need advice, slave cylinder related

[cardot33]

how does the slave cylinder operate when being bled? when the pedal is to the floor and the bleeder valve is opened should it retract back toward the cylinder (drivers/engine side) or should it just pour fluid out of the bleeder valve while the piston remains stationary? the reason being is because I'm having shift problems despite replacing MANY transmission related parts including the clutch and adjusting the clutch and shift cables. The car will start in gear and take off fine, but while running, this thing refuses to go in 1st and 2nd. The slave cylinder is one of the few parts I haven't replaced yet so I'm wondering if it's bad too.

 

[91talon27]

The piston moves out when you depress the clutch. Actually the shifter fork is kind of on a pivoting axis so to speak. The Slave cylinder moves the bottom of the fork when the clutch is depressed which in turn moves the top of the fork which engages the throwout bearing. When the clutch is released the opposite happens. If you depress the clutch and hold it when you crack the bleeder valve the piston will move very little if at all due to you are releasing the hydraulic pressure against it. As you depress the clutch fluid presses out on the piston. When you depress the clutch the fluid retracts back into the master cylinder. The piston will move very little if at all as there will be no fluid in it after you crack the valve. You are also not releasing the clutch pedal. If the slave cylinder is bad there will be a discoloration around the rubber boot which cover the rod and piston. Hope this helps.

 

[cardot33]

I've read that a little bit and I think that might be hinting me in the right direction. my slave cylinder is covered with fluid because of all the bleeding I've been doing on it so that's not really a good indication, but you say that as you relieve pressure (with the rod fully extended and clutch disengaged) that the piston shouldn't move very much, if at all. this is pretty much the opposite of what I have found. when I relieve pressure at this point, my slave cylinder piston will move back as far as possible. so either I've misinterpreted your information, or there's something wrong with my clutch hydraulic system, most likely the slave cylinder. the next question would be what's wrong then?

 

[SrKegler]

Your slave cylinder sounds ok. The rod should move back into the cylinder when you open the bleeder valve. Sometimes they can be a bear to bleed.

Have you adjusted the rod underneath the dash?

 

[cardot33]

yea, a couple times, and it always ends up to be in the right spot that it started in. I can't believe the amount of people that don't adjust the clutch and wonder what's wrong though. Amazing.
I found a bleeding instruction guide and I'm gonna try some of the stuff I haven't tried yet, so maybe it'll help. http://www.teamrip.com/how_to_properly_bleed_a_hydraulic_clutch_info.html I've never bled the clutch with the cap off or tried pushing the clutch fork in and having the pedal pressed down at the same time. I hope it's something really stupid and free, cause this has been a huge problem since I bought the car.

 

[SrKegler]

I just replaced my slave cylinder. Didn't have anyone handy to work the clutch so I just filled the resevoir, loosened the banjo bolt and let the fluid drain out until the bubbles stopped. Topped off the fluid again, opened the valve on the slave cylinder and let it run until I got all the bubbles out again. Before closing the bleeder, I pushed the rod all the way into the slave.

Be careful not to overfill the resevoir, just up the the line. Overfilling is supposed to creat problems.

 

[Morphius]

You'd bleed your slave like you do your brakes. Same method. When you pedal is not depressed, you should be able to push the slave cylinder rod into the body of the slave cylinder. If not, it's misadjusted.

 

[cardot33]

I just replaced my slave cylinder. Didn't have anyone handy to work the clutch so I just filled the resevoir, loosened the banjo bolt and let the fluid drain out until the bubbles stopped. Topped off the fluid again, opened the valve on the slave cylinder and let it run until I got all the bubbles out again. Before closing the bleeder, I pushed the rod all the way into the slave.

Be careful not to overfill the resevoir, just up the the line. Overfilling is supposed to creat problems.

that really works? might be worth a try. how loose did you take the banjo bolt? almost off, or just barely loose?

You'd bleed your slave like you do your brakes. Same method. When you pedal is not depressed, you should be able to push the slave cylinder rod into the body of the slave cylinder. If not, it's misadjusted.

yea, that's the kind of operation I'm getting. I can press it in when the pedal isn't depressed. with the help of a friend pressing on the slave cylinder, I have found there is very little free play before the reservoir is closed off and the system becomes closed.

 

[SrKegler]

Just barely loose. Also, don't let it run for an extremely long time. Maybe 15-20 seconds. I didn't want to take a chance on it running out of fluid.

Sounds like it's adjusted properly under the dash.

 

[cardot33]

Bought a new starter and drove the Talon today. I've bled it the way srkegler described and it's still the same thing, just as bad. I'm gonna try to bleed it with a partner like the link I posted describes, and if that doesn't work, maybe it is the tranny.

tried taking it for a test drive, so see if it would shift alright, it didn't, instead I have a new problem. I pushed in on the clutch and when I let out of the clutch the pedal was stuck on the floor. so I figure, alright, turn the car off, see what's going on. I pumped the pedal a couple times and now it's immovable. checked fluid, looks good. the slave cylinder isn't moving anymore, its stuck in its compressed form, away from the clutch fork. so what the hell just happened?! this is some CRAZY SHIT!

 

[talon913]

bro the way you bleed your slave cylinder is very simple i just did it yesterday for a friend that could not figure out how..this is with out pumping the pedal..what you do is you open the reservoir for the clutch slave cylinder..get under the car hold the rod all the way in with your finger keep holding it.now unloosin the bleeder valve with a 10mm wrench.a lil fluid should come out..dont let go of the the rod you have pushed in..now all you do is tighten the bleeder valve back up let go of the rod and it should push back into place hop in the car and the clutch should feel different already.if not thats when you adjust your rod under the dash.this is the proper way to bleed a slave cylinder..i hope this helps..people help me out if i missed some things

 

[cardot33]

talon913-yea, you've pretty much got half of what srkegler posted about.

tomorrow I'm going to tear the slave cylinder off and take it apart. rebuild kits are cheap if I need one. I'm also beginning to question the master cylinder (despite being new). this isn't just a bleeding problem anymore. there's something seriously wrong with the hydraulic system.

so yea, I've got a couple things I need advice on. I took out the slave cylinder and the boot was full of fluid, so it seems like that's not good, also it would keep jamming up when I tried to compress it. the other thing is that I noticed the clutch fork was pushed as far toward the passenger side as possible. I pushed it back, but it would make a clicking noise when I pushed it at one point of travel. then it just stopped extending that far. sounds like I might be looking for a 2nd new clutch. awesome, that one lasted maybe 3 miles.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

So is the clutch still stuck to the floor? Have you replaced the slave cylinder yet? What kind of clutch do ya have? Have you checked the pedal assembly? Push down, let go, then once the pedal comes all the way up, pull up to see if it'll come up anymore. If so, you probably have a bad assembly.

You could have a broken metal clip that holds the tob. Bent or Broken shift fork. Or the pressure plate could be broken. The fingers could be bent or broken, or any of the 3 straps around the edge of the pressure plate and if those break, you won't be able to disengage your clutch.

Good straps...

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Bad straps...

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Have you checked your shifter cable adjustments? Checked all your bell housing bolts to make sure they're tight? And of course you could POSSIBLY have a problem with the clutch disc itself.

 

[cardot33]

the pedal was stuck in the up position, but the slave cylinder was just sitting limp, maybe an inch away from the clutch fork. I've taken the slave cylinder off and disassembled it since then though.

I have a RAM stock replacement clutch. RAM Automotive 88597 - RAM Premium Replacement Clutch Sets - Overview - SummitRacing.com

I've checked the pedal assembly a couple times before this happened.

shift fork and pivot ball is as new as the clutch (3 miles)

shift cables are new and properly adjusted. bellhousing bolts have been checked and double checked several times.

 

[mach4g63t]

Try adjusting the the clutch pedal below the dash. If you look up under your dash and track the moving parts, you will see the adjustment rod. Loosen the nut and twist the rod towards the firewall (out of the assembly) a few threads at a time. 1 or 2 threads makes a significant adjustment. Good luck.

 

[cardot33]

yea, a couple times, and it always ends up to be in the right spot that it started in.

Sounds like it's adjusted properly under the dash.

Try adjusting the the clutch pedal below the dash. If you look up under your dash and track the moving parts, you will see the adjustment rod. Loosen the nut and twist the rod towards the firewall (out of the assembly) a few threads at a time. 1 or 2 threads makes a significant adjustment. Good luck.

seriously, it's been said a couple times in this thread. please read through the thread before posting. I bet you'll give better advice when you know what the problem is

 

[v8s_are_slow]

I just reread one thing you wrote...

took out the slave cylinder and the boot was full of fluid, so it seems like that's not good, also it would keep jamming up when I tried to compress it. the other thing is that I noticed the clutch fork was pushed as far toward the passenger side as possible. I pushed it back, but it would make a clicking noise when I pushed it at one point of travel. then it just stopped extending that far. sounds like I might be looking for a 2nd new clutch. awesome, that one lasted maybe 3 miles.

Okay, the boot shouldn't be full of fluid. Ya need a slave cylinder if fluid is getting to the boot. The other thing is that you shouldn't have the fork all the way to the passenger side. I know it sucks but ya might need to be pulling the tranny to inspect. But 1st, take off the boot around the clutch fork and look up in there with a flashlight to see if you can see anything that doesn't look right. You did push the fork all the way onto the pivot ball correct???

 

[cardot33]

way ahead of you there v8sareslow. I was pretty sure that the shift fork shouldn't be extended that far toward the passenger side. I took the boot off and looked up into the bellhousing and couldn't really see much of anything out of place. the fork is still on the pivot ball for as much as I can tell. I'll try to get the talon inside where I can start pulling it apart again. this sucks. should go a lot faster this time at least.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Can you tell if the tob moves back and forth if you move the fork? Makes me wonder if the clip that holds the tob to the fork may have broken or came out. If that's the case, the fork can move all the way to the passenger side and the tob will just sit there.

And hope you read this part on Summit's page...

These clutch sets are great for street-stock vehicles with no modifications--no taller gears, specialized tires, nitrous oxide, or blowers--that will not see track action. The flywheel must be resurfaced to validate the warranty.

 

[cardot33]

I just said the hell with it and started pulling the transmission. is there an easy way to remove the passenger side axle? it's been a pain both times I've pulled the trans. any specific tools or methods? that's one of the last things I've got to take off before I drop the trans out.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Just a pry bar and a hammer to pop in between the tranny and axle or big flat tip screw driver. Personally, I've left both axles in and just pulled the tranny with them still attached to keep from having to drain the fluid. Pain in the ass to install back in the car that way (especially when doing it by yourself) but it can be done. Just drop the ball joints so the hub can swing out and you should be good.

You're pulling one, and I'm about to put mine back in. Yay!!!

 

[cardot33]

I got it all out. the passenger side axle was pure luck, again. I found a perfectly sized chizel and gave it a few smacks with a hammer. the total time I put into pulling this out was about 2 hours so I'm really proud of myself. It's an improvement from the 10 hours it took me the first time.
I did find a definite problem. The release bearing is toasted. I didn't take the clutch apart yet because I want to take a picture of it as is. so I don't know how that's doing really. It seems misaligned and I'll try to post a picture of the release bearing tonight. It's hard to describe, but it was scraping on the clutch and it eventually stopped moving because of all the metal from the inside ring building up.
v8sareslow-by the way, if I end up needing a clutch I'll be getting the unsprung clutch you linked me to.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Did you have an extended slave cylinder rod in it? Makes me wonder if the fork was getting over extended and the tob may have come off the shaft just a bit too much. Just a thought. Either way, dunno which tob you used but stick with an oem when ya put it all back together.

As for going with the same clutch as me, well, I can't really give ya any feedback on it cause I don't really have any yet. I will soon though.

 

[cardot33]

nope, I didn't have an extended slave cylinder rod, which is what's really puzzling. the throw out bearing I put in came with the clutch.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Kinda hard to see cause it's a lil blurry. But it could've just been a crappy tob. I mean hell, the whole kit is pretty cheap really. Go oem and don't look back on tob's. What does the pp look like where the pp was touching it?