Biggest turbo for evo injectors

[2GturboTALON]

Im currently running a FP Big T28, but its on its way out and im loking into new turbos currently. I would like some suggestions on what would be the best turbo for keeping my current setup and still having the drivability i currently have. I was told when i bought this car it had a built engine, I think i may just play it safe and just pretend its on stock internals. Im looking at the Evo III , since it seems that is the goto turbo for everyone but id like feedback from anyone running something bigger with a similar setup

My mods:
7 Bolt
FP Big T28
full dejon tool IC piping
cone filter
Safc II
Ported o2 housing
Full apexi N1 exhaust
Forge BOv (recirc)
Evo injectors
Evo fuel pump

 

[BeatupVR4]

You can max those injectors out with an EVO III so if you go any bigger you'll just be getting a higher boost threshold and only be able to make the same amount of power.

Actually use all the airflow an EVO III can provide and I'm sure it will be plenty fast enough for you.

 

[1992awdlaser]

You can max out evo injectors with a 14b. They are only 560's. I would check to see if you have an e-prom. If you do then get a chip made for bigger injectors like 850's or so and buy some. Then you can keep the safc for fine adjustments and you will not run out of injector.

 

[2GturboTALON]

Yeah , i have an eprom and i was looking at maybe getting a dsmchip

 

[1992awdlaser]

Yeah , i have an eprom and i was looking at maybe getting a dsmchip

Then I would get a chip for bigger injectors. Get one for injectors bigger than what you think you will ever need. Then buy injectors that size also.

 

[hypnoticpimp]

I dont think it will be worth it upgrading from an fp big t28 to an evo 3 16g... The e3 16g only flows aroung 50 cfm more than your t28 and your gonna pay $800 for 50 more cfm?.... When i upgrade from my t28 i will go with at least a 20g or something along those lines...

 

[kahl23]

Are you still on the stock sidemount? You might want to consider running either an upgraded SMIC or going with a full FMIC, as the stocker will become a restriction with any larger turbo. In fact, it's probably already a restriction with the T-28. Also, with an EPROM you can run DSMLink, though if you want something that is plug and play and you never run race gas (which I assume from the stock SMIC, if you have a stock SMIC), DSMChip would probably be better for you,

 

[2gGSX]

The T28 is actually a pretty safe match for your fuel system. If you go larger it will really start to push your IDCs higher or force you to tune leaner.

 

[2GturboTALON]

Im currently running a FP Big T28, but its on its way out and im loking into new turbos currently

I loved my T28 but im goin to have to get it rebuilt,since its dying im buying a new turbo. I will be getting a fmic somewhat soon also

 

[bacalhau16]

Rebuild kits for turbos are rather inexpensive and not all that difficult to do. You should read into it. If your happy with your current setup, stick with it.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

For the archives again, the EVO 560s flow more like 580s, and are enough to support exactly 42 lbs/min with a 42-43 psi base pressure, 13.5 volts (rewired), target AFR of 11:1, and fuel with a SG of around .75.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

get yourself some dsmlinkage and just throw some 1000's on the beast and call it a day till you're bigger than a 35R

 

[DSMunknown]

Kev, you may want to ask Splitpi about Evo injectors. I think he actually had his Evos tested and they measured at 590cc. I'll ask him to come join in the conversation.

 

[Splitpi]

I bought used ones and being the anal retentive prick that I am... had them cleaned and benched before putting them in my car..

So I sent them to Jens @ FIC. They also needed new pintle caps and seals and catch baskets... so it was part of the deal.

Anyways... here the pre numbers prior to cleaning:
148, 142, 134, 138 ml. After cleaning 152, 151, 150, 149 ml. <-- all measured over 15 seconds, 1/4 min

Doing the math on them to get cc/min yields
608, 604, 600, 596 cc/min respectively....

i.e. 1 ml = 1 cc
Flow / 15 secs = 1cc / .25 min

So the evo 560's flow around 580-600 cc/min. Attached is my spec sheet from Jens.

By the way... my injectors are for sale. New seals, pintle cap, seals and catch baskets aswell as documented flow numbers ... PM for price if interested. Only ran them for about 40 miles or so and have sat in their storage container since.

 

[DSMunknown]

^ Thanks a shitload for the info.

 

[2gGSX]

It was a good thing you got them cleaned then, because you had a maximum of a 10% differential between the lowest and highest flowing injector.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Nice! It's good to get some confirmation on what we've suspected for years now.

 

[Splitpi]

Nice! It's good to get some confirmation on what we've suspected for years now.

One other thing, I spoke with some engineers for the manufacturer of the injectors and they reiterate our suspicions and findings that the Evo 560's flowed between 580-600 in reality.

In addition they have a lower dead time than the 2G stock 450's. Which may cause problems for some tuners.... but it can be accounted for.

 

[haioku-rocket]

evo 1-4 injectors =510s

evo 5-9 injectors are 560s.

560s are still too small for a 16g, the FPt28 would be as well. I have a friend(soldave on the forum) that has a small 16g, FP1X cams, evo 5 560 injectors, evo 3 o2 housing, 3" downpipe exhaust. Already at 16psi on the small 16g the car is 85% DC @ 45 psi static fuel pressure.

 

[haioku-rocket]

For the archives again, the EVO 560s flow more like 580s, and are enough to support exactly 42 lbs/min with a 42-43 psi base pressure, 13.5 volts (rewired), target AFR of 11:1, and fuel with a SG of around .75.

Where are you getting your info? Because 560 (580ish CC) wont support anywhere near 42 lb-min...Atleast not according to my calculations and the logs on my friends small 16g.

560s from what I figure only will support about 370-380 HP at the flywheel @ 90% DC at 11.0 AFR...thats really only about 320ish WHP or so.

 

[bacalhau16]

Splitpi just showed how well the later EVO injectors really did flow. Even if you looked at EVO's and how well they perform on stock injectors, you would see that you are a little low on your numbers. I have an EVO VIII, and I was not anywhere near that Injector duty cycle and I put down about 300whp.

Did your friend have his injectors cleaned before he installed them?

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Where are you getting your info?

Same place I get all my info. Years of testing and personal experience.

Because 560 (580ish CC) wont support anywhere near 42 lb-min...

False. And they're not 560s, we've already covered that adequately.

Atleast not according to my calculations and the logs on my friends small 16g.

560s from what I figure only will support about 370-380 HP at the flywheel @ 90% DC at 11.0 AFR...thats really only about 320ish WHP or so.

Quoting HP capacity for a given injector size (or ET/mph) is cool for internet calcs that never work out right, but if you really want to do the math, look at it in terms of airflow only. What a person is able to make for power/times with that airflow is a huge variable that math can't account for. Throwing drivetrain losses into your calculations is a complete train wreck. Doing the math for airflow is extremely acurate math, and in my experience is good to within less than 1 lb/min and 1% IDC. You need accurate values though, for airflow, injector static flow, target AFR, fuel pressure vs rated pressure, and fuel specific gravity. I've also run injectors at 100% (more than 10 sets) for up to years at a time with no issues with [insert interwebz myth here]. Mathematically at some IDC close to 100% the injector is basically static due to the dead time that needs to be accounted for, but at that point you're WOT or you're not. It works.

All that being said, 580s will cover 42 lbs/min at 100% IDC. I have 3 years worth of logs from my 05 RS showing IDCs in the 99-101% range at 42-43 lbs/min on the stock turbo at 11:1 usng fuel with an SG of .75-.76 at 43 psi. I've seen dozens of vehicles from other forums reporting the exact same values, including DSMs running EVO turbos and EVO injectors. Don't look just at your buddy's case only, look at as many cases as possible to rule out bunk numbers. Garbage in, garbage out.

Didn't mean to ramble on so long, hopefully this is still helpful.

 

[haioku-rocket]

Did your friend have his injectors cleaned before he installed them?

yes he did.

 

[haioku-rocket]

Same place I get all my info. Years of testing and personal experience.



False. And they're not 560s, we've already covered that adequately.



Quoting HP capacity for a given injector size (or ET/mph) is cool for internet calcs that never work out right, but if you really want to do the math, look at it in terms of airflow only. What a person is able to make for power/times with that airflow is a huge variable that math can't account for. Throwing drivetrain losses into your calculations is a complete train wreck. Doing the math for airflow is extremely acurate math, and in my experience is good to within less than 1 lb/min and 1% IDC. You need accurate values though, for airflow, injector static flow, target AFR, fuel pressure vs rated pressure, and fuel specific gravity. I've also run injectors at 100% (more than 10 sets) for up to years at a time with no issues with [insert interwebz myth here]. Mathematically at some IDC close to 100% the injector is basically static due to the dead time that needs to be accounted for, but at that point you're WOT or you're not. It works.

All that being said, 580s will cover 42 lbs/min at 100% IDC. I have 3 years worth of logs from my 05 RS showing IDCs in the 99-101% range at 42-43 lbs/min on the stock turbo at 11:1 usng fuel with an SG of .75-.76 at 43 psi. I've seen dozens of vehicles from other forums reporting the exact same values, including DSMs running EVO turbos and EVO injectors. Don't look just at your buddy's case only, look at as many cases as possible to rule out bunk numbers. Garbage in, garbage out.

Didn't mean to ramble on so long, hopefully this is still helpful.

thanks for the reply. As far as running injectors at 100%DC. Not sure if thats what I call safe. I wasn't calculating it up to 100% either. Its potentially dangerous, atleast IMO especially on pintle style injectors, but if your doing it and things are good then hats off. I just personally wouldn't reccomend it.

I also have done quite a few logs between the evo 510s and 560s (My wife and I own evo's as well). I do not like to go over 90% DC on the stock pintle type injectors...however not discrediting you or anyone else that has pushed them harder, but IMO I do not think its safe to or wise to reccomend 560 evo injectors for an evo 3 16g/FPt28 (turbo capable of flowing approximately 40 lb-min+). Personally I think a much safer option and what I would reccomend would be 650s.


If you want to call them evo 580CC injectors then whatever is your pleasure we are talking about the same thing.

As far as online calculators goes...Well they can be fairly accurate if you use the correct flow rates (what they actually flow and not are advertised at) and use the correct brake specific fuel consumption. most people use those stupid numbers off of RC's site which are incorrect for our engines.


But hey what do I know.

 

[haioku-rocket]

Btw just talked to my friend that had his injectors cleaned.. They only flowed 558CC's not 580s. It appears all this talk is all relative because not all the evo injectors are created equal.

Will try to get the flow sheet to post.