crank pulley seperation

[RoasT BeeF]

Yes well my crank pulley seperated this morning. I did a search and read a few threads where people were saying to buy a new pulley. My question is can I just replace the rubber seal or is the only option to buy a new pulley entirely?

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
Yes well my crank pulley seperated this morning. I did a search and read a few threads where people were saying to buy a new pulley. My question is can I just replace the rubber seal or is the only option to buy a new pulley entirely?

Does it ever end... Sorry but the pully is history. The rubber is vulcanized in place with heat and pressure while held in place to keep an exact center.

As an emergency you can drill 3 holes equally spaced into the rubber section but also large enough that they encompass the inner and outer ring. Then insert 3, 1" sheet metal screws a little at a time to hold center which will lock the 2 parts together. This is a temporary fix until you can get the part.

You have choices on the pulley for they make solid units and some which use a more rigid plastic which doesn't flex as much. The solid and harder plastics will transmit more noise but in all probability not a significant issue. You can check the classified here, local wrecking yard, or buy new.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

I know I told you I just cant win with this thing GTM... I have called all local junkyards but one and nobody has one. I email RallyGSX and am waiting for his reply. I searched the classifieds and PMed about 7 people on pulleys they had for sale. I am going to make a trip to that one last junkyard that I didnt call here in about 30 minutes. Hopefully I can find one there.

Thx man.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF

...
I searched the classifieds and PMed about 7 people on pulleys they had for sale. I am going to make a trip to that one last junkyard that I didnt call here in about 30 minutes. Hopefully I can find one there.

Perhaps a SOHC 1.8 L will fit??? Maybe even the V6?? If you have it off take with you so you can compare them if you can't confirm they will or will not fit. The thickness, hole size, woodruff keyway, belt width, and diameter will be the important issues. We see a lot more of the 1.8 engines than the 2.0 in the DIY wrecking yards. If they are DIY yards take tools including something to hold the crank from turning... large screwdrive through the starter hole. Alternately pull a spark plug and pour oil down the cylr(s) until it's full and replace plug. Don't forget some puller if it doesn't come right off but don't pry against the outer portion or you may damage the rubber cushion.

Don't forget Neons, Lasers, Montegos which also used parts of the same engine. Knowing what parts are the same greatly expands your choices.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Morphius]

Originally posted by GTM
You have choices on the pulley for they make solid units and some which use a more rigid plastic which doesn't flex as much. The solid and harder plastics will transmit more noise but in all probability not a significant issue.

Putting a unit on that is solid and has no dampning feature is detrimental to the crank. Unless, he's running a race or drag car, it's strongly not suggested.

Which aftermarket companies make one? I'm interested in looking at them.

 

[Morphius]

Originally posted by GTM
Perhaps a SOHC 1.8 L will fit??? Maybe even the V6??

No, a 1.8 liter won't fit. I already looked into that once, in an emergency. The above ^^^ are a good suggestion for a temproary fix, but the unit should be replaced with the correct dampner as soon as possible.

My suggestion is to buy a new one. It's worth the money, and you won't have to worry about it for at least another 100K+ miles. I've been through five of them and each time I installed another used one. They will all fail between 120K-150K. At least the five I had did.

 

[Morphius]

Has anybody installed a 2G dampner on a 1G? The 2G one is better designed but is pressfit on vs bolted on. I'm curious if you can interchange them, as I'd rather install the 2G one.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Morphius
Putting a unit on that is solid and has no dampning feature is detrimental to the crank. Unless, he's running a race or drag car, it's strongly not suggested.

Aw, com'on Morph, you don't think I'm gonna let ya get away with that!!!

For 80-100 years the European car makers have been doing without balancers and vibration dampners including 4, 6, 8, 12, and 16 cylr engines. Henry didn't have them on his inline 4 in the T or A series. VW & Porsche didn't even have counter weights on the cranks. The first place I ever saw a rubber centered & _balanced_ front pulley was on a piece of Detroit V8 and half of that was to get rid of crankshaft whip imparted into the belts. You know I've been around the block with this stuff and I don't stick my neck out without knowing this is just nonsense. If you want to contradict me do have citations included in the post so we can all see where I'm wrong rather than blanket contradiction which only screw with the readers trying to figure out who to believe.

Which aftermarket companies make one? I'm interested in looking at them. [/B]

I _think_ some of the after-market companies are in part sponsors here on DSMtuners. Some makers color code the rubber/plastic insulators, of course you can get the solid in anodize aluminum or simple cast iron.

Cheers,
GTM
GTM

 

[Morphius]

Originally posted by GTM
For 80-100 years the European car makers have been doing without balancers and vibration dampners including 4, 6, 8, 12, and 16 cylr engines.

I'll admit I'm not that familiar with the Eupopean cars. Can you direct me to a specific site? Personally, other than a race application, I've not seen a engine without a dampner.

Dampners can be the typical rubber type as on DSMs. Fluid type such as FluidDympr. or semi-mechanical type like the Rattler by TCI. Their purpose is to dampen harmonic vibrations that cause metal fatigue and unquestionably accelerate bearing and crankshaft wear.

Originally posted by GTM
Henry didn't have them on his inline 4 in the T or A series.

They didn't design them for 150K either. How may cars actually had 20K (or more) on them? On another note, I don't think they had the equipment to measure or even study the effects of harmonics at that point.

Originally posted by GTM
VW & Porsche didn't even have counter weights on the cranks.

I beleive this is due to the "boxer" design. The cylinders are opposed. Forces are 180 in direction to each other which negates counterweights. The pistons/rods were the counter weights.

Originally posted by GTM
You know I've been around the block with this stuff and I don't stick my neck out without knowing this is just nonsense. If you want to contradict me do have citations included in the post so we can all see where I'm wrong rather than blanket contradiction which only screw with the readers trying to figure out who to believe.

I don't doubt this. And no intention to. See my first question above.^^^

 

[turboholic]

Originally posted by Morphius
Which aftermarket companies make one? I'm interested in looking at them.

-Buschur Racing, under-drive, stock #10320-BR, $350.

-Roast Beef, the balancer seperated due to old age of the rubber, if you a used one from the junk yard, it might not last long either. $.02

 

[RoasT BeeF]

I know but I desperetly need one by Monday so anything will work for now. How much does a new one from the dealer cost? Anybody know? I didnt even call them cuz I was affraid it would be over $100 easy and they probably wouldnt have one in stock. I heard $60 so I might call them tomorrow. I didnt make it to the junkyard today before they closed so I'm going tomorrow.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by Morphius
I'll admit I'm not that familiar with the Eupopean cars.

Golly, then why go out on a limb... I don't know how many if any of these cars are still running solid crank pulleys. I'm not sure what you are asking, if it's what European companies didn't use harmonic balancers that I personally have worked on as a professional mechanic. Starting with the first letter and name that came to mind. A Alfa B Bugatti C Citron D Damlier E Elva F Ferrari G Griffith H Hispano Suisa I Isetta J Jensen K ? L Lancia M MB N ? O Opel P Pugeot Q ? R Renault S Simca T TVR U ? V Vaxhaul W X Y Yugo Z Zagato?

I certainly know Lancia had the ability to measure and calculate harmonic balance back in the mid to late 40's and didn't use them. GM had the original patent back in 1926 but I never had one on my first car which was a 1936 Buick, nor my second, 47 dodge, 3rd 50 chev w/ GMC 6...remember GM didn't have a V8 until 57-58?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
I know but I desperetly need one by Monday so anything will work for now. How much does a new one from the dealer cost? Anybody know? I didnt even call them cuz I was affraid it would be over $100 easy and they probably wouldnt have one in stock. I heard $60 so I might call them tomorrow. I didnt make it to the junkyard today before they closed so I'm going tomorrow.

I thought I had read the factory pulley was $47 but don't hold me to that. At the wrecking yard take a look at the rubber and see if it is still slick smooth. Look for smog checking or little ripples or eruptions maybe like the edge of your tire when you have slid sideways. The ripples may be showing you the early sign of stress, tears or eruptions, walk away. A lot of yards out here offer extended warranties for just a few bucks so that's another choice to make.

I've driven hundreds of miles on the 3 screw temporary repair, I've had to redo or found a screw had loosened and needed to be tightened. I seem to recall even drilling and tapping threads in one unit while I waited for parts. You got nothing to loose by trying except 1/2 hour out of your life. A Doctor friend called me from Yosemite and I told this repair which got him home.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Well I just called the dealership and a new crank pulley is $140.12. Thats outrageous. I'm going to the junkyard and if I dont find one there, RallyGSX says he will hook me up with one. If for some reason I dont get it by monday I may have to use GTM's idea as a last resort to get me the 3 miles I need to go for my job training classes.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
...
pulley is $140.12. Thats outrageous.
...
I need to go for my job training classes.

Yegads, did you tell them you were not asking to buy stock in the company. Ouch!

New JOB!! That's the best news I've heard. Nice thing about a job is keeping you off the street and spending money. Let's hope the wrecking yard or RallyGSX can fix you up.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Morphius]

Originally posted by GTM
Golly, then why go out on a limb... I don't know how many if any of these cars are still running solid crank pulleys. I'm not sure what you are asking, if it's what European companies didn't use harmonic balancers that I personally have worked on as a professional mechanic. Starting with the first letter and name that came to mind. A Alfa B Bugatti C Citron D Damlier E Elva F Ferrari G Griffith H Hispano Suisa I Isetta J Jensen K ? L Lancia M MB N ? O Opel P Pugeot Q ? R Renault S Simca T TVR U ? V Vaxhaul W X Y Yugo Z Zagato?

I have worked on a late 70's and early 80's Renault. Stateside version of the R5. (LeCar... remember those?) Working on that makes a DSM look like a cakewalk. Anyhow, it had a balancer. How many European cars of old do you hear of that have clicked off a significant amount of mileage, and still have a good engine that didn't have a harmonic balancer? They didn't add a harmonic balancer for kicks and giggles. It goes hand in hand with the technology and increases in mileage/longevity. As the necessity for increased mileage continues, things ignored before must be addressed.

How many million mile rigs running the states have NO harmonic balancer? Bet you won't find one.

Originally posted by GTM
I certainly know Lancia had the ability to measure and calculate harmonic balance back in the mid to late 40's and didn't use them. GM had the original patent back in 1926 but I never had one on my first car which was a 1936 Buick, nor my second, 47 dodge, 3rd 50 chev w/ GMC 6...remember GM didn't have a V8 until 57-58?

Trying to remember at what point Cadillac was part of GM, but Cadiallac had the first V8, type 51 in 1914. First OHC V8 in 49'. Chevrolet had their first V8, the 265, in 55.

Back home I have the following setting awaiting revival, Willys trucks:47, 49, 51, and 59 w/inline 4's/6's; A 66' Chevy with a 230 inline 6, 65 w/ a 230 six; a 47 & 45 2 1/4 ton militatry 4x4's with a 300 "big" sixs. Gramps bone yard: 40's Ford w/flathead v8, 2-50's Ford Galaxies, 52 Dodge truck w/inline 6, 2-40's IHC stock trucks w/inline 6's, 50's Dodge dump truck w/ inline 6, 60 GMC stock w/V6. 63 impala w/230 six. Besides a ton of other 60's, 70's and 80's GM trucks. All had harmonic balancers.

The 40's Cockshutt combine setting on our place, with a predessor of the Chrysler slant 6 - a flathead 6, has a harmonic balancer.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

I picked up a pulley from the DIY junkyard for $11. It is actually in really good shape too. I slapped it on tonight and fired her up. I watched the pulley for a few minutes after I started it just to make sure it was going to be ok. Everything looked cool.

I also have some awesome news! For those of you who were following my "new head wont start" thread and especially GTM will be happy to hear that after installing this pulley my car started first try and idled allllllllllll by itself at about 1100 RPM until it warmed up and settled down to 800 just like it should!!!!!! I couldnt believe it. Now that is great and all but I still cant figure out why a bad crank pulley would cause the problems I was getting...? Doesnt make sense to me, maybe u have some input. Either way I'm not complaining! I'm not going to touch this thing again unless I have to.

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
I picked up a pulley from the DIY junkyard for $11.
...
head wont start" thread and especially GTM will be happy to hear that after installing this pulley my car started first try and idled allllllllllll by itself at about 1100 RPM until it warmed up and settled down to 800 just like it should!!!!!! I couldnt believe it. Now that is great and all but I still cant figure out why a bad crank pulley would cause the problems I was getting...? Doesnt make sense to me, maybe u have some input. Either way I'm not complaining! I'm not going to touch this thing again unless I have to.

Double Hot Dang!!! Nuttin like killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

Were you able to save any of the datalogger data, I would like to know what the knock sensor was reporting before it (pilley) completely let go?

That's the only thing I can think of which would have an influence on the air fuel mix with that rattling on the hub the sensor picked it up as pinging and would then add more fuel thus causing the rich condition you were reporting. Yegads yegads, that certainly is a first and I NEVER would have guess that in a million years. I know I've pulled knock sensors to help diagnose problems where a bad transmission bearing was being picked up.

Anyone else have some ideas?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[RoasT BeeF]

No I didnt get a log... I only use my datalogger every now and then I dont just have it plugged in all the time. You really think a crank pulley seperating would cause enough vibration to trip the knock sensor? Now that I think about it I do remember feeling an unusal vibration at idle after I did the head swap...

 

[GTM]

Originally posted by RoasT BeeF
No I didnt get a log... I only use my datalogger every now and then I dont just have it plugged in all the time. You really think a crank pulley seperating would cause enough vibration to trip the knock sensor? Now that I think about it I do remember feeling an unusal vibration at idle after I did the head swap...

Too bad about not having the log for that would have been the only real proof that the theory is correct. I don't know that it was vibration as much as a metalic click/clunk that the sensor was picking up.

You should probably write a final on the other thread for those who were following it will know the results.

Cheers,
GTM