rough idle and no low end power

[linksys42]

Ok so the mech timing is on (all lined up), and there are no boost leaks (well a small one the throttle body shaft seals but it’s not bad at all). And I am replacing the trans motor mount tonight. But I still have this loss of power and rough idle? Plugs are good/new (the old ones that came out were a little white/glazed on the ground electrode) and wires are good/new. Compression is 162, 162,156,162 not bad at all except #2 but there is only a 6psi difference. There is a weird sound I am getting after I take it out for some spirited driving coming from the trany is sounds like a rattle at idle but when I depress the clutch it goes away and I can only hear it at idle, I think it’s the throw out bearing, what else could that sound be? And what else could be draining the low end power and partial throttle power? Thanks

 

[huafist]

Ok so the mech timing is on (all lined up), and there are no boost leaks (well a small one the throttle body shaft seals but it's not bad at all). And I am replacing the trans motor mount tonight. But I still have this loss of power and rough idle? Plugs are good/new (the old ones that came out were a little white/glazed on the ground electrode) and wires are good/new. Compression is 162, 162,156,162 not bad at all except #2 but there is only a 6psi difference. There is a weird sound I am getting after I take it out for some spirited driving coming from the trany is sounds like a rattle at idle but when I depress the clutch it goes away and I can only hear it at idle, I think it's the throw out bearing, what else could that sound be? And what else could be draining the low end power and partial throttle power? Thanks

Check your base (spark) timing.
As far as the rattle, sounds like a throwout bearing to me.

 

[linksys42]

Check your base (spark) timing.
As far as the rattle, sounds like a throwout bearing to me.

On the second gens the base timing is controlled by the ECU, the ECU uses the crank angle sensor and cam angle sensor to control the base time, you can't set it/control it like a first gen by turning the cam angle sensor, correct me if im wrong. Thanks

 

[huafist]

On the second gens the base timing is controlled by the ECU, the ECU uses the crank angle sensor and cam angle sensor to control the base time, you can't set it/control it like a first gen by turning the cam angle sensor, correct me if im wrong. Thanks

My bad, it looked like '90' and not '99' here - you're right.

You've verified proper operation of the CPS and CAS, right?

 

[linksys42]

You've verified proper operation of the CPS and CAS, right?

I don’t have a check engine light if the crank sensor goes the engine wont start, and the timing looks all right its right about 6 to 8 degrees it just is kind of jumpy with a timing light.

 

[huafist]

I don’t have a check engine light if the crank sensor goes the engine wont start, and the timing looks all right its right about 6 to 8 degrees it just is kind of jumpy with a timing light.

I've seen mechanical failure of CAS's before that do not throw CEL lights. That was an extreme case, however, it caused the car to not fire on 2 cylinders. Have you checked the new plugs since they were put in to see what they look like?

 

[linksys42]

ya im getting spark, i pulled the plug wires one by one while the car was running last night. its getting spark. firing at all cylinders

 

[huafist]

ya im getting spark, i pulled the plug wires one by one while the car was running last night. its getting spark. firing at all cylinders

What do the ends of the new plugs look like? Have you verified that all 4 injectors are working properly? There's only so many things that can cause stuff like this.
Also, when you did your boost leak test, did you pressurize to 20psi? How did you check? By feeling around or with soapy water?

 

[linksys42]

What do the ends of the new plugs look like? Have you verified that all 4 injectors are working properly? There's only so many things that can cause stuff like this.
Also, when you did your boost leak test, did you pressurize to 20psi? How did you check? By feeling around or with soapy water?

They are a little white/glazing. the injectors seem to be working properly they are clicking but I haven't verified that there is gas getting into the chamber, (what is the best way to verify that?) pull the plug wires and turn it over then pull the plugs to see if they are soaked with gas? I guess I could do it that way. I pressurized it to 18 to 20 from the throttle body elbow then from the lower intercooler, then from the turbo compressor and held the throttle at WOT. And I used a mech stethoscope with a piece of vacuum tubing attached to it to track all of them down. You can't miss them with a stethoscope. thanks

 

[huafist]

They are a little white/glazing. the injectors seem to be working properly they are clicking but I haven’t verified that there is gas getting into the chamber, (what is the best way to verify that?) pull the plug wires and turn it over then pull the plugs to see if they are soaked with gas? I guess I could do it that way. I pressurized it to 18 to 20 from the throttle body elbow then from the lower intercooler, then from the turbo compressor and held the throttle at WOT. And I used a mech stethoscope with a piece of vacuum tubing attached to it to track all of them down. You can’t miss them with a stethoscope. thanks

Do the boost leak test again with a spray bottle full of soapy water, you might be surprised what you find. The plugs being white indicate a likely lean condition, which if you're on a stock fuel system the only cause I can think of at idle would be a boost/vacuum leak letting unmetered air into the system. The other possibility is an incorrect plug heat range or improper gap causing the plug to get too hot. This would also cause a misfire and rough idle.
If the injectors are clicking I doubt they're the problem, you'd be missing throughout the RPM range if one was stuck.

 

[linksys42]

Do the boost leak test again with a spray bottle full of soapy water, you might be surprised what you find. The plugs being white indicate a likely lean condition, which if you're on a stock fuel system the only cause I can think of at idle would be a boost/vacuum leak letting unmetered air into the system. The other possibility is an incorrect plug heat range or improper gap causing the plug to get too hot. This would also cause a misfire and rough idle.

I have done a boost leak test around 6 or 7 times now and I have fixed all of the leaks. But I will try it again. The mech stethoscope I would think would be much more accurate than soap and water but I will use both this time. Vacuum leaks are hard to miss with the stethoscope (they are really pronounced if there is one with the stethoscope) but I will try the soap and water. The plugs are 6es and they are gaped to .029. Thanks again

 

[linksys42]

Ok so I don’t have any boost leaks anymore fixed the throttle body leak. It is getting worse the idle is missing pretty bad and the plugs are white #1 and #2 (especially #2) are white. And I am loosing power even more. I can’t figure this out? The compression is #1-163, #2-155, #3-162, #4-165. Leak down is #1-3%, #2-12%, #3-4%, #4-2%. It has no throttle response or partial throttle power, I have changes the plugs 3 times, fuel filter is new, plug wires are new, timing is dead on. Here is a log of a run 1st thru 3rd. im not getting into it anymore because of the white/lean plugs but I have to drive this every day and it really sucks to drive it like this it just crawls along. I just don’t want to destroy my motor I need to get this lean condition resolved. Thanks

Time, Short Term Fuel Trim 1,RPM,Timing,TPS,O2 1 Bank 1,O2 Trim 1 Bank 1
00:33.00, 2.0, 918.0, 8.0, 8.64, 0.86, 2.34
00:33.29, 3.0, 1020.0, 13.0, 16.11, 0.84, 2.34
00:33.56, 2.0, 1875.0, 26.0, 15.32, 0.76, 1.56
00:33.84, 1.0, 2148.0, 27.0, 16.11, 0.24, 0.78
00:34.13, 2.0, 2191.0, 27.0, 17.29, 0.92, 1.56
00:34.40, 0.0, 2180.0, 26.0, 21.61, 0.88, 0.0
00:34.70, -1.0, 2176.0, 23.0, 24.75, 0.28, -1.56
00:34.97, 2.0, 2230.0, 21.0, 29.86, 0.12, 1.56
00:35.25, 2.0, 2520.0, 18.0, 31.83, 0.86, 2.34
00:35.54, -1.0, 2758.0, 15.0, 31.83, 0.86, 0.0
00:36.04, 0.0, 2875.0, 11.0, 31.83, 0.86, 0.0
00:36.33, 0.0, 3953.0, 15.0, 31.83, 0.96, 0.0
00:36.83, 0.0, 4500.0, 19.0, 31.83, 0.94, 0.0
00:37.11, 0.0, 5258.0, 15.0, 52.65, 0.98, 0.0
00:37.61, 0.0, 6039.0, 20.0, 44.4, 0.78, 0.0
00:37.88, 0.0, 5379.0, 35.0, 1.18, 0.76, 0.0
00:38.16, 0.0, 4926.0, 29.0, 38.51, 0.94, 0.0
00:38.45, 0.0, 227.0, 13.0, 39.69, 0.98, 0.0
00:38.72, 0.0, 4094.0, 11.0, 42.83, 0.96, 0.0
00:39.00, 0.0, 4309.0, 11.0, 61.69, 0.98, 0.0
00:39.50, 0.0, 4730.0, 12.0, 71.91, 0.98, 0.0
00:39.79, 0.0, 4992.0, 12.0, 75.44, 0.98, 0.0
00:40.08, 0.0, 5258.0, 15.0, 77.41, 0.96, 0.0
00:40.36, 0.0, 5516.0, 16.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:40.65, 0.0, 5711.0, 18.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:41.15, 0.0, 5953.0, 20.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:41.43, 0.0, 6309.0, 22.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:41.72, 0.0, 6488.0, 22.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:42.00, 0.0, 6660.0, 33.0, 0.0, 0.76, 0.0
00:42.27, 0.0, 6035.0, 38.0, 7.86, 0.74, 0.0
00:42.56, 0.0, 5559.0, 27.0, 49.9, 0.92, 0.0
00:43.06, 0.0, 4492.0, 12.0, 60.12, 0.96, 0.0
00:43.34, 0.0, 4703.0, 10.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:43.61, 0.0, 4813.0, 12.0, 80.94, 0.96, 0.0
00:43.90, 0.0, 4891.0, 12.0, 80.55, 0.96, 0.0

 

[prophecymiller]

Hey, just wondering if you had an update or figured it out???

 

[linksys42]

No not yet, im thinking it's a partially blown head gasket or the oil cooler. Because I have a good amount of oil in my coolant reservoir but the strange thing is that there isn't that much oil in the coolant in the thermostat housing when I take the cap off, and there is no sign of coolant in the oil? also the fan is kicking on all the time so im thinking the ecu is having a hard time keeping the engine cool!! Can the head gasket just be partially blown? Also im seeing specs on my plugs im guessing from detonation!! What should I do first to fix it, what does it sound like is the real problem??? Thanks

 

[linksys42]

Anyone have any advice?

 

[92Talon251]

Ok so I don't have any boost leaks anymore fixed the throttle body leak. It is getting worse the idle is missing pretty bad and the plugs are white #1 and #2 (especially #2) are white. And I am loosing power even more. I can't figure this out? The compression is #1-163, #2-155, #3-162, #4-165. Leak down is #1-3%, #2-12%, #3-4%, #4-2%. It has no throttle response or partial throttle power, I have changes the plugs 3 times, fuel filter is new, plug wires are new, timing is dead on. Here is a log of a run 1st thru 3rd. im not getting into it anymore because of the white/lean plugs but I have to drive this every day and it really sucks to drive it like this it just crawls along. I just don't want to destroy my motor I need to get this lean condition resolved. Thanks

Time, Short Term Fuel Trim 1,RPM,Timing,TPS,O2 1 Bank 1,O2 Trim 1 Bank 1
00:33.00, 2.0, 918.0, 8.0, 8.64, 0.86, 2.34
00:33.29, 3.0, 1020.0, 13.0, 16.11, 0.84, 2.34
00:33.56, 2.0, 1875.0, 26.0, 15.32, 0.76, 1.56
00:33.84, 1.0, 2148.0, 27.0, 16.11, 0.24, 0.78
00:34.13, 2.0, 2191.0, 27.0, 17.29, 0.92, 1.56
00:34.40, 0.0, 2180.0, 26.0, 21.61, 0.88, 0.0
00:34.70, -1.0, 2176.0, 23.0, 24.75, 0.28, -1.56
00:34.97, 2.0, 2230.0, 21.0, 29.86, 0.12, 1.56
00:35.25, 2.0, 2520.0, 18.0, 31.83, 0.86, 2.34
00:35.54, -1.0, 2758.0, 15.0, 31.83, 0.86, 0.0
00:36.04, 0.0, 2875.0, 11.0, 31.83, 0.86, 0.0
00:36.33, 0.0, 3953.0, 15.0, 31.83, 0.96, 0.0
00:36.83, 0.0, 4500.0, 19.0, 31.83, 0.94, 0.0
00:37.11, 0.0, 5258.0, 15.0, 52.65, 0.98, 0.0
00:37.61, 0.0, 6039.0, 20.0, 44.4, 0.78, 0.0
00:37.88, 0.0, 5379.0, 35.0, 1.18, 0.76, 0.0
00:38.16, 0.0, 4926.0, 29.0, 38.51, 0.94, 0.0
00:38.45, 0.0, 227.0, 13.0, 39.69, 0.98, 0.0
00:38.72, 0.0, 4094.0, 11.0, 42.83, 0.96, 0.0
00:39.00, 0.0, 4309.0, 11.0, 61.69, 0.98, 0.0
00:39.50, 0.0, 4730.0, 12.0, 71.91, 0.98, 0.0
00:39.79, 0.0, 4992.0, 12.0, 75.44, 0.98, 0.0
00:40.08, 0.0, 5258.0, 15.0, 77.41, 0.96, 0.0
00:40.36, 0.0, 5516.0, 16.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:40.65, 0.0, 5711.0, 18.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:41.15, 0.0, 5953.0, 20.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:41.43, 0.0, 6309.0, 22.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:41.72, 0.0, 6488.0, 22.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:42.00, 0.0, 6660.0, 33.0, 0.0, 0.76, 0.0
00:42.27, 0.0, 6035.0, 38.0, 7.86, 0.74, 0.0
00:42.56, 0.0, 5559.0, 27.0, 49.9, 0.92, 0.0
00:43.06, 0.0, 4492.0, 12.0, 60.12, 0.96, 0.0
00:43.34, 0.0, 4703.0, 10.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0
00:43.61, 0.0, 4813.0, 12.0, 80.94, 0.96, 0.0
00:43.90, 0.0, 4891.0, 12.0, 80.55, 0.96, 0.0

Looks like you are running rich
A o2 sensor reading of .50 is a perfect burn .45(Personal Judgement) and lower is lean, .55 (Personal Judgement) and higher is rich.
you are reading about .74 and higher which is all rich

This is how I see it, tell me if i got the rows wrong did my best to recreate. When you did this run did you floor it cause the highest you got on your TPS was 77.8 If you had it floored it should of been about 99 or 98 97 around there.


RPM - Timming - TPS - O2 - Trim 1 Bank 1
918.0, 8.0, 8.64, 0.86, 2.34

1020.0, 13.0, 16.11, 0.84, 2.34

1875.0, 26.0, 15.32, 0.76, 1.56

2148.0, 27.0, 16.11, 0.24, 0.78

2191.0, 27.0, 17.29, 0.92, 1.56

2180.0, 26.0, 21.61, 0.88, 0.0

2176.0, 23.0, 24.75, 0.28, -1.56

2230.0, 21.0, 29.86, 0.12, 1.56

2520.0, 18.0, 31.83, 0.86, 2.34

2758.0, 15.0, 31.83, 0.86, 0.0

2875.0, 11.0, 31.83, 0.86, 0.0

3953.0, 15.0, 31.83, 0.96, 0.0

4500.0, 19.0, 31.83, 0.94, 0.0

5258.0, 15.0, 52.65, 0.98, 0.0

6039.0, 20.0, 44.4, 0.78, 0.0

5379.0, 35.0, 1.18, 0.76, 0.0

4926.0, 29.0, 38.51, 0.94, 0.0

227.0, 13.0, 39.69, 0.98, 0.0

4094.0, 11.0, 42.83, 0.96, 0.0

4309.0, 11.0, 61.69, 0.98, 0.0

4730.0, 12.0, 71.91, 0.98, 0.0

4992.0, 12.0, 75.44, 0.98, 0.0

5258.0, 15.0, 77.41, 0.96, 0.0

5516.0, 16.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0

5711.0, 18.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0

5953.0, 20.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0

6309.0, 22.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0

6488.0, 22.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0

6660.0, 33.0, 0.0, 0.76, 0.0

6035.0, 38.0, 7.86, 0.74, 0.0

5559.0, 27.0, 49.9, 0.92, 0.0

4492.0, 12.0, 60.12, 0.96, 0.0

4703.0, 10.0, 77.8, 0.96, 0.0

4813.0, 12.0, 80.94, 0.96, 0.0

 

[iiiwildfireiii]

I've got an idea. I'm having nearly the EXACT same problem as you. Log your coolant temps and tell me what you find. I'll go ahead and tell you...mine are going from 192 to 80 to 205 to 201 to 62 to 87 to 76 to 198 etc. etc. etc.

 

[Talesin]

Er? I was under the impression that on a narrowband O2, 0.84 at cycle-peak was pretty close to perfect. That .50 would be incredibly rich or lean (can't remember which way it goes).

 

[linksys42]

Er? I was under the impression that on a narrowband O2, 0.84 at cycle-peak was pretty close to perfect. That .50 would be incredibly rich or lean (can't remember which way it goes).

ya thats about right, he is talking about on a narrow band and .89 to .92 was the safe way to run at WOT with out a wide band. .50 is hole in the piston time at WOT!!! that guy shouldnt post if he doesnt know what he is talking (or taking a guess) about, if someone took his advice and tuned for .50 and toasted their engine i would be #$%$#@# pissed if it was me!!!!!!

 

[linksys42]

I've got an idea. I'm having nearly the EXACT same problem as you. Log your coolant temps and tell me what you find. I'll go ahead and tell you...mine are going from 192 to 80 to 205 to 201 to 62 to 87 to 76 to 198 etc. etc. etc.

it sounds like need to either burp the coolant system (air pockets), or test or replace the coolant temp sensor.

my coolant temps are steady but on the high side 205

 

[reNgrOets19]

Hey did u ever fix ## prob......my car sounds like its havin the same prob the check engine light came on i have no power at all and im gettin horrible gas mileage...

 

[linksys42]

Hey did u ever fix ## prob......my car sounds like its havin the same prob the check engine light came on i have no power at all and im gettin horrible gas mileage...

Find out why the CEL is on first, the ECU goes into limp mode when the CEL is tripped. fix that first.