Good or Bad Idea? IAT modification... Ways to get cooler IAT's.

[MarkAngelo05]

Hi!

Okay, the 2nd Gen ECU is known to pull timing when IAT's are above 84 degrees. I know for sure that when you install a MAFT, it actually "SIMULATES" a CONSTANT 80 Degrees IAT, since the IAT sensor in not built in to the MAF unlike the stock MAS.

Here in Hawaii, it is almost impossible for me to have IAT's lower than 84 degrees, specially before the turbo and intercooler. I've made several mods by fabricating a partition to help prevent intake of hot Engine bay air. This pretty much directs airflow through the HOLE where the stock Upper Intercooler Piping used to go through. This dramatically decreased IAT's from 110+ during the day to about 90 degrees during the day. Yet this is still causing me a 1 degree loss in timing because it's above 84 degrees.

Has anybody ever measured approximately how much hotter the turbo heats the Air before it goes through the intercooler? Would it have made more sense if the IAT sensor was located in the intake manifold? Since the intercooler (depending on efficiency) would cool the air and ofcourse be different from the IAT reading from the MAS..??

Maybe I am getting too into this. Bottom line is, should I also simulate IAT's from the MAS to 80 degrees like how the MAFT does. Most of us that have Upgraded Front Mount intercoolers would throw off the factory "calculations" anyway, which would prove the factory IAT readings would cause the ECU to inaccurately calculate due to our Large front mounts cooling the intake charge to near ambient temperatures.

Any inputs?

Here is the partition mod that effectively dropped my IAT's atleast 20 degrees!

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Thanks!

Mark

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

run piping up to the filter, itll lower it some more.

 

[romeen]

Mark, have you ever considered meth injection?

I would also recommend heat wrapping your exhaust manifold. Not only will it lower underhood temps but it will also retain more of the exhaust gas energy within the manifold. Less energy lost to heat=more energy available to spin the turbine. While your at it consider wrapping the turbine housing as well. Doing both can significantly lower intake temps.

 

[RedTurboEclipse]

Man my dsmlink shows the temp sometimes 120-130, on normal spring cali days. I cant wait until summer. The car feels like a pig.

I'm most likely going with meth injection, and I want to run the filter to the stock SMIC location. People who have done that, or run tubing from the front bumper opening to the filter have noticed significantly lower temps.

I'm satisfied when Its only at 90-100. Meth injection and "cold air" intake, should work nicely.

 

[MarkAngelo05]

Mark, have you ever considered meth injection?

I would also recommend heat wrapping your exhaust manifold. Not only will it lower underhood temps but it will also retain more of the exhaust gas energy within the manifold. Less energy lost to heat=more energy available to spin the turbine. While your at it consider wrapping the turbine housing as well. Doing both can significantly lower intake temps.

Hey.. I've considered water/alcohol/metch injection, but I don't want to keep having to fill it up. I know a guy here in Hawaii that drives a 1G, he bought it with custom maps programmed for his ecu, and he cannot drive it unless he's injecting.... once he runs out of fluid, he can barely drive the car in boost because of his timing, etc. and KNOCK GOES UP! .. I don't wanna mess with the extra stuff. It's a darn good idea though.. but still won't change the ECU seeing high Intake temps and pulling 1 degree timing regardless. I'm going to develop something that I will pass around... It's gonna be either a remote temp sensor that goes on the intake manifold, or an something...so it's more accurate.

run piping up to the filter, it'll lower it some more.

I already did that.. and it actually helped, specially during the day.. I really used to get close to 120 intake temps, then dropped to about 100 w/ just the partition, then to 90 with the flex pipe routed to the front.

Mark

Hey RedTurboECLIPSE, how do you pass emissions, etc in Cali.. I may move back to Cali (am from there) and I want to bring my eclipse with me. But I'm afraid of Cali emissions.

 

[DSMunknown]

It sounds like you can get some of the readings you seek by using an intercooler temperature meter, which can be seen here by SP Engineering. You can purchase one for yourself here. Seems like a great piece of equipment to me. This would also give you some numbers so you could figure out the thermal efficiency of your intercooler.







Here is a photo for a quick reference:

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[VanIsleDSM]

since you have a front mount, have you considered relocating the filter to where your smic used to be? seems to me that's the best route for lower IAT.

 

[Calan]

It sounds like you can get some of the readings you seek by using an intercooler temperature meter, which can be seen here by SP Engineering. You can purchase one for yourself here.

That is a pretty nice rig ... but holy crap... $325? Think I'll be passing on that for a while

 

[IslandTSI]

Do ypu have all the hot side parts of the turbo wrapped? Any decrease in heat in the engine bay would be helpful and its proven to work.

 

[RedTurboEclipse]

since you have a front mount, have you considered relocating the filter to where your smic used to be? seems to me that's the best route for lower IAT.

Yea that does seem to be the best way to lower the temps, but I have not seen anyone do it if their fmic kit routes the piping BACK to the smic location. It's a great choice for those with short route piping.

MarkAngelo, how do I pass? Easy, just bring it into the smog station, and have them do it, and I pass.

I have been trying to tell Bay Area people not to be so paranoid if their mods aren't as extensive as mine, or about the same:
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251947

Just make sure your fuel trims are in check. If you get sent to the state ref though, your screwed.

 

[MarkAngelo05]

Hey DSMUnknown, thanks for showing me that.. looks pretty cool, but not worth the price. I can just buy a digital thermometer and fit it where that would go.. ...

Yea that does seem to be the best way to lower the temps, but I have not seen anyone do it if their fmic kit routes the piping BACK to the smic location. It's a great choice for those with short route piping.

MarkAngelo, how do I pass? Easy, just bring it into the smog station, and have them do it, and I pass.

I have been trying to tell Bay Area people not to be so paranoid if their mods aren't as extensive as mine, or about the same:
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251947

Just make sure your fuel trims are in check. If you get sent to the state ref though, your screwed.

Hmm.. so do you have all your emissions equipment like canister, EGR, etc all installed and in working order?? Also, you must have a high flow catalytic converter, right?.... thanks for the awesome info... get back to me though, I just wanna know what to expect when I get to Cali...

Thanks!

Mark

AND ISLANDTSI, Well, I have ALL of my stock Heatshields installed.. I lucked out on the 02 sensor housing fitting over my tubular o2, and it mounted great, it's on with 1 bolt, buts it's doing well.. I also have the stock heatshield painted with ceramic black paint... should I wrap instead of using those heat shields??

 

[IslandTSI]

I would wrap the downpipe and the o2 housing but leave the stock manifold heat shield on. Or even just wrap the downpipe to the flex section.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Can you show a picture how you wrapped everything?

 

[MarkAngelo05]

Ya, can you show us a pic of how you did yours.. also, what heat wrap did you use? I know some of them are duds. specially ebay ones.. they burn off!

mark

 

[VanIsleDSM]

RedTurboEclipse: looks to me like he does have short route, the flex pipe he installed to direct more cold air to the filter appears to go through the stock hole for the original smic pipe.. can you confirm either way for Mark?

 

[romeen]

I would wrap the downpipe and the o2 housing but leave the stock manifold heat shield on. Or even just wrap the downpipe to the flex section.

My exhaust manifold is wrapped AND I'm still using the stock heat shield. I just had to poke holes through the wrap where the heat shield bolts go. Although I don't have before and after temp measurements my underhood temps are undoubtedly lower. I highly recommend it to anyone. Turbo seems to spool a little faster too due to the reasons I stated in post #3.

To wrap the O2 housing you pretty much need to take it off the car. Because of it's location and shape it is rather akward to wrap.

Mark, if I remember correctly I used the DEI brand (from Summit). I am visiting family out of town right now and don't have access to my car otherwise I would take some pictures for you. I think I used the 1" wide wrap. It was already impregnated with graphite so that you don't need to use the high temp protective spray on it. It's a little messy to work with (drips black water when you wet it for the install) but does make things a little easier.

 

[RedTurboEclipse]

RedTurboEclipse: looks to me like he does have short route, the flex pipe he installed to direct more cold air to the filter appears to go through the stock hole for the original smic pipe.. can you confirm either way for Mark?

Oh duh! the pic is obvious. Yea I would just route the filter down there. I'm planning to do it myself. All the parts are available at HDR: http://www.homedepot.com (home depot racing). Some guy on dsmlink on his 2g had some nice pics and all the parts he used.

 

[MarkAngelo05]

Hey Redturboeclipse (wish people left their names.. ) Ya, I saw a couple how to's on routing the intake filter down there, but I think I'd need that EBAY Hard Intake piping that comes with the ROUND FILTER ADAPTER, so I can actually buy the round flexible pipes and PVC or ABS couplers from home depot racing and route it down there! I have K&N's Oval shaped enhancement kit, so I need to get that ebay one first... thanks for bringing this idea back though! I may just do it! It'll be much more effective than the partition that I have done along with the flex piping directing air staight from where the old SMIC duct used to be.. "ram air" ..

take care! and thanks for the replies!


Mark

 

[RedTurboEclipse]

Mark, ebay sells just the round filter adapter and filter for very cheap on ebay. You do not need the hard intake pipe if you already have your own setup.

This is from JessGSX on dsmlink

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Yea, I used a 4" PVC 90* M->F elbow. with a 5"->4" rubber PVC pipe coupler. The 5" end of the rubber coupler goes over the Female end of the elbow, the male end of the coupler goes onto the MAF adaptor. The Filter just connects right onto the Male end of the elbow, since it's the same size as the filter adaptor. The assembly's weight essentially rests on the coupler, which is sitting on the framrail. I had to enlarge the hole in the fenderwell to fit the elbow.

The parts (minus the filter/adapter) cost less than $20 he says from HDR.

And the guys are seeing temps drop 40degrees and more!

I'm definitely doing this soon enough.

 

[spyderturbo007]

Just remember that although Meth injection will cool the actual intake charge, the ECU will never see a drop in IAT. The ECU reads the IAT pre-turbo, intercooler, etc.

EDIT-> Ah, crap, I'm an idiot. I was doing some searching and forgot that I wasn't looking at recent threads and decided to add my 2 cents. Sorry for bringing back a 3 month old thread.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Since you brought it back I'll add my .02 cents

Mark your K&N looks basically dry and needs to be oiled in order to filter properly.

 

[kenamond]

The intercooler is not going to cool the hot compressor output below outside temperatures; that violates laws of thermodynamics.

Water/meth injection can decrease temperatures below ambient due to evaporative cooling. This lets you advance timing more which gives you more torque (and therefore power). Yes, you have to keep your fluid reservoir filled, but you can skip meth altogether and use distilled water or use windshield washer fluid. Add $1 each time you fill up. When the idiot light goes on, fill the tank back up. I have a very short commute and rarely take the car on a long road trip, so this would work well for me. May be inconvenient for those of you who have to drive your cars long distances frequently.

Also, has anyone thought about wrapping their IC pipes? Feel the UICP sometime after you've been driving. It's hot. That heat conducts into the intake air, too. Insulating it slows down the heat transfer into the intake air. That's one thing about the stock UICP; it's rubber which is a much better insulator than steel or aluminum.

 

[Calan]

Also, has anyone thought about wrapping their IC pipes? Feel the UICP sometime after you've been driving. It's hot. That heat conducts into the intake air, too. Insulating it slows down the heat transfer into the intake air. That's one thing about the stock UICP; it's rubber which is a much better insulator than steel or aluminum.

I'm really wondering about this also. I have never pulled my car in and felt the IC pipes without them being almost too hot to touch.

I have both heat shields on my exhaust manny and O2. But with the turbo output running right in front of the downpipe, a radiator overflow bottle setting on top of the FMIC output pipe, and the generally hot underhood temps... I'm thinking all that shiny aluminum IC piping is absorbing a HUGE amount of heat and transfering it straight into my intake.

It seems that wrapping them to keep out the heat would have an even better effect than wrapping the exhaust to keep heat in.

Anybody have before/after numbers on this?

BTW - I have another thread, but what is a good inexpensive IAT sensor that I can hook up? (I have a MAF-T and the ECU IAT/Baro inputs are currently unused...but I could still hook up a sensor for logging)

 

[Calan]

So I'm about to start wrapping my IC pipes and started thinking, which usually causes problems; but anyway...

I think the IC output/upper pipe should definitely be wrapped... but the lower IC pipe coming off the J-Pipe runs directly in front of the ac fan, which is running any time the ac is on or the main fan runs. Regardless of that, it has hot air blowing over it all the time from the radiator. And it is also very close to the DP and O2 housing.

Now what I'm wondering is... is the compressed air flowing through this pipe hotter than the air blowing over it from the radiator (which means the external airflow could potentially help remove heat from the pipe), or is the external air hotter and possibly increasing the temperature of the pipe and the air inside it?

In other words, would wrapping the lower IC pipe (and maybe the J-Pipe) help or hurt intake temps?