Won’t start and tons of fuel dumping into cylinders: Please help diagnose

[Daveed]

Short story: Car won’t start and is dumping so much fuel into the cylinders that I am getting puddles in the dishes on top of the pistons.

Long Story: Got the car running a couple weeks ago. Ran it for maybe ½ hr on and off in the driveway while putting water into it and checking for leaks etc. Took it for a drive around the block (10 minutes max) and when I got back to the driveway it started running rough so I pulled it into the garage and A LOT of loud clicking/clacking noises started to come from the area around the injectors then the thing died and wouldn’t start again. The fuel light had been on while I had it in the garage (before the drive) so I put half a gallon into it so I could drive around the block without fear of running out of gas (a lot of good that did). I think I ran it out of fuel.

I put 3 gallons of premium into it and it still won’t start (fuel light is off now). I pulled the plugs and all of them were soaking wet with fuel and I can actually see fuel all over the cylinder. The #2 cylinder was the worst with an actual puddle of fuel in the piston “dish”.
I re-gapped the plugs to .030” (they were at ~.050!). The head I just put on the car is off of a non-turbo gallant (I swapped in the cams from my old head but forgot to re-gap the plugs).

I cleaned, re-gapped, and dried out the plugs again. This time I checked #1 for spark it does spark when turning over the motor. So I reinstalled the plugs and blew compressed air into the cylinder to dry out the fuel in there and it still wouldn’t start. Pulled the plugs again and everything was just as fuel flooded as before.

Where do I start to diagnose and fix this problem?
Thanks.


PS My search under “Flooded” yielded one discussion about failed capacitors will result in the injectors going to wide open. I didn’t understand quite what or where these capacitors are. (Edit: currently learning and reading from the VFAQ about capacitors, leaking capacitors and the ECU).

Update: Found this http://www.vfaq.com/FAQlocator-index.html and this http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127416&highlight=flooded and am currently reading them.

 

[huafist]

Short story: Car won’t start and is dumping so much fuel into the cylinders that I am getting puddles in the dishes on top of the pistons.

Long Story: Got the car running a couple weeks ago. Ran it for maybe ½ hr on and off in the driveway while putting water into it and checking for leaks etc. Took it for a drive around the block (10 minutes max) and when I got back to the driveway it started running rough so I pulled it into the garage and A LOT of loud clicking/clacking noises started to come from the area around the injectors then the thing died and wouldn’t start again. The fuel light had been on while I had it in the garage (before the drive) so I put half a gallon into it so I could drive around the block without fear of running out of gas (a lot of good that did). I think I ran it out of fuel.

I put 3 gallons of premium into it and it still won’t start (fuel light is off now). I pulled the plugs and all of them were soaking wet with fuel and I can actually see fuel all over the cylinder. The #2 cylinder was the worst with an actual puddle of fuel in the piston “dish”.
I re-gapped the plugs to .030” (they were at ~.050!). The head I just put on the car is off of a non-turbo gallant (I swapped in the cams from my old head but forgot to re-gap the plugs).

I cleaned, re-gapped, and dried out the plugs again. This time I checked #1 for spark it does spark when turning over the motor. So I reinstalled the plugs and blew compressed air into the cylinder to dry out the fuel in there and it still wouldn’t start. Pulled the plugs again and everything was just as fuel flooded as before.

Where do I start to diagnose and fix this problem?
Thanks.


PS My search under “Flooded” yielded one discussion about failed capacitors will result in the injectors going to wide open. I didn’t understand quite what or where these capacitors are.

Update: Found this http://www.vfaq.com/FAQlocator-index.html and this http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127416&highlight=flooded and am currently reading them.

Pull the ECU out from behind the dash, open it, and smell closely. If it smells like fish, it needs to be repaired.

 

[ddavisaf]

Pull the ECU out from behind the dash, open it, and smell closely. If it smells like fish, it needs to be repaired.

Change your oil also when you get it fixed before you go for a drive. I betcha your oil has a gallon of gas in it by now.

 

[Flavor-DSM]

Not sure how much this will help. Mine used to flood itself out really bad when trying to start. The fix was just a simple coolant temperature sensor. Basically it went bad and would read like -44* C.. Dumping the fuel in to get it started as if it was a Very cold day. Just something you could check to slowly pinpoint your problem. Hope this helps in anyway.

 

[Daveed]

Thanks for the tip on the ECU "smell test". Will do it tonight and report back monday (when I have access to a computer again).

For sure on the oil change (it already smells like gas on the dipstick)

Flavor, which sensor on yours went bad? There are several. Also, how did you determine it went bad and was reading the ultra low temp? Thanks.
That reminds me...when I turn the key on, the dash symbol for radiator lights up. But when I start the car (before the flooding problem) it would go away. I checked the water level at both the cap and the overflow and they were fine. Does the dash light coming on (then going off after engine started) indicate that one of the sensors may be bad?

Thanks guys.
Been doing some reading on the VFAQ on the ECUs. Pretty technical but great info.

 

[Flavor-DSM]

The sensor that went bad on mine was the Coolant Temperature Sensor. It's below the thermo. I knew mine went bad because on the datalogger I have it has a coolant temp reading and mine was reading abnormally low (-44* C) which is waaay below freezing in the middle of summer. Went to advanced and ordered a Coolant Temperature Sensor, I think it was around 28 bucks.. Unscrewed the old on and put the new one in. Started right up.. Mine would start normally with the sensor being bad but it would take a few minutes.. I would have to wait it out after the engine would flood itself.. Eventually I got lucky and it would start up (normally took around 5-10 mins).. I'm not too sure on your light question. I think all my lights turn on before I start my car, and then turn off after it started.. Not sure if there are any dummy lights for the coolant temp. sensor. Hope this helps bro.. and Good luck with your "bad luck machine" aka DSM.

 

[oldman]

First make sure the timing belt and balance shaft belt is still intact, make sure timing marks lines up then perform a compression test. If you're getting spark and fuel, only thing left is compression.

 

[Daveed]

Thanks for the response flav. Sounds like you had an easy time diagnosing that one. Do you know how I would figure that out without a datalogger? Thanks.

Oldman, Thanks for the suggestions. The timing belt is still in good shape. It's new but I pulled the top cover to see if everything looked okay from that vantage point. Currently the crank pulley mark and the camshaft pulleys line up where they are supposed to be at top dead center. I also replaced the balance belt while I was in the motor last month. I haven't removed the cover to see if the new balance belt is ok. I'll put it on the list. As for compression...I need to go buy a tester and quit borrowing my friends. I'll put it on the list also. Thanks.

 

[TUI2I30]

.. I would have to wait it out after the engine would flood itself..

Yep, could have ended up in your oil pan.

First make sure the timing belt and balance shaft belt is still intact, make sure timing marks lines up then perform a compression test. If you're getting spark and fuel, only thing left is compression.

As usual, you always seem to show up with the right direction!

 

[Daveed]

Here's my list for tonight.
1. Remove ECU and check for seafood smell (=leaky capacitors)
2. Check all timing marks on cams, crank, and balance belt.
3. Check and test the ecu coolant temperature sensor and the connection.
4. Disconnect injectors and check for spark on the rest of the cylinders (only did number 1 last night).

Thanks. I'll report back with my progress/results.

 

[Flavor-DSM]

Here's my list for tonight.
1. Remove ECU and check for seafood smell (=leaky capacitors)
2. Check all timing marks on cams, crank, and balance belt.
3. Check and test the ecu coolant temperature sensor and the connection.
4. Disconnect injectors and check for spark on the rest of the cylinders (only did number 1 last night).

Thanks. I'll report back with my progress/results.

Good luck bro.

 

[oldman]

4. Disconnect injectors and check for spark on the rest of the cylinders (only did number 1 last night).

If you can verify spark on all four, I would go ahead and steal that compression tester from your friend.

 

[Daveed]

Update: Checked the coolant temp sensor (both the ohms and volts were correct). Checked all the connections also...all were good.

Uncovered the ECU and did the smell test (no smell at all).

Went to check the timing alignment of cams vs crank.
It was 20 degrees off! I know I set it correctly when I put the thing back together. I made certain of it.

Here's my guess on what happened. The timing belt tensioner failed and the timing belt skipped a few teeth.

I applied air to the cylinder #1 at top dead center (utilizing the screwdriver in the spark plug hole method) and air comes out of the the intake and all of the other cylinders (spark plugs removed). I am guessing this means all of my intake valves are bent


Thanks for your help. I gotta take a break from this car (getting frustrated anyway) and finish putting a clutch in the commuter car. I'll get back to work on the TSI in about a month.

Thanks again for the help in pin pointing the problem and by the way...rep points are going to be distributed to those that helped.

 

[oldman]

Update: Checked the coolant temp sensor (both the ohms and volts were correct). Checked all the connections also...all were good.

Uncovered the ECU and did the smell test (no smell at all).

Went to check the timing alignment of cams vs crank.
It was 20 degrees off! I know I set it correctly when I put the thing back together. I made certain of it.

Here's my guess on what happened. The timing belt tensioner failed and the timing belt skipped a few teeth.

I applied air to the cylinder #1 at top dead center (utilizing the screwdriver in the spark plug hole method) and air comes out of the the intake and all of the other cylinders (spark plugs removed). I am guessing this means all of my intake valves are bent


Thanks for your help. I gotta take a break from this car (getting frustrated anyway) and finish putting a clutch in the commuter car. I'll get back to work on the TSI in about a month.

Thanks again for the help in pin pointing the problem and by the way...rep points are going to be distributed to those that helped.

Sorry to hear that, the tensioner would be my guess as well. I'm going to learn from your lesson, a new tensioner will be going in before I put the belt on. Good luck.

 

[Daveed]

I just realized (from reading this thread: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198708

that I checked compression at TDC on the crank. I should actually check it at TDC on the cams to confirm that the intake valves are bent. I'll have to do that soon. Anyway, thanks for the tips and help.

 

[oldman]

that I checked compression at TDC on the crank. I should actually check it at TDC on the cams to confirm that the intake valves are bent. I'll have to do that soon. Anyway, thanks for the tips and help.

You didn't perform a compression test, what you were trying to do was a half ass leakdown test . Perform a real compression test, if the valves are bent, you will probably register 0 across the board.