Tuning results from the weekend

soldave · 08-25-2008, 08:54 PM

Wish I had better news to report following the tuning session last Saturday, but it wasn't the greatest of weekends on the whole, for a number of reasons. A bit of background first. My old power figures as recorded on the Apexi Rev/Speed meter were 351ps at 1.35bar and with a small 16G turbo and on meth. Mods I have just had installed were a Bullseye Power T04B 50-trim turbo, Treadstone intercooler, intercooler piping (60mm in, 70mm ex), and a full belt change (timing, a/c, alternator etc. Also, to cope with the increased air flow and power expected from the turbo I changed from an M7 nozzle to an M10 nozzle in my meth kit.

So, onto tuning. Starting off at 1 bar was difficult as that is just where the meth starts to be staged in and so the pump was trying to come on and messing up the maps a little. Running 1.2 bar I was making decent but not great power (similar to the small 16G at this stage which wasn't really encouraging) although this could have been because I was strangely running into a couple of knock issues. We managed to tune the knock out a little and the tuning session had to end prematurely at 1.3 bar or boost and about 360ps power.

Was a little discouraged to say the least considering how much I have spent on parts and upgrades for it, but there are a couple of factors I need to take into account:

1. The fuelling is still very rich (running high 10s at WOT when in boost) and so that can be leaned out to probably give me another 10-15ps of power.
2. I still had a small bit of knock which, if I can get rid of, will get me some power gains.
3. The base timing could be off a little (tuning shop made a mistake when they fitted cams last time and set the base timing off, so it needs to be checked again this weekend)
4. Providing I can accomplish number 2, the boost will be going up to 1.4-1.5 bar to up my power too.

I also need to note that 1.3 bar of boost was the peak recorded, but that may have been the result of a boost spike. I did a couple of launches on Sunday night and managed to get a 1/4 mile time of 12.12s which is beating my previous best by 0.1s. But the boost was spiking in lower gears to 1.5 bar. So those power figures of 360ps might actually be at a lower constant boost level after the spike has been recorded. Am going to accept a 0.2bar boost spike seeing as I hane an internal wastegate on the turbo.

So plenty to work on next weekend and will hopefully have better news to report then.

pneumo · 08-26-2008, 08:30 PM

Keep at it. I remember the first time I went to the track with my new 50 trim setup. It felt great on the road, but at the track the best I could do was a low 14! That was an eye opener. Tuning makes all the difference.

soldave · 08-26-2008, 08:54 PM

Thanks for the encouragement, man. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't discouraged after the first round of tuning. Am really hoping that the base timing is off as that would explain a few things, but the knock at relatively low boost is worrying me a bit. We'll just have to see what this weekend brings.

soldave · 09-02-2008, 07:42 PM

Right - another update from last weekend where more tuning took place. And I am happy to report that it was more successful than the previous week's disappointing session. Although there was one small silver lining to that first bad weekend of tuning. I did a launch or 2 a night later and got a 12.12s 1/4 mile time. That was 0.1s quicker than I had hit before and the car still wasn't performing well.

First things first, we decided to check the timing, just in case it was off. Turns out, when the garage changed the timing belt/turbo, they took off the cam angle sensor. When they replaced it, they didn't test for timing while grounding out that brown plug that's near the firewall. Consequently I was running with 10 degrees of base timing instead of 5. That would explain why I wasn't making much power and was encountering knock on my runs. So we changed the timing and then took the car out.

Tuning went pretty well, although we were finding that the engine would only boost to 1.28bar. It was spiking above that, but regardless of what the boost controller was set to, we were still only hitting 1.28 bar. But at this level we were getting virtually no knock and we were hitting about 365ps on my rev/speed meter. So a little better but annoyed that we couldn't make any more boost. When I got home though I found out the problem; the wastegate actuator had absolutely no preload on it. I had to tighten the adjstment rod by 2 full turns before there was any preload at all on the actuator.

Since then I haven't really done much tuning, but have more scheduled this weekend. I have done a couple of 4th gear pulls though up to redline and I have hit power figures of 383ps (about 378hp), which is a good increase in power over the small 16G. Boost is now holding at 1.43 bar and my air fuel ratios are still a little out due to the increase in boost I've found. Am expecting the car also to be knocking because of it at that boost level. So with some air/fuel tuning and if I can decrease the knock and maybe push the boost to 1.5 bar, I might be touching 400hp which is a nice figure for me. And I've also got to look at my boost spike as I'm hitting around 1.75 in the lower gears while on WOT. While that is just about within my own limits, I would ideally like it spiking quite a bit less. Have a ported O2 housing and bigger downpipe so not sure what I'm going to do about it.

That will probably be the end of speed performance upgrades for me for a while as the next step would probably be forged internals, and I can't afford the car being off the road for that long. Clutch is definitely on the shopping list though for the near future. Have a Centerforce clutch in there which is a super single but with a 2300lb pressure plate (so not so bad for crankwalk). It's only rated to 300whp and so I can see myself tearing that thing up before long. Am gonna have a little contest to see who's clutch lasts the longest. We've got me in the red corner with the Evo I, a Centerforce super single clutch and running about 400hp. And then in the blue corner we've got my buddy with an Evo III who's gonna be running about 650hp and with an OS Giken twin plate that's only rated to 600hp. The contest is on!

soldave · 09-03-2008, 06:03 AM

Well I went out tonight for about 30 minutes with a little mission. I was trying to see if I could map my car so that I could have the BOV venting to atmosphere without trying to cut out when I go into neutral or let off. With a little advice I might have managed it. What I've basically done is richen up the lower load and lower rpm levels just slightly so that it doesn't drop off and stall. Needs a little perfecting but I might have managed it.

My Greddy Type S BOV does sound a little F&F now but a little less piping is probably good for me. Plus it means I might be able to route my intake a little differently to get some cooler air in there.

Oh, and I did one small launch up to midway through 3rd gear (when a bend placed in the road forced me to brake). I got slight wheelspin but not all the way through 1st as I was getting with the small 16G. I'd like to think it is because of my superior launch technique now and also because the 50-trim doesn't spool at about 1500rpm like the S16G does! That thing pulls damn hard now though.

pneumo · 09-03-2008, 09:19 AM

Nice tuning! You're making some good power now.

Coincidentally, the slow times on my pte50 trim were from a loose wastegate arm. With my turbo, the arm was so loose it didn't spool up until 5k rpm. It felt fast because the power was constantly building up, but I was missing half a powerband. I would only see full boost for 1500 rpm before shifting gears and dropping out of boost again.

Good luck with your vented bov. What type of engine management and airflow sensor are you using?

soldave · 09-03-2008, 09:39 AM

Thanks. The BOV was really just me being bored and playing around with things tonight. Have connected it back up and am recirculating it again. I am using the Ostrich realtime chip emulator with Tunerpro RT software as my engine management.

The power is decent, although is being overstated as far as whp is concerned I think. It's partially because the meter is configured to a car weight of 3000lbs. Now the stock kerb weight of my car is 2700lbs. I am not sure what the current weight is. It might not be too far off though with a full tank of gas and 2 guys in the car doing tuning.

soldave · 09-05-2008, 11:36 AM

Did a run on the expressway this evening in 4th gear. Think the cool evening air and my new intake helped a little, as well as changing to BR8ES spark plugs yesterday. Hit 396ps which is just over 390hp I think, and that's with 9 counts of knock. Richen the fuelling a little to get rid of that this weekend and I should be at 400hp; a nice little milestone for me and a damn quick car!

bastarddsm · 09-05-2008, 11:54 AM

I see you using the ostrich? How do you like it? What did you have to do to make it work with the evoI ecu, or did you swap ecu's around? Ive heard that the evos had a differen't code on the eprom so the standard dsm dissasembly wouldn't work.

soldave · 09-05-2008, 12:02 PM

I think the Ostrich is great, but only as good as the definition file you can find for it. I have found one for the Evo I from 4g63.co.uk which has all the basic features. Doesn't have things like the knock sensor triggering a check engine light at a certain knock count or stuff like that, but it covers most things.

You're right though thinking that the standard DSM chip disassembly won't work with it.

bastarddsm · 09-05-2008, 01:14 PM

cool! You have full acces to the fuel and timing maps? Are you editing in realtime? How does that work?

Have you considered swaping to a 1g dsm ecu, that way you could take advantage of things that we are able to do with them? I would expect it to be a fairly simple swap, just change some pins around.

soldave · 09-05-2008, 04:24 PM

I've thought about it, and I know I can send my ECU to dsmchips and get it all changed so I can use DSM chips. Can't really afford the downtime on my car though as it's a daily driver and I'm pretty isolated where I live.

But I do have full access to fuelling and timing maps and I edit with Tunerpro RT. Editing is in realtime but unfortunately I don't have a definition file to datalog in Tunerpro and have to datalog in Pocketlogger. Makes mapping a little more difficult as we don7t know exactly which load points we are hitting at what time, but we can work with it.

pneumo · 09-06-2008, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soldave

I've thought about it, and I know I can send my ECU to dsmchips and get it all changed so I can use DSM chips. Can't really afford the downtime on my car though as it's a daily driver and I'm pretty isolated where I live.

But I do have full access to fuelling and timing maps and I edit with Tunerpro RT. Editing is in realtime but unfortunately I don't have a definition file to datalog in Tunerpro and have to datalog in Pocketlogger. Makes mapping a little more difficult as we don7t know exactly which load points we are hitting at what time, but we can work with it.

There's a better logger available from the 'Files' section of the DSM-ecu group at yahoo.com You might have to be a member to view it. It's called Pocketdyno and it can show load row and column so you know exactly where you are. There are several other functions that Pocketlogger doesn't have.
see
autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dsm-ecu/files/Applications/

soldave · 09-07-2008, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pneumo

There's a better logger available from the 'Files' section of the DSM-ecu group at yahoo.com You might have to be a member to view it. It's called Pocketdyno and it can show load row and column so you know exactly where you are. There are several other functions that Pocketlogger doesn't have.
see
autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dsm-ecu/files/Applications/

Downloaded it but don't really see what it can offer me above the Pocketlogger and my Rev/Speed meter. Not too sure how the dyno works on it but without any sort of g-sensor I doubt it can be that accurate. And how can it show load row and column on Tunerpro RT?

bastarddsm · 09-07-2008, 02:36 PM

pneumo, so your saying that it can log the load cell you in along with the other parameters, so you can say at xx rpm and yy load, the a/f was lean so i need to richen it up there?

If this is true why does anyone even buy dsmlink for a 1G?

soldave · 09-07-2008, 06:54 PM

Well, another day of tuning, another story to tell and more issues to discuss. After doing a few pulls, we were a little down on power and the boost, while spiking and then holding a little, tailed off towards the top of the rpm range. In fact, after a while we concluded that we were only holding about 1.3 bar/19psi. Went back and put a bit more preload on the actuator so we now have about 1/16-1/8" of preload on it which is quite a bit of tension. We did some more logged runs and were finding some decent power and holding at around 1.46bar/21psi. But we were starting to spike a bit. When we finished the tuning we found I was spiking to around 1.8bar/26psi. That's getting a little too high and at that point my boost controller warning was kicking in and cutting my power. Strangely, the boost spike seemed bigger when doing a 4th gear pull than when going up through the gears.

Friend reckons the internal wastegate is not doing a great job, and that an external one would sort my spiking out and help me hold a little more boost. There could be boost leaks, but it's going to have to be a hell of a leak to give these effects. We also tried a manual boost controller which has the same effect, so that has been ruled out. So we're going to teflon tape and RTV the hell out of the turbo and do a boost leak test on the intake system to find out if there are any big leaks. If not, then an external wastegate might have to be on the shopping list.

Now the good news comes later in the night, when I was driving home on the expressway and decided to floor it on a quiet stretch in 4th. Got the following figures out of my Rev Speed meter:

While I'm very pleased I've smashed through the 400ps barrier and am now at 408ps/402hp (and this is being recorded, maybe slightly inaccurately but it's all I can do, at the wheels), the more observant of you will look at that picture and think "Hang on... you made that power at 5,400rpm?!". Yup, with the boost spike as it spools up I am holding the 1.8bar/27psi boost spike for about 750-1000rpm which is making me huge power before it settles back down. Consequently, I'm making more power at 5,400rpm than I am at redline! Tell you one thing though, the 2nd and 3rd gear pulls at WOT are vicious now; much stronger than the small 16G.

Comments are always appreciated, especially regarding the wastegate issue. Have to say, at this point in time I'm not hugely impressed with the Bullseye Power T04B.

bastarddsm · 09-07-2008, 08:49 PM

I cannot comment on the boost spike. those are some good hp numbers. You hp peak at 5400 is as expected if you are rocking stock cams

soldave · 09-07-2008, 09:36 PM

The only reason it was peaking there is because that's where the boost was spiking before it came back down. Got knows what would happen if I could hold that boost all the way to redline without something going bang. That would be a scary ride...

Not rocking stock cams though - I have 264 Comp Cams in there.