parts and identical repairs done only at a cheaper price?

If you do the math from repair shop A's estimate and then add the price of a water pump job AFTER the first repairs were done then you'd be looking at the same cost in parts but an additional 1.5 hours ($112.50) because the first shop did not do a thorough a complete repair the first time. Now who did who the injustice there?

I run in to this problem on a regular basis. I price a water pump, a timing belt, and both pullies inside the timing cover any time I do a 2gnt timing belt repair. Because of the $100.00 water pump, and the 2 $40-50.00 pullies I frequently do not get the job sold or I have to hear complaints about how some independent could do the job for over $150.00 less.

Honesty is probably going to bite me in the but here but my own efforts two weeks ago have come back to haunt me. I have three cars with chrysler engines. All three have the same parts give or take depending on application. Eclipse got water pump, pullies and everything it needed. No problems. Red neon got oil pump, water pump, pullies and everything it needed. Blue neon that I'm trying to sell got JUST the timing belt and headgasket. Now the timing belt driven water pump has gone out. I knew better than to skip it but I was trying to cut corners and keep SOME profit. I've now got to go back in it and replace the water pump. I KNEW better but I did a half-ass repair and it bit me. That's why I price higher for customers than jo-schmo down the road and that's why I don't have problems with a thorough repair.

Compare apples to oranges all day long but they're just not the same thing.
Doug

 

[ninjai_ruken]

Thanks to my dad I can change a Timing Belt my self. They are just trying to make a living at what they do. The Major Thing you have to watch out for with any place working on your car. Is when they quote you a price for doing a job. Ask them if that is the minimum for maximum for what the job they are doing is. Hours, Labor, Parts things like that

 

[BlueTalon95]

The only real problem I have is when technicians cant diagnose or misdiagnoses a problem. This is not directed at all mechanichs, I'm sure there are good ones out there.

When I take my car to a dealership for a repair, expect them to find the problem and fix it. What I don't like is when the mechanic tells me a certain repair will fix the problem, and it doesn't. I'm back at the shop in two days later for the same problem because the mechanic "probably guessed at the problem and fixed the most common cause for it." I know this is not all mechanics. Its probably not even the majority of mechanics.

As a result of some bad experiences, I'm in school learning to be an automotive technician. My instructor, a former Ford Service advisor of some 20 years, admitted to the quoted text above, also saying it was "probably easier for the mechanics to play the percentages of guessing right, and if the customer comes back two days later, thinking that they are covered by a warranty for the repair, surprise! The problem now lies somewhere else, and therefore not covered by any warranty." Again I'm sure that this is not all mechanics, and should say that this happens more at a Pepboys than at a dealer.

I think problems like that are really what gives mechanics at dealers or otherwise a bad name.

Now that i'm done writing a novel, let me say lastly, thanks to all the Honest mechanics out there

 

[Doug99RS]

The percentages game is very much still being played everywhere. We see the symptoms, know what it took to fix the condition last time and roll the dice on it. Unfortunately, the problem you experienced shows a lack of quality control. It's ok to play the game so long as the tech is willing to make sure that the problem is fixed and eat the expenses if it's not. This is of course up to a certain dollar figure. If it takes another $20 part and one hour labor then I myself would tell my service writer/manager and he'd take care of the part and I'd be out an hour's labor. But we'd have the customer's car fixed.

If the price is way out like $100+ then we'd have to get the customer involved and work them a deal. Alot of it depends on the presentation of the facts. Unfortunately, there's alot of mis-communications between service tech, service writer, and service customer that doesn't help the image of the repair shop.

Bottom line still is that the tech needs to quality check their work before returning it to the customer.
Doug

 

[keltalon]

But this is just a rare instance of them being good.

If Mother Theresa dropped ass, well, she's still Mother Theresa

well just upgrade satan to devil