Clutch assembly weld didn't work. Now what?

[Turbo Girl]

After doing a lot of searching on this forum, I came to the conclusion that my clutch pedal assembly needed to be welded. After I let off the clutch, I could reach down and pull the pedal up another inch or so. The cluch wouldn't disengage until I turned the adjustment rod until it was holding on by only a couple of threads.

So I pulled out the assembly (which was a pita, by the way) and it was perfect. There was no wear at all. I got it welded just in case and I still have the same problem.

The car is a 92 AWD w/ a new ACT 2100.

What else could my problem be? I know I could fix it with an extended adjustment rod, but I'd rather really fix the problem.

Thanks.

 

[oldman]

I sincerely hope you didn't weld it in the wrong position which I suspect you might have, I almost did the same thing. If you could pull the assembly up and there's an inch of travel prior to the welding then there are no questions whether it's worn-ed. Let's me try and explain this clearly. Let's call the poisition of the pedal before you pull it up 1 inch the "down" position and after you pull it as the "up" position. It's very possible that after you remove the assembly you left it at the "down" position and welded it instead of pulling it to the "up" position first. Get under the dash again and check the height of the pedal against the brake pedal, they should be completely 100% leveled. If not, it's clear that you have welded it at the "down" position.

Couple more things that are important.

1. Make sure there are no leaks in the system, especially at MC and SC.

2. You have bled the system really really really well using the attaching a hose to the bleeder valve and submerging the other end in fresh fluid method. Also make sure you adjust the master cylinder push rod so you can see about 2 to 3 threads on the inside of the c-bracket before bleeding, you can readjust it after bleeding if need be.
http://www.plymouthlaser.com/slave2.htm

3. Replace the rubber clutch line with a ss clutch to prevent it from expanding under pressure.

I sincerely hope this helped as myself had struggle with this for months, pay special attention to #2 as bleeding it correctly can make a big difference. Good luck.

 

[Turbo Girl]

If the adjustment rod is not all the way out, the clutch pedal is below the brake pedal and I can pull it up an inch. The clutch will not release.

If I turn the adjustment rod all the way so it is hanging on by a thread, the cluch pedal loses its play, becomes even with the break pedal, and the clutch will release when the pedal is ALL the way to the floor.

I just have a hard time believing it is the assembly because it wasn't worn at all. That square hole at the top was perfect, and the round hole in the middle was too.

And with the assembly out of the car, there was no free play. It was up (all the way up) or down (all the way down). It would snap to one position or the other. It couldn't have been welded an inch down because there was no inch of free play when it was off the car.

But does the ability to pull the clutch up to even it with the brake while in the car mean it's the assembly? Even if I can "adjust" the play out?

 

[boosting_laser]

tabboospeedshop.com & rre (tech section) have alot of good info on our clutch systems.

 

[Turbo Girl]

When bleeding, I never paid attention to the position of the adjustment rod. If I leave just a few threads inside of the C-braket, it will be in a position where the pedal has free play and the clutch won't disengage. I should start bleeding like that?

Also, do you know what hose to put over the bleeder valve? Is there a certain size of vacuum line to use?

 

[oldman]

If the adjustment rod is not all the way out, the clutch pedal is below the brake pedal and I can pull it up an inch. The clutch will not release.

If I turn the adjustment rod all the way so it is hanging on by a thread, the cluch pedal loses its play, becomes even with the break pedal, and the clutch will release when the pedal is ALL the way to the floor.

The adjustment rod and pedal freeplay are independent of each other, trying to mix the two will only only confuse you more.

I just have a hard time believing it is the assembly because it wasn't worn at all. That square hole at the top was perfect, and the round hole in the middle was too.

And with the assembly out of the car, there was no free play. It was up (all the way up) or down (all the way down). It would snap to one position or the other. It couldn't have been welded an inch down because there was no inch of free play when it was off the car.

The snap you're describing with the assembly out is exactly what a freeplay is. If there was no freeplay, There would be no snapping back and forth between low and hi, it would only have one position, the hi position.

But does the ability to pull the clutch up to even it with the brake while in the car mean it's the assembly? Even if I can "adjust" the play out?

You can't adjust the play out, you can compensate for the freeplay by adjusting the push rod out to help with engagement. However this is only a ban-aid, eventually you will either run out of threads to turn or blow out the slave cylinder. If you're still able to move the pedal up to level with the brake pedal now, you didn't weld the pedal or welded at the wrong place. So far I have been under the impression that you fully understand the clutch pedal assembly issue but I'm beginning to have doubts from your follow up questions. Don't take this in the wrong way but read this carefully and see if it would clear up some of your confusions. Post back.

edit: forgot the link http://www.taboospeedshop.com/clutch_pedal_assembly.htm

 

[oldman]

When bleeding, I never paid attention to the position of the adjustment rod. If I leave just a few threads inside of the C-braket, it will be in a position where the pedal has free play and the clutch won't disengage. I should start bleeding like that?

Also, do you know what hose to put over the bleeder valve? Is there a certain size of vacuum line to use?

Take the socket with you to the store and find the smallest vacumm hose you can find but make sure it will go through the soccket you will be using. I used a 4mm hose.

 

[Turbo Girl]

The snap you're describing with the assembly out is exactly what a freeplay is. If there was no freeplay, There would be no snapping back and forth between low and hi, it would only have one position, the hi position.

I don't think I explained well enough. While off the car, prior to welding, the clutch pedal could snap all the way into the position that would make it on the floor if it were in the car.

It could also snap back to the position that would make it even with brake pedal if it were on the car. This was not free play. It pushed the clutch lever and c-bracket when it moved. If it moved at all, the lever and C-bracket moved too.

The spring attached to the clutch lever caused the snap.

You can't adjust the play out, you can compensate for the freeplay by adjusting the push rod out to help with engagement.

What I'm saying is that when I adjust the rod while the assembly is in the car, it DOES take the free play out.

Lets say I let my foot off of the clutch pedal with the adjustment rod in the middle of it's adjustability range. (By adjustment rod I mean the one behind the gas pedal that goes into the C-bracket on the clutch lever). The clutch pedal will come up and be an inch lower than the brake pedal. Now if I don't touch the clutch pedal, I just turn the adjustment rod clockwise (into the master cylinder) until it is hanging by a thread, then the clutch pedal will come up even with brake pedal.

So off the car, there is no free play. The spring snaps the clutch pedal all the way up where it would be even with brake pedal.

But when it's in the car, it depends on how the rod is adjusted. It's like the adjustment rod, when attached and not adjusted all the way, is preventing the clutch pedal from coming all the way up even with brake pedal. But I can then pull the clutch pedal by hand and get it even with brake pedal.

With the rod adjusted all the way, the clutch pedal comes even with the brake pedal on its own when released.

Also, when adjusted in a way that there is free play, the clutch won't disengage. When adjusted in a way that the clutch pedal comes even with the brake pedal when released, the clutch does disengage.

So my conclusion is that there is no free play in the clutch pedal assembly. The reason it doesn't come up even with brake (phantom free play) has something to do with the master cylinder.

Sorry if some of that seems redundant. I'm just trying to make it really clear what is happening.

 

[oldman]

Damn a phone call would have made this easier. Let me summarize what I'm trying to say. A brand new assembly or a properly welded assembly will not have freeplay period regardless what position the adjustment rod is at. The fact that you have to adjust the rod to change the position of the pedal tells you there's freeplay, even if you remove the rod completely the pedal should be leveled with the brake pedal without the rod holding it up.

You have achieved engagement for now by compensating for the continuous wearing of the assembly by adjusting the rod. A month later you adjust it a little more because the pedal continues to wear until you either run out of room or blows the cylinders so the process repeat itself only each time the wear on the assembly gets worst. I suspect you didn't really check to make sure it was level with the brake pedal when it was out of the car, you just assumed it was. If you had griped up the assembly in a vise to station it, you probably would found out the pedal could still be pulled up the same amount as if it was in the car. This is the point you weld the lever to the rod. I too was at this point, with the rod adjusted all the way and barely engaging right off the floor and grinding from time to time. By welding the assembly and bleeding it really well, I now engages at about 15% off the floor with 3 threads showing inside the C-bracket. BTW I only had about 1/2" of freeplay.

Hope this cleared it up for you.

 

[GTM]

...
The spring attached to the clutch lever caused the snap.
What I'm saying is that when I adjust the rod while the assembly is in the car, it DOES take the free play out.
...
Sorry if some of that seems redundant. I'm just trying to make it really clear what is happening.

The large spring which is attached to the pedal is considered an "over center" design. As you depress the pedal it will go over center and then add more pressure to the overall mechanical advantage. As you start to release the pressure plate will push against this until it gets close to the over center position and then the spring will return it to the correct position. It is important that the maximum pedal height be correctly adjusted and while the brake is a reference point it too can be incorrectly adjusted. You have switches on both which must perform their tasks so care must be used to ensure they are correct.

As part of that adjustment the master cylr must have freeplay which is set so the clevis pin aligns with the hole when the rod is adjusted with about 1/8" free play from it's maximum extended stop. The clutch pedal should be adjusted to meet those conditions.

These are generalities which most/all makers must use in their design, the 1/8" mentioned above may be more or less for a specific model but it will be close to this number but the freeplay at the master cylr must exist.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Turbo Girl]

Damn a phone call would have made this easier. Let me summarize what I'm trying to say. A brand new assembly or a properly welded assembly will not have freeplay period regardless what position the adjustment rod is at. The fact that you have to adjust the rod to change the position of the pedal tells you there's freeplay, even if you remove the rod completely the pedal should be leveled with the brake pedal without the rod holding it up.

You have achieved engagement for now by compensating for the continuous wearing of the assembly by adjusting the rod. A month later you adjust it a little more because the pedal continues to wear until you either run out of room or blows the cylinders so the process repeat itself only each time the wear on the assembly gets worst. I suspect you didn't really check to make sure it was level with the brake pedal when it was out of the car, you just assumed it was. If you had griped up the assembly in a vise to station it, you probably would found out the pedal could still be pulled up the same amount as if it was in the car. This is the point you weld the lever to the rod. I too was at this point, with the rod adjusted all the way and barely engaging right off the floor and grinding from time to time. By welding the assembly and bleeding it really well, I now engages at about 15% off the floor with 3 threads showing inside the C-bracket. BTW I only had about 1/2" of freeplay.

Hope this cleared it up for you.

Okay, I have one inconsistency with that.

You said: "even if you remove the rod completely the pedal should be leveled with the brake pedal without the rod holding it up"

If I remove the rod completely, the pedal does come all the way up and level with the brake pedal.

If I attach the rod, it keeps the pedal from coming up all the way. Like the rod doesn't want to come out of the master cylinder. That is why I have to make it so the C-bracket is at the very back end of the adjustment rod. The adjustment rod will only come back so much and the C-bracket has to be at that end to allow the pedal to come all the way up.

So what do you think of the fact that the clutch pedal comes all the way up when it's not connected to the rod, but won't when it's connected?

That is why is seems like it isn't in the assembly.

I did get another used assembly and it seems exactly like my original one. I'm going to retry the welding and hopefully that helps. I really don't want to take the original back out

 

[GTM]

Okay, I have one inconsistency with that.
...

I did get another used assembly and it seems exactly like my original one. I'm going to retry the welding and hopefully that helps. I really don't want to take the original back out

Hi TG:

Did you read and understand my post? The master cylr piston must be all the way back towards the clevis rod and C-bracket (a pet peeve of mine for it's a clevis, a clevis rod, and a clevis pin and I know what the book calls it). You then adjust the rod so it has about 1/8" freeplay when the clevis pin is inserted with the pedal at the proper height. Hope that makes sense.

I prefer to braze things like this for you can always melt the brazing (it's like soldering but needs a torch) and reposition the lever as needed. Welding is for the most part forever and you are stuck for the base metal will melt before the weld will. The shear strength on brazing is something like 70,000 psi, the lever is rated at probably 90,000 psi so it's more than enough to make it last a lifetime. A muffler shop can do it in 5 minutes while you wait.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Turbo Girl]

Hi TG:

Did you read and understand my post? The master cylr piston must be all the way back towards the clevis rod and C-bracket (a pet peeve of mine for it's a clevis, a clevis rod, and a clevis pin and I know what the book calls it). You then adjust the rod so it has about 1/8" freeplay when the clevis pin is inserted with the pedal at the proper height. Hope that makes sense.

I prefer to braze things like this for you can always melt the brazing (it's like soldering but needs a torch) and reposition the lever as needed. Welding is for the most part forever and you are stuck for the base metal will melt before the weld will. The shear strength on brazing is something like 70,000 psi, the lever is rated at probably 90,000 psi so it's more than enough to make it last a lifetime. A muffler shop can do it in 5 minutes while you wait.

Cheers,
GTM

I guess I don't understand your post. Let's start with the basics. The clevis rod is the rod used to make adjustments that screws into the C-bracket? How do I make sure the master cylinder piston is all the way back?

 

[GTM]

I guess I don't understand your post. Let's start with the basics. The clevis rod is the rod used to make adjustments that screws into the C-bracket? How do I make sure the master cylinder piston is all the way back?

You guys are going to have to take a number while I put out fires.

Yes, the clevis rod is threaded and goes into the welded nut on the clevis (C-bracket). The other end goes into the master cylinder. If you push on this rod (no clevis pin installed) it will move into the master cylinder just a slight amount if the piston is all the way back. If there is a lot of freeplay then there is a good possibility the piston is not all the way back. You can push on the slave cylinder push rod and force it all the way in until it stops then check the freeplay again. You can use the handle of a screwdriver and smack the master cylr which will help the piston return all the way back (home) and again check that there is free play.

With the pedal up (home) then adjust the clevis rod so you can put the clevis pin through the holes without loosing the freeplay in the master cylr. Anything else is wrong so make sure you know which way the lever has to be set on the shaft to get the freeplay before you braze it.

Understood?

Cheers,
GTM

 

[oldman]

Okay, I have one inconsistency with that.

You said: "even if you remove the rod completely the pedal should be leveled with the brake pedal without the rod holding it up"

If I remove the rod completely, the pedal does come all the way up and level with the brake pedal.

If I attach the rod, it keeps the pedal from coming up all the way. Like the rod doesn't want to come out of the master cylinder. That is why I have to make it so the C-bracket is at the very back end of the adjustment rod. The adjustment rod will only come back so much and the C-bracket has to be at that end to allow the pedal to come all the way up.

So what do you think of the fact that the clutch pedal comes all the way up when it's not connected to the rod, but won't when it's connected?

That is why is seems like it isn't in the assembly.

I did get another used assembly and it seems exactly like my original one. I'm going to retry the welding and hopefully that helps. I really don't want to take the original back out

You seem to have your head together so let's assume you're right that the assembly is ok, I would then suggest doing the bleeding thing we spoke about before you go and pull it again.

 

[GTM]

You seem to have your head together so let's assume you're right that the assembly is ok, I would then suggest doing the bleeding thing we spoke about before you go and pull it again.

Ok, I didn't want to get into the bleeding but if she still has to complete that part of her diagnosis/repair then I would suggest she open the bleeded and check the freeplay on the master cylr at the same time. Seals and pistons can get sticky and if that's the case with the Mcylr then while the bleeder is open she can rap on it a few times with the clevis pin out so she can establish the freeplay.

It would be helpful to have a cutaway of the Mcylr so she can see why it's important that the piston is all the way home so it can take in a charge of fluid and allow bubbles to escape back into the reservoir. There is little point in attempting to bleed a system when the intake port is covered and can't take in a full charge for then the slave can't get it's full travel either.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[kc92awd]

I had a similar problem

 

[kc92awd]

mine was the assembly. but i could move the pedal a little before it made the clutch lever move. so i just had it welded and it took out the free play. try and see if that's the case with yours. i am guessing not. you may want to try replacing the master cylinder if bleeding doesn't work.

 

[Turbo Girl]

I think it is possible that you could be talking about 2 different things GTM and OldMan.

I am pretty sure I grasp what Oldman is saying. By freeplay, Oldman means that either

1. The clutch pedal can move slightly without moving the lever, or the lever doesn't move as much as it should. This would require welding at the top, square hole of the lever.

This is definitely not my problem. I can not move the pedal without the lever moving. Also, if I push on the lever even a tiny bit, the pedal moves too. This was the case before welding, too. Before I had it welded, I was thinking it didn't seem to need it, but I did it anyway.

OR

2. The lever and pedal can move slightly without moving the clevis rod and braket, or they don't get pushed as far as they should. This would require welding the middle hole of the lever.

This I can't rule out completely. But, it doesn't seem that that could keep the pedal from returning to the position it normally would. I mean, if I disconnect the clevis rod from the bracket, the spring pushes the pedal up right where it needs to go. If I connect the rod, the spring can't push hard enough to overcome the resistance put on it by the master cylinder.


I think GTM is talking about freeplay of the clevis rod in the master cylinder. The clevis rod can move into the cylinder too much before it starts to release the clutch. Also the clevis rod is not being forced back far enough to allow the pedal to go all the way up.

This is what I believe the problem is. But I'm not sure exactly how to fix it.

With the pedal up (home) then adjust the clevis rod so you can put the clevis pin through the holes without loosing the freeplay in the master cylr. Anything else is wrong so make sure you know which way the lever has to be set on the shaft to get the freeplay before you braze it.

Sorry, I hate to make you walk me through this so much. When you say adjust the clevis rod this way, do you mean pull on it while it is connected to the the c-bracket, with the c-bracket not connected to the lever? And then connect it to the lever using the clevis pin when the hole in the bracket lines up with the hole in the lever?

In that case, I can achieve the same thing by attaching the c-bracket to the lever first, and then pulling up on the pedal. It doesn't help.

A question that may clear it up for me, is where are you suggesting I should braze?

 

[Turbo Girl]

I suspect you didn't really check to make sure it was level with the brake pedal when it was out of the car, you just assumed it was. If you had griped up the assembly in a vise to station it, you probably would found out the pedal could still be pulled up the same amount as if it was in the car.

I didn't read this carefully enough before. I think I can now rule out this problem completely.

I am sure that the clutch pedal could not be pulled up any further had it been gripped in a vise station. It was going up all the way. There is a switch that the pedal hits when it comes up all the way. (I think it is a switch. It is a tiny black pin that gets pushed in by a rubber part on the pedal when the pedal comes up high enough.)

On the car, with the everything attached, if I push in the clutch and then let it out, the pedal would/will not come up all the way to that switch. I can then pull the pedal the remaining amount to hit that switch and stop.

However, when the assembly was out of the car, the pedal was forced all the way up against the switch by the spring. It was in the exact position I was able to pull it up to while in the car. Even if I pushed the pedal down an inch, it would just be forced right back to the point where it pushed in the switch and stopped.

Now, I've discovered that when the assembly is in the car, if I detach the C-bracket or clevis rod so that the pedal is not working with the master cylinder, the pedal comes all the way up like it should.

So I could've avoided welding and removing the assembly simply by detaching the clevis rod from the C-bracket. I would've then seen the pedal pop up to where it is supposed to go. Damn. Oh, well, I wouldn't have realized at the time what that meant anyway.

So, now that we know it is the master cylinder keeping the clutch pedal, lever, c-bracket, and clevis pin all from returning "home", is that a bleeding problem?

 

[GTM]

...

Sorry, I hate to make you walk me through this so much. When you say adjust the clevis rod this way, do you mean pull on it while it is connected to the the c-bracket, with the c-bracket not connected to the lever? And then connect it to the lever using the clevis pin when the hole in the bracket lines up with the hole in the lever?

In that case, I can achieve the same thing by attaching the c-bracket to the lever first, and then pulling up on the pedal. It doesn't help.

A question that may clear it up for me, is where are you suggesting I should braze?

It's been a difficult night and I don't want to think that hard. I think the above first paragraph is correct.

You have 2 different items, the pedal assembly and the master cylinder complete with clevis assembly. Adjust the pedal so it is level with the brake if that is correct. With the clevis straddling the lever adjust the rod so you have that magic number I assigned of 1/8" freeplay and the pin will now drop through the holes without loosing the freeplay. Snug up the lock nub and check the operation. If it's good then set the lock nut and install cotterpin or retaining clip to keep the pin in place.

See how simple that was.

Now you say some ritualistic magic words pump the pedal 2-3 times and smile. If it doesn't work then bleed the system as Oldman outlined earlier.

This also is assuming the shaft and lever are not damaged. Now if it's been welded at the wrong angle and there are not enough threads on the clevis rod then that must be fixed.

Questions,
GTM

 

[Turbo Girl]

It's been a difficult night and I don't want to think that hard. I think the above first paragraph is correct.

You have 2 different items, the pedal assembly and the master cylinder complete with clevis assembly. Adjust the pedal so it is level with the brake if that is correct. With the clevis straddling the lever adjust the rod so you have that magic number I assigned of 1/8" freeplay and the pin will now drop through the holes without loosing the freeplay. Snug up the lock nub and check the operation. If it's good then set the lock nut and install cotterpin or retaining clip to keep the pin in place.

See how simple that was.

Now you say some ritualistic magic words pump the pedal 2-3 times and smile. If it doesn't work then bleed the system as Oldman outlined earlier.

This also is assuming the shaft and lever are not damaged. Now if it's been welded at the wrong angle and there are not enough threads on the clevis rod then that must be fixed.

Questions,
GTM

yeah, it doesn't seem that you got too much sleep Don't let me make you think too hard.

Okay, basically I have done all that. Everything looks good when it is together. The clutch pedal is up, I attach the clevis pin, the threads look good. Then when I push in the clutch it still doesn't come back up all the way again.

Soooo, I guess I am going to try some serious bleeding.

 

[GTM]

...

1) So I could've avoided welding and removing the assembly simply by detaching the clevis rod from the C-bracket.

2) I would've then seen the pedal pop up to where it is supposed to go. Damn. Oh, well, I wouldn't have realized at the time what that meant anyway.

3) So, now that we know it is the master cylinder keeping the clutch pedal, lever, c-bracket, and clevis pin all from returning "home", is that a bleeding problem?

No no no.

1) If the lever is loose on the shaft because it has worn an eleptical hole or rounded the shaft then that must be fixed. This is the culprit when everything else is functioning and properly adjusted yet you have too much pedal travel.

2) You must have the pedal all the way up so it is properly against the stop and the switch. without the c-bracket's influence.

3) No, it is not the master cylinder's fault unless you have not adjusted the push rod correctly.
.........................

...
The clutch pedal is up, I attach the clevis pin, the threads look good. Then when I push in the clutch it still doesn't come back up all the way again.

Soooo, I guess I am going to try some serious bleeding.

I'm afraid to ask... "the threads look good"??? If everything is right then there is never an issue with threads unless the lever was welded in the wrong position. Yes, if it does not come back to home then you must bleed until there are no bubbles. But you should also make sure you have that freeplay.

I'm fading fast, hopefully Oldman will be along in a few hours for he had sense enough to go to bed at midnight pacific time. Anyway, we will get it sorted out.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Turbo Girl]

What I meant by threads look good is that there are threads inside the C-bracket. sorry. I just meant I adjusted the rod so that it isn't hanging onto the bracket by just a thread or two.

What I meant by my previous post was that when I take the clevis rod out of the bracket the clutch pops up even with the brake pedal.

If it were a worn or miswelded assembly and I let off the clutch, it wouldn't come all the way up. Then if I unscrewed the adjustment rod from the c-bracket completely (as in, take it out of the c-bracket), the clutch pedal would just remain an inch too low.

But because the clutch pedal pops back up when I take out the clevis rod, it means that it is not worn or it is welded in the correct position. My eliptical hole was never rounded even the slightest bit. I really don't think the welding was even necessary.

But you should get some sleep while I go bleed. Just check back later and see if the bleeding worked or not!

 

[Turbo Girl]

No no no.

1) If the lever is loose on the shaft because it has worn an eleptical hole or rounded the shaft then that must be fixed. This is the culprit when everything else is functioning and properly adjusted yet you have too much pedal travel.

2) You must have the pedal all the way up so it is properly against the stop and the switch. without the c-bracket's influence.

3) No, it is not the master cylinder's fault unless you have not adjusted the push rod correctly.

1) Like I said, the eleptical hole is not/never was worn. I'm not sure everything else is functioning properly

2)That is what I'm saying, if I pull either the clevis rod from the c-bracket, or the c-bracket from the lever, the pedal pops up against the stop. Therefore, if I would've tried that initially, I would've seen the pedal assembly wasn't worn.

The c-bracket's influence is actually what is keeping the pedal from going all the way up like it wants to.

3) For some reason the master cylinder/clevis rod is resisting coming back out enough that the spring can't force the clutch pedal all the way up when they're connected. Hopefully it is a bleeding issue.