Running Rich

[gofer]

Ok, so here are 2 logs with what gofer told me to add. any input on them would be great. hopefully i did them correct. Gofer i have a new throttle body coming with the TPS and IAC. so my idle problem should go away.

Everything looks like its doing what its supposed to which is always a good feeling. I see your still throwing the alternator CEL, still running your stock 450cc injectors, and haven't installed that WB but one thing at a time Brian, I know your busy doing the family thing.

Add one more thing to your captured/displayed values... ClosedLoop and start your log while its idling and let it warm up (coolant temp 180* +) then go for a drive, keeping the same log going. While your driving you'll want to try to keep the car in ClosedLoop operation as much as possible for a good MAFComp log. To keep it in ClosedLoop I like to drive in hilly areas or going more than 50% throttle onto interstate on ramps. We're not trying to do WOT tuning so don't go mashing the gas pedal, just let the engine see some boost.

The good news is I KNOW that your ISC is bad just but looking at the logged ISCPosition value you have logged in link. Next on your plate is the Evo injector install, WB o2 install, & new alternator? (and take care of the kids)

 

[whiteboyz]

Everything looks like its doing what its supposed to which is always a good feeling. I see your still throwing the alternator CEL, still running your stock 450cc injectors, and haven't installed that WB but one thing at a time Brian, I know your busy doing the family thing.

Add one more thing to your captured/displayed values... ClosedLoop and start your log while its idling and let it warm up (coolant temp 180* +) then go for a drive, keeping the same log going. While your driving you'll want to try to keep the car in ClosedLoop operation as much as possible for a good MAFComp log. To keep it in ClosedLoop I like to drive in hilly areas or going more than 50% throttle onto interstate on ramps. We're not trying to do WOT tuning so don't go mashing the gas pedal, just let the engine see some boost.

The good news is I KNOW that your ISC is bad just but looking at the logged ISCPosition value you have logged in link. Next on your plate is the Evo injector install, WB o2 install, & new alternator? (and take care of the kids)

, i'm tryn bro. Taking the kids to see alice in wonderland tonight. So after that im heading to the garage to install the WB, and the 510's. I will be able to uy a new alternator next week if funds allow it. And fix my pesky coolant leak.

Ok i can add that, just my neighbors hate my car. haha the idle and how loud it is . they havent said anything YET. but they stare at me all the time. pfft on them. tonight i'll add closedloop and let it warm up liek u said and take it for a drive and not in WOT.

Well thats good. the TB with all the sensors should be here in a couple days.

Would the relay for the alternator cause it to throw that code as well ? as the wires on the relay are broken and corroded. and im going to replace it soon, just have to wire one up. My oldest is happy that the car is running again. she calls it the doggy nose car she says the front bumper with the eagle emblem gone looks like a dogy nose

Tryn to watch the graphs while driving is umm crazy and toooooo many have the same colors

 

[whiteboyz]

Ok been very busy with the kids and after school activities. So here is a little update, Got the TB and the sensors on. my loping idle went away. now im just dealing with almost stalling when i let off the gas. my wb says im running lean when this happens as well as i am lucky if i have 10 for vacum. so maybe my MAF is dirty or bad. I will be doing a little tinkering to try n figure out my problem. But i will keep every one updated as much as possible.

 

[codeofdastreets]

Wut type of maf are you using?? 2g?? It sounds like something could be rong wit ## maf if I was you I would change ## maf nd see wit the a/f readings are..Also if you have a 2g maf it should not be vented to the atmosphere, this would make ## car run rich..

 

[gofer]

Ok been very busy with the kids and after school activities. So here is a little update, Got the TB and the sensors on. my loping idle went away. now im just dealing with almost stalling when i let off the gas. my wb says im running lean when this happens as well as i am lucky if i have 10 for vacum. so maybe my MAF is dirty or bad. I will be doing a little tinkering to try n figure out my problem. But i will keep every one updated as much as possible.

Log your MAFRaw value at idle, my guess is your seeing a 35Hz or lower value there when it should be around 45 or 50Hz. If it is reading low that suggests you have a vacuum leak up around your TB or IM so check ALL your connections. You just replaced that TB so make sure those vacuum lines going to the top of it are good to go. With an idle like this it could also be a vacuum leak between the MAF and the turbo so check your intake... You wouldn't happen to have a catch can setup would you?

If all else fails, like codeofdastreets mentioned, your MAF is the next thing I'd pull off and replace. If you need one for a good price PM me, I have a spare laying around...

If you could, please post a idle log after the cars completely warmed up.

 

[whiteboyz]

ok 3 logs 1 of warm up, forgot the coolant =[ thats why it got so hot. 2nd is a drive, 3rd is tryn to boost.

 

[gofer]

ok 3 logs 1 of warm up, forgot the coolant =[ thats why it got so hot. 2nd is a drive, 3rd is tryn to boost.

I checked the logs and something is definitely wrong still. I don't think its your front o2 sensor because it looks like its trying to cycle, its just not because your running so rich.

When was the last time you checked to make sure it was timed correctly? I ask because from looking at the logs your timing is CRAZY just while its idling. I hope your timing belt didn't slip on the cam gears/crank. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/306607-1g-2g-quick-timing-belt-alignment-check.html

I'm sorry to hear your car left you stranded in the rain tonight, leave it to a DSM. The thing that worries me is that you said you checked spark and fuel (good job btw) and both were good, the only things thats left is checking your timing. From looking at your logs though, I hate to say it but thats more than likely what it is. Just follow the above write-up, even take pictures of the results if you have to so you can get clarification. Just cross your fingers you didn't bend any valves if something did happen with the t-belt.

Sorry man.

 

[Calan]

Something is definitely very strange here.

In the first log (123), you start cycling in and out of open loop with the throttle at 2%. Actually, everything is cycling. At first I thought you shut the car off and Link was just showing some strange numbers, but the more I look at it the more I'm baffled.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

In the second log (1234), at about 65 seconds the car again goes into open loop but stays there. At the same time, RPM's momentarily drop to 0 (after being in the 300 range for a bit) but it doesn't really look like the car died.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Unless I'm missing something obvious, I'm at a complete loss as to what I'm looking at here.

 

[whiteboyz]

Calan, a couple times the car did stall on me and i just quickly restarted it. and the log continued to run. so that might be what your seeing. not to sure. But it will run lean at idle then as i start going it will go rich sometimes.

I just got a ride down to my car and i pulled the inj to see if i was getting any response and yes they are firing. just wanted to double check that. the car tryd to start did a urp and that was it just went back to cranking.

I have no way to check the timing where the car is at. i will be towing it home later today. My buddy said last night that it sounded like spark knock. but spark knock is due to ignition timing correct ? and 2g's arent adjustable right ? and it should be 5deg BTDC if im correct ?

Oh some times my T Belt is tight then it goes loose ? is this common on our cars ?

 

[Calan]

This looks like some type of intermittent wiring or ECU issue to me, but I'm not positive. I've just never seen the ECU cycle between open and closed loop that consistently. Maybe someone with a bit more Link expertise might pop in and put another set of eyes on it

I think at the very least, you should log all the basic values and make sure they are set properly. From that ^^^, it looks like your TPS is off a bit. I would log the ISC also, and get the basic start-up adjustments right first (base timing, ISC/BISS, TPS, etc).

EDIT:

On the RPM/TPS tab... check the "Enable TPS Adjustments" box, and then check the "Simulate Idle switch from TPS". Then log your ISC position.

 

[Calan]

Brian,

In the interest of time, please list all the things you have replaced and what you have tested.

 

[whiteboyz]

Brian,

In the interest of time, please list all the things you have replaced and what you have tested.

Calan,
I rebuilt he botom ed with new pistons rings, oem rods, bearings, head is the same with the 264 cams. I replaced the knock sensor, throttle body, ISC, tps sensor, Turbo with a ebay 16g, new plugs(had to get champions) no ngk's in stock.

When i first got the car a yr ago, some one had an safc installed but they took it out and left the harness in. so i just disconected the harness and taped up the wires. but there are like jumper looking things with clear rubber over them. do they all have this ?

I have 2 other ecu's but they are sock 2g eprom's with out link.

 

[snowborder714]

I would suggest getting a new front o2 sensor, doing another BLT to be sure, check timing (car off and on), zero out MAF Comp sliders (shouldn't be that high on a stock 2g MAS), fix your high coolant temp. issue if you haven't already, and try again.

What kind of Champion plugs - copper? And gapped properly to .028"?

 

[whiteboyz]

i tested the CAS, crank sensor, tps. yes it is at 2-3% when im not on the gas. tryn to work that problem out. i am total loss on what to check next besides timing, as i will have to do that later today when i go get the car.

I would suggest getting a new front o2 sensor, doing another BLT to be sure, check timing (car off and on), zero out MAF Comp sliders (shouldn't be that high on a stock 2g MAS), fix your high coolant temp. issue if you haven't already, and try again.

i tryd to to a BLT but it would not build pressure so i think the valves were open.so i will have to wait till i get the car to my house. and i will see what i can do.

um they were just reg champions, no gaped to 30

snowboarder, when you say check timing with car off and on. you mean the timing marks and not with a gun ? or ?

 

[steve]

It looks like the onset of idle surging in the first log.

Perhaps the IPS isn't closing all the time when the throttle is closed or the cable is too tight. You'll note that ThrotPos dropped to 0% right as it starts surging and that's why the ECU is flipping between open and closed loop in sync with the injector cutoff.

The idle speed is way too high considering the target is 850. I suspect it's dieing because the ISC is run all the way in trying to lower the idle speed and the engine chokes off.

 

[snowborder714]

This is how I set my TPS.

Unbolt throttle cable bracket from intake manifold. Let some slack in it and then start pulling it taught. Pull it just tight enough that it doesn't open the throttle plate, but so there is no more slack in the line. Tighten down bolts. Open throttle plate by gas pedal (go to WOT) and verify you can't open the throttle plate by hand (via throttle cable bracket) any further. If you can, redo the steps above.

Move floor mat out from under pedal. Start a stream in link (car off, key in ON position). Loosen both bolts holding it down. Have TPSVolts and ThrotPos be the only 2 items displaying in the graph. Move the TPS around until you get as close as possible to .63v and tighten down bolts. Make sure to watch the voltage as you tighten them down so it doesn't accidentally move. Then push the gas to 100% and see what the voltage reads (should be very close to 5v). Stop stream.

Then start a new stream let it sit for a few seconds on 0% throttle, push it to 100% at a moderate pace, then release back to 0% at a moderate pace. Stop stream. Right click on stream and choose TPS adjust. It should auto populate settings and all you have to do is click Save to ECU.

Start a new stream and verify at closed throttle you're seeing 0% and .63v and at WOT you're seeing 100% and 5v.

 

[whiteboyz]

It looks like the onset of idle surging in the first log.

Perhaps the IPS isn't closing all the time when the throttle is closed or the cable is too tight. You'll note that ThrotPos dropped to 0% right as it starts surging and that's why the ECU is flipping between open and closed loop in sync with the injector cutoff.

The idle speed is way too high considering the target is 850. I suspect it's dieing because the ISC is run all the way in trying to lower the idle speed and the engine chokes off.

Steve, I s there a way to fix this ? i have adjusted the throttle cable with a little bit more slack the first time.

Yes the idle is high even after i selected 850, and i could not understand why.

This is how I set my TPS.

Unbolt throttle cable bracket from intake manifold. Let some slack in it and then start pulling it taught. Pull it just tight enough that it doesn't open the throttle plate, but so there is no more slack in the line. Tighten down bolts. Open throttle plate by gas pedal (go to WOT) and verify you can't open the throttle plate by hand (via throttle cable bracket) any further. If you can, redo the steps above.

Move floor mat out from under pedal. Start a stream in link (car off, key in ON position). Loosen both bolts holding it down. Have TPSVolts and ThrotPos be the only 2 items displaying in the graph. Move the TPS around until you get as close as possible to .63v and tighten down bolts. Make sure to watch the voltage as you tighten them down so it doesn't accidentally move. Then push the gas to 100% and see what the voltage reads (should be very close to 5v). Stop stream.

Then start a new stream let it sit for a few seconds on 0% throttle, push it to 100% at a moderate pace, then release back to 0% at a moderate pace. Stop stream. Right click on stream and choose TPS adjust. It should auto populate settings and all you have to do is click Save to ECU.

Start a new stream and verify at closed throttle you're seeing 0% and .63v and at WOT you're seeing 100% and 5v.

Snowboarder, Thank you. i will do this as soon as i get my car towed home.

Oh for the maf, I see no option for stock 2g maf, only hacked 2g, 1 i think, evo8 maf.

 

[Calan]

You'll note that ThrotPos dropped to 0% right as it starts surging and that's why the ECU is flipping between open and closed loop in sync with the injector cutoff.

That makes perfect sense. I guess I've just never payed attention to what the ECU was doing with open and closed loop cycling when the idle is surging.

 

[snowborder714]

Leave the MAF drop down as is, but right click on the graph and zero out the adjustments for MAF Comp.

Have you adjusted the BISS at all since installing the throttle body?

 

[whiteboyz]

Leave the MAF drop down as is, but right click on the graph and zero out the adjustments for MAF Comp.

Have you adjusted the BISS at all since installing the throttle body?

Zero will be level right across the board correct ? also the biss screw is messd up i have to change it out.

 

[snowborder714]

Yes, at the zero line. If you right click, there's an auto option to zero all sliders out, which would be the easiest way to do so.

Make sure you change that out as that is probably affecting your idle. Get a new one with a new o-ring.

 

[steve]

There should be at least 1mm of slack in the cable when closed.

I'm not a fan of adjusting the 2G TPS by voltage. Unless there is a problem with the TPS following the factory procedure of setting it by where the IPS switches should work for both DSMLink and the factory software. DSMLink can log the IPSPosition which saves you from having to disconnect the TPS and hook up a meter.

There are tons of threads on idle surging, the bottom line is find out why you have too much air bypassing the closed throttle butterfly and causing the fast idle.

That makes perfect sense. I guess I've just never payed attention to what the ECU was doing with open and closed loop cycling when the idle is surging.

Neither have I but it's what I expect backed up by what the log is showing.

 

[whiteboyz]

Yes, at the zero line. If you right click, there's an auto option to zero all sliders out, which would be the easiest way to do so.

Make sure you change that out as that is probably affecting your idle. Get a new one with a new o-ring.

Ok, i will do that then hit save to ecu. I checked with advance auto parts they do not carry them nor can thy get it. =[

 

[snowborder714]

Check with one of the vendors on here (ExtremePSI, JNZ Tuning, STM) and they can get the items for you.

 

[whiteboyz]

There should be at least 1mm of slack in the cable when closed.

I'm not a fan of adjusting the 2G TPS by voltage. Unless there is a problem with the TPS following the factory procedure of setting it by where the IPS switches should work for both DSMLink and the factory software. DSMLink can log the IPSPosition which saves you from having to disconnect the TPS and hook up a meter.

There are tons of threads on idle surging, the bottom line is find out why you have too much air bypassing the closed throttle butterfly and causing the fast idle.



Neither have I but it's what I expect backed up by what the log is showing.

Steve,
Could having the EGR valve vacuum lines bypassed and not having the EGR blocked off cause this ? also i have the MAP sensor deleted, But from what i understand the map only checks to see if the EGR valve is working on our cars and that's it. I know on cars with out a MAF the MAP actually looks for vacuum and the ecu uses it's readings to adjust ignition timing and fuel enrichment. or does it do this on our cars also ?

Check with one of the vendors on here (ExtremePSI, JNZ Tuning, STM) and they can get the items for you.

Ok will do, I will check with STM as they are closer to me then the rest.