Leaded Wideband?

Echo5Zulu · 08-01-2007, 09:51 AM

Since great new products come out everyday; has anyone come up with a wideband o2 sensor that can handle lead? I know Denso makes a stock narrow band that can. If not how long would a wideband last in a leaded environment for tuning purposes?

Defiant · 08-02-2007, 03:44 AM

I don't know that there's a good answer to be had. The leaded fuel deposits supposedly coat the sensor, and I'm not clear on whether it's supposed to cause electrical failure through shorting or through insulating. And, running unleaded will possibly cook it back off.
If you can find real answers, please give us a source.

Echo5Zulu · 08-02-2007, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defiant

I don't know that there's a good answer to be had. The leaded fuel deposits supposedly coat the sensor, and I'm not clear on whether it's supposed to cause electrical failure through shorting or through insulating. And, running unleaded will possibly cook it back off.
If you can find real answers, please give us a source.

I havent found anything out so far I'll post if I do though. Maybe I'll contact Denso and see if theyre working on it. They should be able to use the same anti lead poisoning techniques in a wideband as the narrow band right? From what I remember of the description I think they coat the tip or have an extra shield of some sort to prevent the lead poisoning. Dont quote me on that though.

Echo5Zulu · 08-08-2007, 08:55 AM

I just recieved an PM email from synthetek (sp.?) that said he saw a mention of life longevity of wideband o2 sensors on the Zeitronix websight to be like 50-500 hours. Kind of a large range but I guess it all depends on your engine tune. I'll post more when I find it.

sbiggi · 08-08-2007, 09:02 AM

The o2 sensor heater cant burn off the lead, so it clogs the pump and the sensor stops reading correctly.

If you plan on running leaded gas, then plan on replacing the sensors pretty often.

Echo5Zulu · 08-08-2007, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbiggi

The o2 sensor heater cant burn off the lead, so it clogs the pump and the sensor stops reading correctly.

If you plan on running leaded gas, then plan on replacing the sensors pretty often.

You are correct thats why for the standard narrow band o2 Im running the Denso o2 because it can handle it a little better and last longer because it has an extra filter in it. I wouldnt expect a wide band to last very long though. Maybe I'll just install a sniffer kit for tuning sessions.

Anyone have any experience with wideband sniffer kits for tuning sessions or suggestions?

aero_sallee · 08-08-2007, 11:40 AM

Depending on the lead content of the fuel used, the expected service life time is: (preliminary data)
for 0.6 g Pb/l: 20,000 km
for 0.4 g Pb/l: 30,000 km
for 0.15 g Pb/l: 60,000 km
for 0.00 g Pb/l: 160,000 km (ie. unleaded)

Extrapolating this Bosch data suggest that at 1.5 g/l the life may be as low as 2,000 km or just 20 hours at 100 km/h. AvGas 100LL has 0.56 g/l Pb, suggesting a sensor life of 200 hours. Compare this to a suggested life of 1,600 hours for unleaded.

From
http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsu4.htm

123bobby123 · 08-08-2007, 09:16 PM

^^^Awesome find man.

Bill

Echo5Zulu · 08-09-2007, 12:22 PM

Yes nice find. Correct me if Im wrong but did you say the leaded gas Im running may be 1.5g/liter therefore only resulting in a life of 20 hours at 100km/hr or only 1200mi's? That is pretty short.

I'll see if I can find out how much lead is in my TORCO 110 Leaded.

aero_sallee · 08-09-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echo5Zulu

Yes nice find. Correct me if Im wrong but did you say the leaded gas Im running may be 1.5g/liter therefore only resulting in a life of 20 hours at 100km/hr or only 1200mi's? That is pretty short.

I'll see if I can find out how much lead is in my TORCO 110 Leaded.

It may be worth experimenting with one of these products to see how effective they are and whether they negatively effect the knock resistance. I would assume the effect would be negligible, since detonation resistance in aircraft engines is of utmost importance since they don't have any kind of adjustable ignition.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...s/alcortcp.php
http://www.decalinchemicals.com/fueladditive.html

http://www.smithtex.com/racing/fuelcomp.html
List of common race fuels, and the lead content of quite a few. Lead content is g/gal on that chart so divide by ~3.78 to get g/ltr.

Unfortunately it does not list lead content for Torco 110.

Echo5Zulu · 08-10-2007, 06:13 AM

Even more good finds thanks, I'll start reading them now.

pballer · 08-10-2007, 09:30 AM

In the AEM EUGO manual, It says 10,000km with heavily leaded fuel.

Echo5Zulu · 08-10-2007, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pballer

In the AEM EUGO manual, It says 10,000km with heavily leaded fuel.

Thanks for the reply. Is the AEM EUGO what your running? How do you like it? 10000km is 6213mi's so that isn't too bad. What sensor are they using? Is it the Bosch?

LaserAWD · 08-10-2007, 10:02 AM

I'm using the FJO wideband and bought the NTK sensor isntead of the Bosch based on vendor recommendations for leaded fuel usage: http://www.titanmotorsports.com/fjo-so20003.html

Echo5Zulu · 08-10-2007, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserAWD

I'm using the FJO wideband and bought the NTK sensor isntead of the Bosch based on vendor recommendations for leaded fuel usage: http://www.titanmotorsports.com/fjo-so20003.html

Hey thanks for adding that. I think thats the only wideband we've come across so far that can handle lead and heat. FJO wideband is the name of the sensor right and NTK is the manufacterer correct? What controller do you use? What fuel are you using? What is your opinion on this product?

Is it 220 just for the sensor? It looks like you have to purchase everything seperatly wich can get pricey is this what you had to do? I wonder if that sensor could be used with other controllers such as the AEM EUGO or Autometer instead of the Bosch that comes with them.

Thanks.

Big Woo · 08-13-2007, 10:27 AM

Over the weekend I checked the litature from my Innovate LM-3. It states that useing the O2 sensor with leaded fuel will signifcantly reduce the sensors life. It goes on the say that the amount of reduction is proportional to the metal content of the fuel being used. For the Bosch O2 sensor it estimate a life of 50 to 5000 hours of operation depending on the fuel used.

I thought this might help.

Echo5Zulu · 08-13-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Woo

Over the weekend I checked the litature from my Innovate LM-3. It states that useing the O2 sensor with leaded fuel will signifcantly reduce the sensors life. It goes on the say that the amount of reduction is proportional to the metal content of the fuel being used. For the Bosch O2 sensor it estimate a life of 50 to 5000 hours of operation depending on the fuel used.

I thought this might help.

Thanks for the input. Side note: were almost neighbors! Reletively speaking (G.R. & Holland)

Anyway I would like to know more about the NTK sensor as in one of its advertisements it was described as being able to widthstand heat and lead, but doesnt say how much or how long.

I am also curious as to wether the autometer wideband could control the NTK sensor as the autometer would match the rest of my gages.

Anyone have any answers to these questions?

Thanks.

aero_sallee · 08-13-2007, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echo5Zulu

Thanks for the input. Side note: were almost neighbors! Reletively speaking (G.R. & Holland)

Anyway I would like to know more about the NTK sensor as in one of its advertisements it was described as being able to widthstand heat and lead, but doesnt say how much or how long.

I am also curious as to wether the autometer wideband could control the NTK sensor as the autometer would match the rest of my gages.

Anyone have any answers to these questions?

Thanks.

I'm not sure how long the NTK would last with leaded fuel. It would have to be quite a while to make it cost effective over a Bosch sensor. $60-70 vs $220 It had better last quite a while longer.

LaserAWD · 08-13-2007, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echo5Zulu

Hey thanks for adding that. I think thats the only wideband we've come across so far that can handle lead and heat. FJO wideband is the name of the sensor right and NTK is the manufacterer correct? What controller do you use? What fuel are you using? What is your opinion on this product?

Is it 220 just for the sensor? It looks like you have to purchase everything seperatly wich can get pricey is this what you had to do? I wonder if that sensor could be used with other controllers such as the AEM EUGO or Autometer instead of the Bosch that comes with them.

Thanks.

FJO is the company that makes the box to interface with the wideband or the controller. NTK is the brand of wideband (FJO can also be setup to support Bosch widebands IIRC). As far as my opinion I think the NTK sensor is the best you can buy and the FJO is a very proven product.

I run 93 octane around town and have been using a 110 leaded at the track. So far I haven't seen any perfomance decrease from the leaded fuel but I don't run it every weekend, only about one track trip a month right now. So there are a few tanks of 93 between to help keep the sensor "clean".

As of now I have their gauge on the A-piller an can log the unit with a laptop. The FJO has an rpm sensor and can log and output other sensors as well although I'm just doing the wideband and rpm right now. I'm currently running an old school TMO ECU/VPC/AFC setup but have an AEM EMS waiting and will interface it with the FJO once I install the AEM. Once interfaced it will all be able to be logged through the AEM.

I got a deal from a friend on my whole setup and it was just under $550 for the FJO single channel controller, gauge pod style guage and NTK sensor: http://www.titanmotorsports.com/fjowidebandkit.html

Yes the sensor itself is around $220 or so. The NTK sensor has been used in others cars for nearly 4 years without showing signs of lead damage. So I think it'll makeup for itself in the long run as I've heard of similar cars using Bosch sensors and going through 2 sensors a season. At that rate even if it only last two years it's a better deal than buying 4 bosch sensors. Plus I think other places on the net sell the NTK sensor for around $190 or so.

I think there is a company called something like ATK or AFR or something like that, anyways they offer the NTK sensor as an option but it almost doubles the cost of their system so they advertise the price with the Bosch type sensor included.

Hope that helps.

Echo5Zulu · 08-13-2007, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserAWD

FJO is the company that makes the box to interface with the wideband or the controller. NTK is the brand of wideband (FJO can also be setup to support Bosch widebands IIRC). As far as my opinion I think the NTK sensor is the best you can buy and the FJO is a very proven product.

I run 93 octane around town and have been using a 110 leaded at the track. So far I haven't seen any perfomance decrease from the leaded fuel but I don't run it every weekend, only about one track trip a month right now. So there are a few tanks of 93 between to help keep the sensor "clean".

As of now I have their gauge on the A-piller an can log the unit with a laptop. The FJO has an rpm sensor and can log and output other sensors as well although I'm just doing the wideband and rpm right now. I'm currently running an old school TMO ECU/VPC/AFC setup but have an AEM EMS waiting and will interface it with the FJO once I install the AEM. Once interfaced it will all be able to be logged through the AEM.

I got a deal from a friend on my whole setup and it was just under $550 for the FJO single channel controller, gauge pod style guage and NTK sensor: http://www.titanmotorsports.com/fjowidebandkit.html

Yes the sensor itself is around $220 or so. The NTK sensor has been used in others cars for nearly 4 years without showing signs of lead damage. So I think it'll makeup for itself in the long run as I've heard of similar cars using Bosch sensors and going through 2 sensors a season. At that rate even if it only last two years it's a better deal than buying 4 bosch sensors. Plus I think other places on the net sell the NTK sensor for around $190 or so.

I think there is a company called something like ATK or AFR or something like that, anyways they offer the NTK sensor as an option but it almost doubles the cost of their system so they advertise the price with the Bosch type sensor included.

Hope that helps.

Yes thank you.

Did it come with any literature talking about leaded fuel lifespan?

Also would it work with an autometer controler?

Im searching around the net right now I'll post if anything pops up.

Thanks.