ALL MOTOR! Naturally Aspirated Hybrid Poject

[anubis]

Welcome to my new thread dedicated to the build up of my naturally aspirated hybrid motor. I've been reading, researching, posting all over the forums, talking to my resources, and collecting parts for this project for over three months now. I'm going to start with some background info and why I started down this path.

While I was on "spring" break from college back at the end of February, my car died. Long story short, my timing got messed up badly. All of my valves were bent, all the guides were cracked, my intake cam was retarded 14deg, my balance shaft belt was in a hundred pieces (not much of an exaggeration), and I can't remember what else. I don't know what was cause and what was effect, but it doesn't matter anymore.

Like any good DSMer, I decided that it would be a fine time to do a few "small upgrades". Well, those "few, small" upgrades became a major pursuit of naturally aspirated performance.

I'll start off by letting you all know what I've got so far.

BLOCK
G4CS from Hyundai Sonata with +.20 overbore yielding 2.38L
Wiseco 9.2:1 forged pistons with floating pins
1g rods (need to be modified to fit 2G style pistons)
Aluminum pulley set

HEAD
4G63 1G with stage I port and polish
5 angle valve job
Adjustable cam gears

INTAKE
K&N cone filter
Aluminum intake pipe
Hacked MAFS
Ported manifold

EXHAUST
4-2-1 ceramic coated header with thermal wrap (needs to be ported)
Full 2.5" exhaust with test pipe (need new muffler)

COOLING
2G aluminum radiator core (needs to be modified)

ELECTRICAL
Optima red top
10mm wires
Iridium plugs
SAFCII
EGT and fuel pressure gauges

And the rest of the stuff is on my to-get list.

HEAD
264 intake & exhaust cams (or maybe just intake, I'm not sure yet)

FUEL
190lph fuel pump
Adjustable FPR
High volume fuel rail
SS braided lines
450cc injectors

COOLING
Slim fans

ELECTRICAL
Pocketlogger stuff

I think that's everything. If I remember something that I might be forgetting, I'll come back and edit the list.

As of right now I'm still waiting for my head and block to get done so I can start putting this thing together. I'm getting the head from another member here on the site. He should have had the head to me two months ago, but due to circumstances beyond his control (broken leg, cracked valves, instances were unrelated) I still don't have it yet. I'm hoping I can have it in my hands in the next two weeks. And then with the block, it's been at the machine shop since April because my machinist has been so backed up that he is just now getting to it. That should also be in my hands, balanced and ready to go, in about two weeks.

I'm really looking forward to getting this going. From what I can tell, no one has ever tried this before. If anybody out there has ever done this or heard of it being done, let me know. And I'm not talking about a turbo-hybrid, because I know that's been done. I've spent some time talking to 2.4 turbo Hyped to get all the information from him that I could. He's done a few of the turbo G4CS hybrid motors. So I know that's been done.

It will be hard finding time to get this done because I'm currently working two jobs at 50-60 hours per week to help fund this project (among other things, like diamond rings). My goal is to have this thing in the car, broken in, and tuned up in time for the DSM Shootout at Norwalk. I also have a turbo rebuild to do as well before then so I can take both of them down. We'll see...

I will update this as progress is made and will try my best to get pictures. I don't have a digital camera at my disposal, but I will either borrow one or buy one so I can get pictures. I would like to maybe write a tech article about this whole process once I'm done, and that's one of the reasons I'm starting this thread.

Lastly, if anyone has any suggestions, comments, questions, criticisms, or what-not, let me know. I'd really appreciate any input from fellow members.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Why not go higher compression if you are going naturally aspirated? Are somethign like 11:1 or 12:1 pistons available for the 4g63/64 platform?

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

In addition to that why put them on 1G rods?

You'd want to rev high so why not put forged rods in of you are going all the way?

 

[dr1665]

My goal is to have this thing in the car, broken in, and tuned up in time for the DSM Shootout at Norwalk.

As one of your all motor counterparts in the 2G world, I think this thread is awesome. I'll be driving Daisy out to the Shootout from Phoenix and staying at the Best Western there in Norwalk. Look me up. We can toast the satisfaction of befuddling the turbo guys.

Good luck with it, sir. Sounds like a lot of fun. I've still got several tuning issues to resolve before I hit the road in 5 weeks, but she will make it to Norwalk, tuned or not.

One thing I might suggest you look into for your tuning needs in the future is the Megasquirt fuel and ignition computer. There is a guy on the MSEFI forums with a boosted 4G63 running this to control his vitals and I bet you could get it to work on your car as well. I hope to have mine at least controlling fuel before the Shootout.

Keep it up!

 

[anubis]

Why not go higher compression if you are going naturally aspirated? Are somethign like 11:1 or 12:1 pistons available for the 4g63/64 platform?

One of the reasons why I think I'm the only person who's ever done this (or at least why it's not common): I can't find pistons with a CR higher than what I have. I could have had some made, but i didn't want to have to pay $600-$800 for a set of pistons that I'll have to replace in a few years.

WTF , right? I didn't mention this in my original post, but the long term goal for this motor is to eventually put it into a turbo application. I wanted to try the non-turbo first to see what I can do with it and because I think it's good for the N/A guys. If I could have found a set of pistons for this setup that would have yielded me 10-11:1 CR and NOT cost me an arm and a leg, I would have gotten them.

Another reason I went with a lower CR is that I don't want to fill up on premium or 104 to go pick up a 6-pack at the party store. If I had the time and money for an all motor track car, I would have had a set of 12:1 or higher pistons made.

However, I think to get that kind of a CR, the pistons would need to be domed. I don't have time right now to do the calculations and figure it out (I'm still at work); but if so, clearance would be a major issue with a high performance cam and a domed piston. I could be wrong. I think I'll get pretty decent performance with what I have and I know they'll be great once boost enters the system.

In addition to that why put them on 1G rods?

You'd want to rev high so why not put forged rods in of you are going all the way?

To answer this question: I didn't think I would need to. The stock 1g rods are good for up to 300-400 HP, right? There's no way in Hell I'm going to get close to 400HP. Given they might be a little heavier, but I am on a budget here. If i come across a nice set of forged rods in the next couple weeks for a good price, I may consider it.

Wow, the first two replies come for the big bad moderators (bad = awesome). I got someone's attention. Thanks for the input.

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

Well I guess your at a crossroads. You need to decide whether you are going to be all- motor or turbo. Really it just seems like you are trying to prepare the motor for a turbo rather than going all-out with an all motor setup.

 

[anubis]

Well I guess your at a crossroads. You need to decide whether you are going to be all- motor or turbo. Really it just seems like you are trying to prepare the motor for a turbo rather than going all-out with an all motor setup.

Sure, I can see what you're saying; but where do you draw the line? What is the difference between "all motor" and "preparing for a turbo" besides the compression ratio? Like I said, these are the best pistons for the price with the highest CR I could find.

You got me, I can't resist the power of the turbo. Until then why not pursue the all motor route as far as possible (without breaking my bank account)? I think it will be educational and a lot of fun. Again, I think it will be good for the N/A members to see some one actually pull off a non-turbo hybrid motor. The motor isn't going to be sitting on a stand while I gather turbo parts. This will be in my car and running for a few years (knock on wood). And who knows, maybe by then I might go all-out all motor. I never said that I was going all-out anyway. For now, it will continue to be an all motor, hybrid buildup.

 

[dr1665]

I got a set of custom forged 10.5:1CR pistons from Venolia out in California for $500. Purchased them through Exile Racing Technologies in Chicagoland. They had to send a stocker to Venolia to spec out, then Venolia did all the calculations to get me a 10.5:1 forged piston. I bet they could do the same thing for a 4G63 piston. They are, after all, a custom piston manufacturer.

And don't let the CR scare you off turbo in the future. So long as you have the means to properly tune things, you can still boost it. I fully plan on boosting my 10.5 motor in the next year (hopefully this winter). I don't think I would try boosting on anything higher than what I'm running now, but it can be done. Just starts you closer to the thin line between OH-YEAH and OH-SHIT. The only major differences between my all motor build will be the routing of the exhaust (manifold, turbine), the routing of the intake (compressor, IC), the size of the injectors I decide to run and a couple fuel/spark tables.

EDIT:
I'm no expert on 4G63 stuff, but I'm thinking the same principles apply to both engines. Just be sure you've got your goals set before you go any further. If you're not completely sure this is what you want to do, you'll never be satisfied. Then again, who here is actually satisfied?

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

I never said that I was going all-out anyway.

This sentence led me to believe that.

Well, those "few, small" upgrades became a major pursuit of naturally aspirated performance.

 

[anubis]

I got a set of custom forged 10.5:1CR pistons from Venolia out in California for $500. Purchased them through Exile Racing Technologies in Chicagoland. They had to send a stocker to Venolia to spec out, then Venolia did all the calculations to get me a 10.5:1 forged piston. I bet they could do the same thing for a 4G63 piston. They are, after all, a custom piston manufacturer.

I might have to check that out. how long did it take to get them to make your pistons and ship them to you? I might have to tell my guy at the machine shop to stop and send those Wisecos back. I checked the price at ERT and they wanted $540 for pistons. How'd you get them for $500? If I can get a set of custom pistons for $500, I would definately go 10:1. How deep is the dish on your pistons? or are they flat? are there grooves cut in them for the valves? Also, do you have to run premium fuel to avoid knock?

And don't let the CR scare you off turbo in the future. So long as you have the means to properly tune things, you can still boost it.

I ain't scurred of a little more compression. Anything higher than 10.5:1 and it's getting too close for me though.

Then again, who here is actually satisfied?

The people who don't care or don't know.

 

[dr1665]

I might have to check that out. how long did it take to get them to make your pistons and ship them to you?

Haha. There were some problems. I purchased them from ERT at the beginning of November and did not receive them until March. There were some issues with one person thinking another was sending the sample piston to Venolia and it sat for a while. Then they sent the sample and it arrived on a day before a holiday and Venolia had closed early, so it was returned. Then Venolia sat on the sample for a month or two because the rod was still attached (likely to make sure they knew it required a floating wrist pin). The day the pistons were supposed to ship, I had them double check to make sure they were the right CR and that they were ready for floating wrist pins, and they forgot about the wrist pins, so they had to be reworked, but I finally got them and they are great. I attribute my hang ups to my pistons being the first set of of stock displacement pistons for a 420A. They had been making pistons for the people doing 2.4L swaps, and turn around on those was usually about a month. Shit happens, and ERT was very good about keeping me informed when shit hit the fan. (After all, it should never take that long to get pistons made.)

I might have to tell my guy at the machine shop to stop and send those Wisecos back.

I would either way. I'll never touch another Wiseco piston. From what I've read and heard from professionals, there's a reason why they're so affordable. Comes down to the old rule of you can have it cheap, fast or right - pick any two. Seems to me they are cheap and you can get them rather quickly... Link to picture of my Wiseco failure after just 14k miles.

I checked the price at ERT and they wanted $540 for pistons. How'd you get them for $500? If I can get a set of custom pistons for $500, I would definately go 10:1.

I got them for the price I did for a number of reasons. For starters, got them way back when ERT first started offering them (as I've seen them going for $800-$900 out there). But I like to think it had something to do with both my knowing all the 420A guys that work there from the Shootout last year and having already spent about two grand on my head with them.

How deep is the dish on your pistons? or are they flat? are there grooves cut in them for the valves? Also, do you have to run premium fuel to avoid knock?

Sadly, I was in such a hurry to get the pistons and the block to the machine shop the day they came in (literally had the block in the hatch of the 1G with the engine running as I ran in to the apartment complex office to collect them), that I did not get any pictures of them. Pretty sure they are domed. I would venture to say that Venolia basically replicates the stock piston based on their measurements and then varies the face to affect CR. They also apply their piston manufacturing expertise to modify the design a bit to improve performance and longetivity. I'm no piston expert, but they appear to be some damn fine pistons. There are valve reliefs in the piston faces and I do have to use premium to avoid knock. With the AFX/R ECU I have installed, I'm supposed to be using 93 octane, but we only go as high as 91 here in Arizona, so I get a little knock below 2000rpm under heavier loads. My MSnS install this summer should rectify that. I plan on pulling some timing back in that area to run on the knock juice. I can get 100 octane less than 20 yards from my driveway, but at $5/gal, it's a bit steep. Might just start throwing a couple gallons in there with every fill up until she's tuned. (Just to be safe. I've got about $5000 into my engine now, and it's a worthwhile investment imo.)

I don't think I would go any higher than 10.5:1CR myself with a turbo in mind. If I thought I would be happy driving around above 4000rpm all the time to make some decent power with a set of Crower 3 cams and some 11.5:1 pistons, I would go that route, but I feel my set up gives me the best of both worlds. Some good fun playing all motor, and still the ability to turbocharge. It's a lot of fun.

 

[anubis]

Is that a crack below the pin? Do you (or someone else) know why that happened? It doesn't look like those had the special coating on the skirt? Do you think that might have had something to do with it? If that's a regular occurrence, I might just send those back and get something else. Any of you experienced people have any recommendations for new pistons or a way to avoid piston failure on my Wisecos? In the mean time, I'm looking into those Venolia pistons. Thanks for all of the information and help so far, everyone.

 

[dr1665]

Crack was a result of a wrist pin lock failing on me. Floating wrist pins do not stay without them. Pin began to move. Piston begain to wobble on the rod. Cylinder walls were scored badly. Piston was cracked in several locations and scuffed in others.

I did not get them with any kind of coating. Also, had I not been waiting so long to get the Venolias in the first place, I would have had them tweaked by Eddy Fierro, then cryo'd, then coated, but since I don't intend on ever maxing them out, I just had them balanced and installed.


I know the Wisecos are fairly popular among the 4G63 community, so you might be okay. I just know that most 420A people are staying away from them. Most people I know are running JEs or CP, I believe.

 

[anubis]

Crack was a result of a wrist pin lock failing on me.

That sucks.

I know the Wisecos are fairly popular among the 4G63 community, so you might be okay.

I heard that they were good pistons. I'll find out. I think I'll be ok as long as I give them time to get broken in properly.

Anyways, I talked to my guy at the machine shop and he said he will have the shortblock done (bored, assembled, balanced) by the either the end of this week or the beginning of next week. It's been in his shop since April, so I'm pretty pumped about getting it done. I need to get on the phone and see when my head will be done. As soon as I have the top and bottom ends, I need to put them together and test the clearance.

I need to find higher performance cams as well. HKS 264's are as big as I want to go and I might settle for stage I Crowers if I need to. If anyone knows where I can get a good deal, send me a PM. I've been keeping my eyes on Ebay and the classified section here. I'd like to have them within the next 2-3 weeks so I can get the head finished. I also need to remember to get my pulley set machined so they bolt up correctly.

I'll update again as parts come in and as things get put together. Oh, and one last thing. could someone refer me to a good tuner? I would like to have my car dyno-tuned once I've completed the build. I'll drive 200-300 miles from Saginaw, Michigan if I need to.

 

[anubis]

I was really looking forward to having my block ready to go in the next few days, but I just got done talking to the guy at the machine shop, and it's looking like it'll be at least another 2 weeks. I haven't heard back from the guy doing my headwork in about a week; but last time i talked to him, he was almost done.

I can't wait to get all of my components. I don't know if I'll be able to get this done before the shootout, but I'm sure going to give it a shot. I still have to finish getting the performance parts on my "to-get" list. I wasn't able to work all this week due to power being out at the office; so my next paycheck is going to be a little small. I'm still aiming to have all of my parts within 3 weeks though.

For those of us who like visuals, I should have some pictures of the beginning stages of my little project uploaded to the thread by this Tuesday. I took the pictures a few months ago, but am just getting around to getting the film developed (I need a digital camera). Unfortunately, I didn't get any pictures of my pistons before I dropped them off at the machine shop. We'll get to see the tops of them, however, as the motor gets put together.

 

[timloomis]

if i ever get bored,ill build another 4g63 shortblock.i shoulda bought the 10:1's machv had a while back,only 1 set in stock.only a few hundred,but thatd be fun to see what theyd do.i read an article that those honda drag cars are like 17:1.

 

[99 gst 420a dsm]

To answer this question: I didn't think I would need to. The stock 1g rods are good for up to 300-400 HP, right? There's no way in Hell I'm going to get close to 400HP. Given they might be a little heavier, but I am on a budget here. If i come across a nice set of forged rods in the next couple weeks for a good price, I may consider it.

Wow, the first two replies come for the big bad moderators (bad = awesome). I got someone's attention. Thanks for the input.

Maybe 1g rods are good for 300-400 horse power but with your engine you should be shooting for high rev'n power, those 1g rods aren't the key for high rev, search around and look at all the pictures of stretched 1g rods. But without a fuel cut deffencer or rev-limit eliminator, your not going to make high power revs anyway.

 

[anubis]

All right, it's early (very early) Wednesday morning. I've had a LONG, CRAPPY day. On the bright side, I stopped by the machine shop again today to drop off a few parts needed for balancing. Mike (the guy doing my work) is pumped about getting my stuff done. That's good for me. Other than that, no more progress. But at least I got my pictures all scanned and ready to go.

Before you get excited I want everyone to know, I have a crappy camera. I did not know this until after I went through two rolls of film. The pictures that I will post are good enough, but from now on I'm using a different camera. So... on with the pictures.

The first four are:

Broken balance shaft belt. This is very blurry, but you can see what you need to see. This is all that was left when we pulled the lower timing cover. I've never seen a belt in this bad of shape.

Hanging 4g63. Freshly picked! Farewell 2.0

4g63 internals and other stuff laying around.

Empty engine bay. Yeah, it's been like that since early March.

 

[anubis]

Here are the rest of the pictures.

"Nice" "new" g4cs. I brough this home in the trunk of my brothers Cavalier from Toledo. No it didn't exactly fit. That was an interesting trip. It wasn't really "new" as it came from an 89 Sonata. It wasn't really "nice" either as we came to find out after we pulled the head and found a serious gouge(sp) in cylinder #3. (the leg belongs to my friend Grant, and that's my brother Scott with the wrench )

Side view of the g4cs.

g4cs shortblock. That looks so familiar...

g4cs internals. Would make a cheap stroker kit, but I like the hybrid thing.

 

[noodlez60]

im doing the same buildup as anubis... the g4cs 2.4L w/ 4g63 head... a few parts short of a shortblock... just thought that id say you are not alone...

ahead:

JE 10:1 87mm stroker pistons (wrist pin 6mm up)
156mm eagle rods
turbo cams

ill keep in touch with the thread for your final product

 

[anubis]

im doing the same buildup as anubis... the g4cs 2.4L w/ 4g63 head... a few parts short of a shortblock... just thought that id say you are not alone...

ahead:

JE 10:1 87mm stroker pistons (wrist pin 6mm up)
156mm eagle rods
turbo cams

ill keep in touch with the thread for your final product

Well noodlez, welcome to the project. Feel free to post your own progress on this thread. I think it'd be cool to have you take over, seeing how I have to abandon the project for a while.

Yes, I've given up on this project for the summer. there isn't a snowball's chance in hell I'll have it done in time to go back to school. now think of the chances of getting it done in time for the shootout. There's always next year...

I'll let you all know why I'm aborting. First, I still don't have the block or the head. It's absolutely ridiculous that I can't get these things done more promptly. I guess that's just how things can be. Second, see picture below. I hit some old guy. It's a long story. The point is, I need to set up an appointment with my lawyer to see what we can do about it. The officer who did the report said it was my fault. The car had limited collision, so it's only covered if it's NOT my fault. Lastly, I'm going to need to put some money away for when I get back to college.

I'm extremely disappointed that I won't be getting down to Norwalk. But on the other hand, I will have my turbo laser up and running in time to drive back to school. So that will be nice. I will continue to post updates as they occur, which will probably be on a weekend once in a while and on my vacations. So noodlez, if you want to take over, be my guest. If you have any questions, just ask. And best of luck.

 

[noodlez60]

well.... im broke now too... and if i have to get my car towed back to my home... ill be in debt... and that really sux ass... so for now im going to have to stick with my car for the time being... i just got my engine rebuilt... if you want a list of aftermarket parts.... tell me... they are too many to remember off the top of my head...

my engine and tranny are almost connected together into a drop-in unit and THEN ill get my car back from them... and after that ill need to take out my old crossmember (the piece that the steer shaft enters behind the engine... and it also houses the steering rack) and replace it with my new one... thats gonna be a b*tch to do... and if i get my car done by "cruise night" in streator (sept. 3-4)... ill get you pictures of this beast

but on a different note... step #1--- i need to RAISE 200 bux to start my project... which consists of hot tanking, bore & hone, painting the block...

step #2--- disassemble head completely (valves & springs are still in), hot tank, simple smooting out imperfections and port matching of intake & exhaust passages (need to get a gasket for my header for machinist to match exh.), check valves for straightness (may need new valves), 3-5 angle valvejob, new valveguides, and a 3mm wide and 2mm deep "racing stripe" down the bottom side of the intake passages so the port at the gasket looks like this:


.../...................................................\
./.......................................................\
|.........................................................|
|.........................................................|
|.........................................................|
.\......................................................./
...\________...____________...________/
................l--l...................l--l

those grooves help the air stick along the walls better, ill have to look for it again at the old one site...

http://www.theoldone.com/archive/

step 3--- ASSEMBLY... this will probably take quite some time since this is when i will most likely be needing to buy 1500 bux in parts and have a bit more labor done with clearancing and balancing the bottom end buildup... maybe a bit more if i cant afford the valvetrain tools

 

[noodlez60]

oh and sorry to hear about your accident

 

[na90dsm]

i had plans and still do for a 2.0L n/a motor pushin 300hp. 450cc injectors are gonna be to big for your aplication and to make any kind of power you need custom all motor cams. polk performance has soem all motor cam specs. call em and ask em about it.

i had a few posts about tryin to get in touch with em about the camshafts but no luck for abotu a month then i blew my car up so i aborted things. youll need forged rods, lightened crank,at least 11:0:1 compression, and cams bigger then hks 272's or jun camshafts.

basically your talkin at least 2 months of research on gettin any kind of power out of that motor. then normal turbo head tricks wont work. you need some advice on head setups or bottom end stuff shoot me a pm. bout time someone is getitn a all motor thing goin.,

 

[noodlez60]

lets see the parts...

custom billet cams 500 each*
forged pistons 600 set--- (not including coatings or special design)
forged connecting rods 600-800*
lightened/billet crank shaft $$$$
long block core 200 lucky yard*
injectors ???
adjustable cam gears 400-600 set
stand alone fuel management computer
knock sensor

now for the work...

custom head design (portwork, cumbustion chamber reshaping, valvejob)
custom research in cam design (may warrent custom piston design)
strategic piston and combustion chamber coatings
hours upon hours of tuning
professional rebuild on head and block



now for the ways you can go

CHEAP

take a g4cs/4g64/g64b block and throw on a 4g63 nt/turbo head... this will give you the high compression... ill have to do some math but it will give you somewhere around 12-13:1 CR
throw on some HKS cams and you got yourself a high compression NA engine that will need to be knock controlled with race gas or alki/water injection... remember with this kind of power coming from stock internals you prolly wont be able to nitrous the stuff too much and you will have barely any chance of ever turboing that engine with that kind of comp ratio... unless you plan on heavily modding to control knock


NEXT step to expensive and professional

get the portwork to match the NA application you are searching for (you must research this stuff or have someone who has a large amount of technical experience in NA apps)... low end power or high end power (harder to obtain with 4g64/cs bottom end cuz of rod/stroke ratio... will explain later)

custom pistons... get custom dishes to maximize swirl dynamics and to accomidate for clearnces with the valves in comparison with the cam timing (prolly will come into account at one point in time)... while you are at the custom designed pistons... might as well get a precision coating for them new pistons... you might want to look into offset pins to adjust the r/s ratio with rod length

bottom end... you may need billet... you can stick with the 100mm stroke crank or you can swap in a 4g63 crank in and get a higher rev motor (better rod angle ratio but longer piston dwell time)... if you need a billet crank... them you might aswell get custom rods aswell... because you can square one of these motors with a 1mm shave off the stroke (thats 1/2mm shave off the crank itself) (87mm bore.... 87mm stroke....) custom rods can create the revability of the engine... the stock rod/stroke ratio of the 4g64/cs is 1.5... ratios of 1.8-2.0 are more preferable... that would mean that if you have a 87mm stroke with a 162.5mm rod (would match up i believe in our 2.4L block) that the rod/stroke ratio would be 1.868... that is just inside a preferable range... you can go to the extreme with adding deck plates and sleeving your engine... hell... if you could add 12mm more to the deck height... you could theoretically achieve a 2.0 R/S ratio with custom rods and some block modifications for clearancing

FINAL STEP

$100,000,000 in research and you can have a 500hp NA beast thats can rev out to 16k... almost like Formula 1 car engines.....