ECMlink GVR4 e85 Tune on SD

[Devilsfutbol17]

I’m running e85 right now and having searched, I want to make sure I’m on the correct path on tuning.

1. Turn the boost up to where I would like to target, 25psi.
2. Change the OpenLoopMaxOct table for all load factors over 1.6 to 12.0 AFR because I see this is a more precise method than the fuel sliders.
3. Play with my AFR table, possibly go up a little higher to see what power gains result, no more than 12.8 AFR, watching for knock at the same time
4. Once boost and AFR are set, begin to monitor the cells effected at WOT and slowing start adding timing until I do not net over 5 hp from the change.
5. Enjoy

HP will be monitored from ECMlink, doing the pulls on the same road, same ambient temperature air, and same gear, hoping to eliminate variables.

I setup e85, by changing my global to -37% based off 1066cc injectors. Then I reset fuel trims and adjusted deadtime down to 235 microseconds where I could get combined FT to oscillate over 0% at idle.

Also I'm on SD and I have done the WOT VE table adjustment once, with 3 cells just over 100%. I’m going to try and do it a couple more times to make my PLX WB match the estimated AFR at WOT.

There are many e85 threads out there with different methods being tossed around, I just want to make sure this is the way to go. This will not happen until this weekend due to my front mount is still being shipped, just want to get as much info now as I can. Also I did post this on the ECMLink forums so I can get as much feedback as possible.

Thank you.

 

[Chicken Patty]

On E85 you don't get knock, when you get knock, it might be too late. On my 2G DSM, what I do is run about 25psi, but leave my stock timing map. I just tweak it during peak torque since you shouldn't run much timing there at all.

Set timing low, set boost to desired level and then just increase timing one degree at a time. You should get at lease 5-7 HP per degree, if you don't get that, back off.

This should be done on a dyno, but if you do it right you can get good results on the street. Then just spend a single hour on the dyno making final tweaks.

As far as A/F ratio, E85 can continue to make power ven when rich unlike pump gas. Tune for 12.0-12.3, car should run perfect like that.

Most people don't see a difference from leaning out over 12.0, none at all. Just gotta find the sweet spot, give it what it wants, when it wants.

Keep us posted.

 

[Devilsfutbol17]

Okay sounds good. I just got my FMIC in today and will hopefully finish it tomorrow night. I won't get a chance to do any WOT tuning because I had to order a SS IAT bung that won't probably be here until Thursday, Friday at the latest.

I did try to turn up the boost last night though. I bumped it up to about 20psi and zeroed my fuel sliders, then changed my maxoct table to 12.0. My first pull was alright, couple blimps of .4 or .7 degree retard. My second and third pull were awful with knock. I changed my max oct table to 11.5 and did a pull this morning and still picked up knock.

So on lunch today I just reset my maxoct table to see if I could get the knock to go away and it did. It just went back to a couple blimps of knock, still at 20psi. My dip stick also popped out for the first time ever, scared the shit out of me with the smoke.

So you think I should change my timing in the table lower than stock to start out with? Thanks for the reply.

Logs, first one is the first pull at 20psi, second one is same boost just crazy knock out of no where.

 

[Chicken Patty]

Okay sounds good. I just got my FMIC in today and will hopefully finish it tomorrow night. I won't get a chance to do any WOT tuning because I had to order a SS IAT bung that won't probably be here until Thursday, Friday at the latest.

I did try to turn up the boost last night though. I bumped it up to about 20psi and zeroed my fuel sliders, then changed my maxoct table to 12.0. My first pull was alright, couple blimps of .4 or .7 degree retard. My second and third pull were awful with knock. I changed my max oct table to 11.5 and did a pull this morning and still picked up knock.

So on lunch today I just reset my maxoct table to see if I could get the knock to go away and it did. It just went back to a couple blimps of knock, still at 20psi. My dip stick also popped out for the first time ever, scared the shit out of me with the smoke.

So you think I should change my timing in the table lower than stock to start out with? Thanks for the reply.

Logs, first one is the first pull at 20psi, second one is same boost just crazy knock out of no where.

I'll take a look at them when I get home, but is the dipstick on snug? Mine was doing the same and a new one fixed it, leak down and compression test were perfect.

 

[Devilsfutbol17]

The dipstick is not on snug. I did a compression test last weekend and that came out good, but I didn't do a leak down test. I recently swapped my valve cover and installed a new oem PVC valve, so that might have something to do with it. I put my old PCV valve back on and haven't done a pull since. I'll figure it out.

Hoping to get most of my FMIC on today so I can do some tuning tomorrow

 

[snowborder714]

I ran the pull through the SD WOT excel sheet I have and I see a bunch of cells that need adjusted. I'd suggest running it through the spreadsheet posted here (if it isn't the one you mentioned above), using the how-to video in post #40.
ECMTuning User Support Forums

Also, the 1g timing tables are fairly aggressive, so I'd suggest loading either a stock 2g table or one of the Evo tables (stock or mod1). This will keep your timing from hitting that 24* spike and dropping back down.
v3configs [ECMTuning - wiki]

 

[Chicken Patty]

That's probably why he's getting that knock reading sometimes. Too much timing!

Good catch snowboarder.

 

[Devilsfutbol17]

First pull is from the day before I made the switch to my FMIC kit. I was on stock timing and stock fuel tables/sliders. No major knock and I was pig rich. The last 4 are all from last night when I finished my front mount. Tried the 2g timing map on the first pull and I got knock. Figuring that was the only difference in my settings from the previous day where I had no knock on my stock intercooler, I switched back to my other settings with original factory fuel and timing setttings. Still picked up knock, so I made a little bit of adjustments with my fuel sliders to try to lower my AFRs but it didn't work and I still got knock.

With stock timing and fuel settings and my stock intercooler, I was pig rich at 20psi. Change to a front mount, new 3"intake pipe and move my MBC vacuum line to a tee with my BOV and now I have knock I can't get rid of. BLT up to 30 psi showed minor minor leaks at the BOV flange and throttle body, I'm talking barely anything. My hallman MBC shoots air out of the bleeder valve and my PCV valve leaks at those boost levels as well.

It was 4 am and a cop stopped to check out what I was doing, so I haven't had any time to make any further adjustments. Any insight is appreciated.

I plan on checking my base timing tonight and possibly replacing my plugs with some new BPR7ES plugs I bought the other day.

Just uploaded the bottom log. I added fuel accross the whole board and was able to get a pull with minimal knock. I was still on the 1g timing table, but I just changed it and am going to try the 2g table again. I don't have excell on my netbook so I couldn't do the VE table adjustments.

 

[Chicken Patty]

With the settings from the last pull, run the 2g map and try again. Also, too rich and you can knock too. Get your airfule around 11.8-12.0 and try again and see if knock goes away. Have you ever replaced your knock sensor, doesn't actually have to be knock. Also, run the BR8ES, you shouldn't use the BPR's with E85 and the 8's are better than the 7's.

Try again with 2g map and leaner air fuel like I suggested above and post back.

 

[snowborder714]

8's are only better than 7's if you need them. He's running 20psi on an Evo 3 16g, so I highly doubt he needs 8's. I run 7's on the same boost on a small 16g at stock gap. If he's experiencing any issues with the 7's at stock gap, he can gap them down to .024-.026" and shouldn't have any problems.

Change to a front mount, new 3"intake pipe and move my MBC vacuum line to a tee with my BOV and now I have knock I can't get rid of.

Nothing should be teed into the BOV line. Find another way to get the MBC a source.

BLT up to 30 psi showed minor minor leaks at the BOV flange and throttle body, I'm talking barely anything. My hallman MBC shoots air out of the bleeder valve and my PCV valve leaks at those boost levels as well.

The bleeder hole will let air out, as that's its job. You're supposed to remove the MBC when doing a boost leak test. I'd say get a new PCV, or if it's just the threads, put some teflon tape/paste on them and reseal it.


When you tried to lower your AFR using the sliders, did you move them up? If so, that is making it more rich.



I attached 2 files.

One will remove all changes to your fuel sliders, as well as adjustments to the SD table (I ran the last log posted through the spreadsheet - log.2011.07.22-01.elg). If that's an old log, let me know and I'll run the newest one through it.

The second one is for Direct Access table changes (must be done with the key ON but the car not running). I used the Evo mod1 fuel tables and the stock 2g timing tables. This will help keep the timing down, as well as lower the AFR (after a bit of SD table adjustment). Your knock didn't look bad in the last log ( log.2011.07.22-01.elg), but this way we can play it safe, get the AFR dialed in properly, and then we can reupload the 1g timing table if you want, or one of the Evo tables.

 

[Devilsfutbol17]

First of all, thank you guys so much for your help, I usually never get any real technical help for my questions, and you guys are both going above and beyond. Thank you very much.

I will grab some NGK 8s in case I have better luck with them. $10 is cheap to possibly make knock go away, plus if I can get 20psi solid with no knock, I kinda want to bump it up to 25psi. For now I have the bpr 7s in and just bought another set 3 days ago that I haven't put in yet. I think I'm going to make the gap a little smaller and see what that does, now I'm at .028 I believe.

I have yet to dial in a good full 11.8-12 afr, but i know that once I go over 12 I start to get knock. I will try to work my way up with the fuel sliders to get there. I have not replaced my knock sensor, but it appeared to be in good health when I took off my intake manifold a couple weeks ago.

Yeah I didn't want to tap into my BOV line, but it was either that, my map sensor, or my boost gauge/AFPR line. I need to get a vacuum port put into my J pipe. I will get on that for sure.

My PCV valve is a new OEM one that i ordered from Extremepsi, so I don't know what else to do besides try and order some check valves. My old PCV valve leaked a little earlier that my current one.

Last night my AFR's were too high, I thought I made positive adjustments. Today I bumped everything up as you seen in the last log. I just wanted to make sure I was below 12 and see what that did for my knock.

I will try use the files you just uploaded right now. I was going to make those adjustments, but i saw the percentages over 100% and didn't think that I should use that. I will use that VE table, but I think I'm going to bled the cells a little before and after the ones that are recommended to be changed. I will also copy the fuel and timing tables too. Thanks again!

 

[snowborder714]

I have yet to dial in a good full 11.8-12 afr, but i know that once I go over 12 I start to get knock. I will try to work my way up with the fuel sliders to get there. I have not replaced my knock sensor, but it appeared to be in good health when I took off my intake manifold a couple weeks ago.

Work with the DA table (MaxOct) to change your target AFR. Once you have that set, you will work with the MAF Comp sliders to adjust your airflow. The end goal is to have your logged wideband value match up with AFRatioEst.

Yeah I didn't want to tap into my BOV line, but it was either that, my map sensor, or my boost gauge/AFPR line. I need to get a vacuum port put into my J pipe. I will get on that for sure.

I would have said to tap into the AFPR line instead of the BOV line for sure. But if you can get a separate source, all the better.

My PCV valve is a new OEM one that i ordered from Extremepsi, so I don't know what else to do besides try and order some check valves. My old PCV valve leaked a little earlier that my current one.

US Plastics check valve, for sure.

Last night my AFR's were too high, I thought I made positive adjustments. Today I bumped everything up as you seen in the last log. I just wanted to make sure I was below 12 and see what that did for my knock.

Are you saying you tried to richen up your AFR to see if it helped? Or did you try to lean it out? Just want to make sure you understand what you're changing.

I will try use the files you just uploaded right now. I was going to make those adjustments, but i saw the percentages over 100% and didn't think that I should use that. I will use that VE table, but I think I'm going to bled the cells a little before and after the ones that are recommended to be changed. I will also copy the fuel and timing tables too. Thanks again!

I have values that are over 100% and it's not an issue. It's not a good thing to see, but won't cause any problems. And good idea about doing some blending. I forgot to mention that before.

 

[Devilsfutbol17]

Thanks for the prompt reply. Well I just went out and did 8 pulls, sort of. I think I only got one full pull that I didn't get over 2* of timing pulled. Most pulls were all cut short due to knock. With the short pulls that I did do, I ran the spreadsheet and got some pretty good results, although I got lazy and stopped blending. The PLX is matching the estimated pretty well now.

I was still getting knock so on my last two pulls I changed the MaxOct table where I was getting the knock to 10.5, but it didn't help at all. I don't know if turning up the AFRs into the 11's would have helped or not though. After my 8th pull, I started to see some smoke in my headlights so I popped the hood and I saw a little bit of oil around the valve cover bolt that is closest to the drivers headlight but not on or under the T-belt cover. I'm going to check it out tomorrow.

Sorry for the terrible explanation. When I first put my FMIC on last night, my AFR's were in the 12's. So I moved the fuel sliders up, into the positive percentages, but the little changes I made before the officer stopped by did not get me into the 11's. So today during my lunch break I made a pull with the fuel sliders further up in the positive percentages and was able to get under 10 AFR and the knock was then very very minimal.

I am sadly starting to lose hope. I intended on making some passes tomorrow at a track event, but I think I'll just be spectating now. Ill switch my MBC to my mechanical boost gauge and AFPR hose tomorrow. Thanks for the continued help. I'm going to try and drop the gap on my plugs tomorrow . I'm putting up all 8 pulls. The first few logs all i changed was the VE table, but the last two had 10.5 AFRs entered in the DA tables. Thank you again.

 

[Chicken Patty]

I'm positive that your knock is phantom knock. I mean 20psi with what looks like a 2g timing table? I don't see how you would knock on E85 with those settings.

Snowborder, what do you think?

 

[snowborder714]

Looks like real knock to me. I wouldn't expect phantom knock to happen in the higher RPM's.

One thing I'd like to see is to add RawKnock1-4 to your captured and displayed values lists. Also, another 1g owner suggests getting a cooler thermostat. Here's the thread these two comments were from, so it might be worth a read.
ECMTuning User Support Forums


I have 2 things to suggest at this point.
1. Lean your DA table out to 11.0 or 11.5 and see what happens to the knock.
2. Go into the timing sliders and take everything from 3500 RPM and up down 4-5*. This would be a temporary test to see what happens.

I would do these one at a time to see if one works over the other. I'm a bit baffled at this point.

 

[Chicken Patty]

I'm baffled too!

Does the car have excess vibration at higher speeds or something, I don't know, maybe something triggering the knock sensor?

 

[Devilsfutbol17]

There are no abnormal vibrations or sounds that I can hear at WOT. I will try and lean it out some more with the DA tables to 11 or a little higher and then on a separate run try pulling the siders.

I was wondering, the only times I have done WOT pulls and got minimal knock was indeed when my timing table was on the 1g table. Although during those few pulls I was rich as hell, do you think there is a chance the e85 wants a little more timing? I read somewhere that said you actually had to add timing to your gas timing table.

I get off in 5 hours, so ill try those things as well as gap my plugs down to .024
Thanks guys for not giving up on me.

 

[snowborder714]

If pulling timing doesn't help, then try the opposite with the sliders, but maybe only 2-3* upward. I can't say I've ever heard of that but it's worth a try. That should be a safe/easy check. When doing that, I would make sure to keep an eye on timing because if it actually does add timing, you'll want to get off the gas.

 

[Devilsfutbol17]

Alright I'm going to give it a try. Also, I was unable to find the part number for the ngk bp8es and I'm willing to waste 15 bucks on some plugs if someone thinks it could possibly help. I'm gonna gap mine tighter first but I would like to have some 8s available to me. Thanks

 

[Chicken Patty]

BR8ES is the plugs. Not sure if they will help but they are more appropiate. That or the 7's.

 

[Devilsfutbol17]

I checked my base timing, it was good. The spark plug on cylinder one looked kinda shitty, ill put up a pic of it. 1g timing table didn't do well. I swapped in another bpr7es. I gapped them all to .024.

My estimate and plx kinda deviated a little bit, so I did some more excel sheets to help it. I'm uploading my last log that I just did, its really wierd. It seems like between 3k and 4k I pick up knock, but from then on its solid. I let off and then got back on it and it didn't knock up to 7k

I picked up some ngk 8s also, might give them a shot. Well I'm off to the track, I might try and do some pulls and tune it up. Wish me luck. As always, thank you for your suggestions so far.

13.5 at 102mph. I'm pulling 8.2% on all sliders to lean it out a bit.

Well I managed a 13.2 at 96mph. My netbook tweaked and I didn't get a log of it. So I have no idea what my AFRs were, all I know is that I didn't get over 3* of retardation from knock because my cel never came on. The pull felt very good though. I think I have something wrong in my setup due to this knock that I'm getting on e85. I'm going to begin to research knock causes now. Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[Chicken Patty]

I set my CEL to turn on if it reaches 1* of knock retardation. Knock on E85 may be a bit on the late side, so I have less of a threshold for my knock CEL on E85 as opposed to pump gas.

If you can't figure out this knock issue, I suggest dyno tuning bro. I would put the knock sensor to read above whatever you rev to so it doesnt pick up any knock and start with a conservative timing level, then tune for MBT. If you get at least 8-10whp per every degree of timing, you are good, once you start seeing 7whp, 5whp then you know that the motor is not liking it a lot. That's when you stop and maybe back it out a degree or two.

If you follow that method and tune for MBT, forget what your knock sensor says. However, your issue puzzles me as I have had it before.

***here's something***

I had a problem with getting over 3-4* of knock retardation at above 6500 RPM's. Back then I was on pump so my buddy told me to put race gas and see if it goes away. Well, it didn't. I swapped turbo/dumptube and the knock never came back.

Now I'm getting some knock but at anything over 24-25lbs, but not sure if real or knock, probably real due to running pretty high boost on a 50 trim and not only that, doesn't happen at lower boost. So I gotta look into that, I will probably just head to the dyno though and tune it there.

 

[gofer]

I know I'm popping into this thread for the first time but something needs to be said. I want to know why you thought this SD VE map was an appropriate way to tune your car?

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Reset your SD VE map and start tuning idle, then cruise, once you've got the upper left portion of it good then move onto WOT. That thing looks like a 4 year old dunked their body in finger paint and tried smearing what looks to be a picture of a dogs head. Theres a right way and a wrong way to tune a car running SD, whoever did the above did it the wrong way. Nice and SMOOTH is the key word here, look at my SD VE map after the tune on the dyno as an example.

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[Devilsfutbol17]

I had my CEL set to go off at 2* retardation, but my friend that was also running changed his to 3* so I decided to as well.

The only dyno that I could get to is only a two wheel drive one, but apparently there is a AWD dyno that is being built right now that would be 5 mins away from my house. Right now I can only use the ecmlink hp estimator. Hopefully I will be able to use it. I feel like a retard, but I keep forgetting what MBT means for some reason. I know its something something torque.

Oh and for spark plugs, English Racing was running bpr7es plugs at .020 gap on their talon and they were running around 30psi I believe on an E3 16g, so thats what gapped mine to.

The only turbo I could swap to is a spare 14b that i have laying around, I could possibly try that.

As for my VE map, well I did use the SDadjust tool to dial in the idle and cruise and for the other values, they were all from using the WOT tuning spreadsheet but with no blending. I was doing a bunch of pulls the other night and just kept changing it based off the spread sheet and didn't do any smoothing. Thanks for the replies

 

[livedsm4g63]

I know I'm popping into this thread for the first time but something needs to be said. I want to know why you thought this SD VE map was an appropriate way to tune your car?

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Reset your SD VE map and start tuning idle, then cruise, once you've got the upper left portion of it good then move onto WOT. That thing looks like a 4 year old dunked their body in finger paint and tried smearing what looks to be a picture of a dogs head. Theres a right way and a wrong way to tune a car running SD, whoever did the above did it the wrong way. Nice and SMOOTH is the key word here, look at my SD VE map after the tune on the dyno as an example.

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Wow when i first saw this top map I about pooped myself. Reset the map and start over.

You also need to understand that once you start seeing values over 100 something is wrong with how you set up the injectors. Mainly its deadtime, however sometimes it can be the global as well.

That is however, if you are still using the spreadsheet from ecmlink forums.