What was the first DSM into the 10's.

[Phil1320]

Some of you guys are showing some age. Don't break a hip getting out of the ol dsm. I really am enjoying the history lesson.

yeah, unfortunately, we do age......

.....I will hopefully have some more info up here soon.......glad you're enjoying all the info....

I belive I own these very wheels now! I got them from buschur at the shootout this year and I'm pretty sure he said they came off this car.

Very cool stuff! I used to own a set of 3 piece, Japan made, Amercian Racing wheels that I got from Brent Rau after he went full race with his Eclipse and went to the TE37's. So, I know what it feels like to have wheels that used be on an icon car in the DSM world, Congrats, those are bad-ass wheels!

 

[kiggly]

As far as the "who was first in the 10's, 9's, etc....I only consider unibody AWD or FWD. I do not consider RWD cars in these categories. But, that's me. A DSM has not gone 6's yet.......

....the quickest DSM is 7.70.

This is definitely murky ground. Do we still consider a 4-link live axle rear suspension car an AWD unibody, or do we only include OEM driveline configuration cars? I would keep John in the front and consider his car a DSM for this conversation's sake. I guess these rules would also put me as 2nd place.

Fuel type swaps definitely are a big deal too. As the alcohols have come into play people are picking up a lot of power. I'd almost be inclined to group it by gas vs alcohol as well.

I guess we could subdivide this as many times as we like to make everybody a winner. At some point it is just semantics.

we've got Extreme's 8.63 being matched and passed. Barely.

I wouldn't consider 8.35 barely quicker than 8.63. Their 8.63 was a hell of a long-standing record though! I'll put more space between my ET's and their old times next season. Gary Marsh's FWD record held for a very long time as well.

Kevin

 

[Phil1320]

This is definitely murky ground. Do we still consider a 4-link live axle rear suspension car an AWD unibody, or do we only include OEM driveline configuration cars? I would keep John in the front and consider his car a DSM for this conversation's sake. I guess these rules would also put me as 2nd place.

Fuel type swaps definitely are a big deal too. As the alcohols have come into play people are picking up a lot of power. I'd almost be inclined to group it by gas vs alcohol as well.

I guess we could subdivide this as many times as we like to make everybody a winner. At some point it is just semantics.



I wouldn't consider 8.35 barely quicker than 8.63. Their 8.63 was a hell of a long-standing record though! I'll put more space between my ET's and their old times next season. Gary Marsh's FWD record held for a very long time as well.

Kevin

No doubt three tenths is pretty large when in the 8's for sure. And I didn't mean for it to sound as if it's not. I suppose the car that came to mind when I wrote that was showdowns, sorry bout that. I have been on your threads giving props every time you've gone quicker recently. The 8.87 was the record that Extreme held for quite some time.....Shep had already surpassed that when Extreme came back out and hit the 8.63 if my memory serves me correctly(which it may not) and for some reason stopped there.

I don't know everyones exact chassis set up at all, I'm not as into it as I was 10 years back, or even 5 years, but a tubular rear subframe that bolts to the factory unibody still qualifies as a DSM to me, but true a non DSM rearend is something to question.....so, true, this could get broken down into many categories for sure. I guess in the end what I mean is that I don't consider Buschur's 1G RWD talon to be the first DSM in the 9's, or any RWD tube chassis car to be the first DSM in the 8's. DSM's never had a stock RWD config, so it rules them out for me.

first DSM in:
11's = Buschur
10's = Switzer by a about a week, but he was
9's = Glazar
8's = Glazar
7's = Shep

If not for Switzer, Extreme would own three of those categories which is pretty huge........and yes, I was always pro Extreme back in those days. But, it's fact. Too bad he didn't stick with it as I believe he could be on top still, or challenging Sheps numbers anyway.
This is only my opinion as others may view it differently, including, obvously, Buschur himself.

I'm sure you will go quicker next year Kevin and I'll be happy to see it. You're definitely making big ground. You bring up very interesting points about how this should all be classified. And, I am buying into the GAS vs. Alcohol thing. I guess I've been thinking more along the lines of the physical state of the car rather than things like that, but, for sure a drastic difference in approach.

I still haven't found my lists, thought I found them this past weekend but no-go. I will post then up when I get them. I think it will be cool, sheets from when all DSMs were DSMs. Names like Derby, Lowe, Maynard, Tichy, Croft, Hallman, Shep, Krejei, Plebani, Hill, Culotta, Glazar, Holmes..........etc. to name a few....

 

[1fastlaser]

No doubt three tenths is pretty large when in the 8's for sure. And I didn't mean for it to sound as if it's not. I suppose the car that came to mind when I wrote that was showdowns, sorry bout that. I have been on your threads giving props every time you've gone quicker recently. The 8.87 was the record that Extreme held for quite some time.....Shep had already surpassed that when Extreme came back out and hit the 8.63 if my memory serves me correctly(which it may not) and for some reason stopped there.

I don't know everyones exact chassis set up at all, I'm not as into it as I was 10 years back, or even 5 years, but a tubular rear subframe that bolts to the factory unibody still qualifies as a DSM to me, but true a non DSM rearend is something to question.....so, true, this could get broken down into many categories for sure. I guess in the end what I mean is that I don't consider Buschur's 1G RWD talon to be the first DSM in the 9's, or any RWD tube chassis car to be the first DSM in the 8's. DSM's never had a stock RWD config, so it rules them out for me.

first DSM in:
11's = Buschur
10's = Switzer by a about a week, but he was
9's = Glazar
8's = Glazar
7's = Shep

If not for Switzer, Extreme would own three of those categories which is pretty huge........and yes, I was always pro Extreme back in those days. But, it's fact. Too bad he didn't stick with it as I believe he could be on top still, or challenging Sheps numbers anyway.
This is only my opinion as others may view it differently, including, obvously, Buschur himself.

I'm sure you will go quicker next year Kevin and I'll be happy to see it. You're definitely making big ground. You bring up very interesting points about how this should all be classified. And, I am buying into the GAS vs. Alcohol thing. I guess I've been thinking more along the lines of the physical state of the car rather than things like that, but, for sure a drastic difference in approach.

I still haven't found my lists, thought I found them this past weekend but no-go. I will post then up when I get them. I think it will be cool, sheets from when all DSMs were DSMs. Names like Derby, Lowe, Maynard, Tichy, Croft, Hallman, Shep, Krejei, Plebani, Hill, Culotta, Glazar, Holmes..........etc. to name a few....

I remember when they first starting going to 4 slicks...I was like .

Sean Ivey was also up there battling when the race to 8s was going on.

 

[Phil1320]

I remember when they first starting going to 4 slicks...I was like .

Sean Ivey was also up there battling when the race to 8s was going on.

That was killer! It was definitely cool to be around to watch these transitions in the DSM community. Yes, Sean Ivey was definitely moving back then, you're right. There are quite a few notable guys for sure.....

 

[SBstar]

The history here is awesome. It's nice to look back and see where we came from. I always feel fortunate that I at least know a little bit and got into the game early enough to have at least "heard about" some of the old guys. So many kids nowadays have no idea who the early pioneers were in this game. Right now some don't even have any idea who Shep is!

As far as breaking down records, it's extremely tough, opinions are like...well you know the rest, everyone has them. Laying down good times is impressive no matter how you do it. I'll admit to having my favorites (I've never given a whole lot of credit to the RWD guys either), but the respect is still there nonetheless.

 

[Phil1320]

The history here is awesome. It's nice to look back and see where we came from. I always feel fortunate that I at least know a little bit and got into the game early enough to have at least "heard about" some of the old guys. So many kids nowadays have no idea who the early pioneers were in this game. Right now some don't even have any idea who Shep is!

As far as breaking down records, it's extremely tough, opinions are like...well you know the rest, everyone has them. Laying down good times is impressive no matter how you do it. I'll admit to having my favorites (I've never given a whole lot of credit to the RWD guys either), but the respect is still there nonetheless.

No doubt it is really cool. Correct opinions are like......yeah. But, we've all got 'em.

I'll throw out as much info as I can hear over time.....

....I just about missed what I would call the 1ST segment of the DSMs. I got into this as stated elswhere in July of 1996.....2G's were already in production...but, alot of the "original" DSMrs were still in it so I got to learn a bit about them as I was looking to buy my Talon and on into '97-'98. The '98 Shootout was pretty packed solid with all the big names. Buschur's RWD 1G debuted there. Brent Rau's Eclipse was still a street car for instance....

I need to gather my stuff and maybe I can start a blog on it. Not sure if the guy that originally posted this thread was thinking it would turn into this. Either way, I'll post here or start a HISTORY thread and will welcome any who have info from back in the old days, to toss it in the mix. I don't know all, but I do have a considerable amount of info.

I totally give credit to the RWD guys, I'm all about 4G power, but, for those configured cars to be considered in the same basic DSM categories of speed is a little crazy to me........

....like someone said, we could all be record holders if we broke things down enough.....that's more of a joke than anything, but it could get a little out of hand.

 

[1fastlaser]

I have have home video tapes of some events here at my local track "atco". Shep was going 10.2s or so, still on drag radials. I thought that was awesome. Sean was there battling it out with him, and the supras which were still not rediculous like they are now.

Vinny Ten was the man with the fastest supra which I think was low 9s .

I sometimes like looking back at older post on the forums. I laugh when I see my old post, try it you will laugh at what you use to say. But it should show you how far you come, and how you use to be the stupid newbie!

Man 60-1s were waaaay to big to be on a street car, and 720cc injector were as big as some guys were going.

I remember when I put a 57 trim on my car with 680s and said thats it, then I finally put cams in. I was done didnt wanna go ferther. These cars are a virus. I guess it didnt work since im 2.4/gt42/1550cc injector street car .

 

[ArcticTsi]

Jose!!! I remember all of that, and have done extensive research on the Archer Brothers and the road racing they did. Unfortunately, I got into DSMs summer of '96...

Hey Phil, good to see you back in full swing again. I guess we are showing our age to alot of the young guys out there. But it is always fun to pass on the DSM knowledge we have. I got into the DSM scene a little sooner, around late 92'. Prior to that I was AutoXing a 510. But I also have alot of old print outs, magazines and various clippings in boxes I have in storage in the states. Real early 90's stuff on T/E/L makes.I'll have to get some stuff scanned in whenever I make it back. I did hook up an old PC of mine and found some e-mails from the old DSM and DSS groups I subscribed to. I know the old guys will enjoy the read. This one in particluar, from May 1995, was a write up on one of the early DSM meets we had and the first where buschur hit the 11's. I did remember reading one time about a guy who had hit a 11.9X something at a test & tune night before this one from buschur, but it was a random posting on one of our news groups and could not confirm it. If I remember too the guy had said it was with a NOS shot. Some notable names on the list of times for the event. Also throwing in a picture of Hallman's ride, which I always loved.

enjoy,
Jose

***message begins***
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 19:00:42 CDT
From: Bill Lawrence <[email protected]>
Subject: Shootout
Message-ID: <#2>

Well, the Shootout turned out GREAT! I left Oklahoma Wednesday and
got up to Dave's Wednesday night. It was raining. It also rained on
Thursday. Early Friday morning, it cleared up, and was a beautiful
day. Almost everyone got a good sunburn. We did have a head wind
though at the track of about 15 mph. I figure it got up to 75 degrees.
Saturday was also nice, but a bit more sticky. High was in the 70s.
After everyone left on Sunday, it was raining again. We really lucked
out with the weather.

We ended up having around 47 cars. There were a few no-shows. Just for
comparisons sake two years ago, Dave had 2 cars and 4 people (Dave,
myself, Greg Di Rocco and Dean Bradley). Last year, we had 19 cars
and about 25 people. This year with 47 cars and well over 50 people,
was by far the best. Lets hope for 100 cars next year. This year we
had about 25 AWDs, 15 FWDs, 2 Galants, and 2 non-turbos. No 3000GTs
showed up. There was one 5.0 there. He got his ass kicked by one of
the Galants.

The Norwalk track was awesome! We had the track to ourselves for 6
hours. I think only one person (Jose from NJ) had serious problems with
stuff breaking. Besides him, I would say 75% of the people there
including myself set personal records! Dave ran an incredible 11.37
at 124 on the bottle. He only had 50 hp jets in too! Greg ran a 11.61
on the bottle. I told Greg, he was lucky I didn't run the bottle!!

Off the bottle, Dave B ran an 11.82 for the fastest! The big surprise
of the day was the 11.90 from James Kaz's car. He had not run better
than 12.6s this season so far. Many, many cars ran in the 12s. Even the
bone stock cars were running high 14s.

There were two AWD cars there (Marc Hallman's and John Shepherd's) who
ran mid 12s with no VPC or upgraded turbos!!! Quite an achivement!
They were both 92s though. If I ever buy another DSM AWD, it will be
a 92! They seem to run the best!!! The two mentioned cars above took
1st and 2nd in the Stock Appearing class, with 3rd place going to
Chris Croft.

Here are everyones best times: (OFF NOS)

Dave Buschur 11.82 @ 118.6
James Kaz 11.90 @ 116.3
Greg Di Rocco 12.01 @ 114.3
Bill Lawrence 12.16 @ 113.4
Jeff Hill 12.21 @ 114.8
Randy Burgraff 12.35 @ 110.5
Doug Derby 12.45 @ 109.3
Marc Hallman 12.57 @ 108.9
Dennis Smoyer 12.60 @ 107.1
John Shepherd 12.61 @ 107.1
Keith Anderson 12.70 @ 109.4
Jim Palczynski 12.93 @ 103.0
Ray Parks 12.95 @ 105.1
Andy Glaister 13.03 @ 105.6
Chris Croft 13.09 @ 104.1
Darryl Hudson 13.23 @ 102.1
Mike Bryant 13.37 @ 102.7
Bob Hayworth 13.46 @ 104.2
Al Blaha 13.57 @ 100.5
Jim Mc Kenna 13.60 @ 105.4 (FWD)
Sean Glazar 13.69 @ 99.1

***message ends***

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[olmytsi]

Great thread!

Someone mentioned Plebani, hes local and always comes out to the car "meets" in his 4g63 porsche now sporting something like a 35r, lovely car

 

[Phil1320]

Hey Phil, good to see you back in full swing again. I guess we are showing our age to alot of the young guys out there. But it is always fun to pass on the DSM knowledge we have. I got into the DSM scene a little sooner, around late 92'. Prior to that I was AutoXing a 510. But I also have alot of old print outs, magazines and various clippings in boxes I have in storage in the states. Real early 90's stuff on T/E/L makes.I'll have to get some stuff scanned in whenever I make it back. I did hook up an old PC of mine and found some e-mails from the old DSM and DSS groups I subscribed to. I know the old guys will enjoy the read. This one in particluar, from May 1995, was a write up on one of the early DSM meets we had and the first where buschur hit the 11's. I did remember reading one time about a guy who had hit a 11.9X something at a test & tune night before this one from buschur, but it was a random posting on one of our news groups and could not confirm it. If I remember too the guy had said it was with a NOS shot. Some notable names on the list of times for the event. Also throwing in a picture of Hallman's ride, which I always loved.

enjoy,
Jose

***message begins***
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 19:00:42 CDT
From: Bill Lawrence <[email protected]>
Subject: Shootout
Message-ID: <#2>

Well, the Shootout turned out GREAT! I left Oklahoma Wednesday and
got up to Dave's Wednesday night. It was raining. It also rained on
Thursday. Early Friday morning, it cleared up, and was a beautiful
day. Almost everyone got a good sunburn. We did have a head wind
though at the track of about 15 mph. I figure it got up to 75 degrees.
Saturday was also nice, but a bit more sticky. High was in the 70s.
After everyone left on Sunday, it was raining again. We really lucked
out with the weather.

We ended up having around 47 cars. There were a few no-shows. Just for
comparisons sake two years ago, Dave had 2 cars and 4 people (Dave,
myself, Greg Di Rocco and Dean Bradley). Last year, we had 19 cars
and about 25 people. This year with 47 cars and well over 50 people,
was by far the best. Lets hope for 100 cars next year. This year we
had about 25 AWDs, 15 FWDs, 2 Galants, and 2 non-turbos. No 3000GTs
showed up. There was one 5.0 there. He got his ass kicked by one of
the Galants.

The Norwalk track was awesome! We had the track to ourselves for 6
hours. I think only one person (Jose from NJ) had serious problems with
stuff breaking. Besides him, I would say 75% of the people there
including myself set personal records! Dave ran an incredible 11.37
at 124 on the bottle. He only had 50 hp jets in too! Greg ran a 11.61
on the bottle. I told Greg, he was lucky I didn't run the bottle!!

Off the bottle, Dave B ran an 11.82 for the fastest! The big surprise
of the day was the 11.90 from James Kaz's car. He had not run better
than 12.6s this season so far. Many, many cars ran in the 12s. Even the
bone stock cars were running high 14s.

There were two AWD cars there (Marc Hallman's and John Shepherd's) who
ran mid 12s with no VPC or upgraded turbos!!! Quite an achivement!
They were both 92s though. If I ever buy another DSM AWD, it will be
a 92! They seem to run the best!!! The two mentioned cars above took
1st and 2nd in the Stock Appearing class, with 3rd place going to
Chris Croft.

Here are everyones best times: (OFF NOS)

Dave Buschur 11.82 @ 118.6
James Kaz 11.90 @ 116.3
Greg Di Rocco 12.01 @ 114.3
Bill Lawrence 12.16 @ 113.4
Jeff Hill 12.21 @ 114.8
Randy Burgraff 12.35 @ 110.5
Doug Derby 12.45 @ 109.3
Marc Hallman 12.57 @ 108.9
Dennis Smoyer 12.60 @ 107.1
John Shepherd 12.61 @ 107.1
Keith Anderson 12.70 @ 109.4
Jim Palczynski 12.93 @ 103.0
Ray Parks 12.95 @ 105.1
Andy Glaister 13.03 @ 105.6
Chris Croft 13.09 @ 104.1
Darryl Hudson 13.23 @ 102.1
Mike Bryant 13.37 @ 102.7
Bob Hayworth 13.46 @ 104.2
Al Blaha 13.57 @ 100.5
Jim Mc Kenna 13.60 @ 105.4 (FWD)
Sean Glazar 13.69 @ 99.1

***message ends***

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Thanks Jose! So, you saw my thread?! Cool. We are showing our age for sure....but, that's ok, I like that we've been around for most of it all!

Awesome email from Bill Lawrence! I remember many of those names for sure. Funny that the slowest car at the '95 Shootout ended up being the quickest and fastest DSM and unibody 4 cylinder in the world! The picture of Hallman's launch is THE classic launch shot in my opinion, the negative rear camber is crazy! I always liked Hallman's ride and those 17" AKT Logic wheels are awesome! I remember it being for sale at the 2004 Shootout and wishing I had the 15K he was asking. That car was clean, and with the SUPER dark tint he had on the windows, it was one if not the cleanest fade=free interiors I've seen. He was the guy that got me going with the stock turbo quest, after reading 12.57@109 in turbo mag, I started shooting for that number and to be the quickest stock turbo. Alot of guys went quicker than Hallman way before I did, but then after years of chasing multiple records, I finally met my goal. Marc Hallman gets credit for peaking interest in how quick my DSM would go without ever changing the turbo, and 13 years later the turbo has not left the car!

So, you got in really early in '92. That's awesome, I wish I did, but, I was gone in the military, over in Germany from March of '90 til April of '92, and then out at Fort Carson, in Colorado Springs until October of '92. I was a VW guy at the time, and paid no attention to the DSM cars. I left for the basic training in August of '89, right before the DSM's hit the showroom. So, I missed the World Challenge Series and the Archers'. I was still a VW guy when I got back so when I was at the races(road races at Lime Rock here in CT '93-'96) I never investigated the Talons.....wish I had. My buddy had an '82 Rabbit with a TO4B Callaway turbo and received a challenge from a guy in a '91 Black Cherry Talon TSi AWD. The race never happend. Too bad. I would have been talking alot of crap about DSM's as we would have torn him a new....well, you know. Little did I know, I was destined to own one and find out what they were all about. It was a bone stock TSI. The Rabbit weighed about 1860 lbs. and put down about 185 to the front wheels. We were killing Mustangs, Camaros, Trans-ams, Vettes, you name it. Then I got my Talon.......and we had a few play sessions when it was bone stock. I could not get him under 100 MPH, not even close, that car ripped to 125MPH and then ran out of gear. Above 100, I would reel him in and pass.....anyway, just some of my own DSM history there.


DSM's are awesome. And the history is awesome. Can't wait to see what else you've got to share. I hope I can find my stuff this winter. Well, talk to you soon and thanks for sharing, that's some killer stuff!

 

[dave99gst]

That post mentions Dean Bradley - I saw him last year @the track with a very nice Kigley built 1g

 

[Fathouse]

Some old school memorys in this thread.

Fathouse