2G: Pushing Coolant

psychbiker1966 · 06-27-2012, 01:06 PM

I am having a problem with coolant being pushed out into my overflow bottle and not returning when it cools. I have done the sniffer test and had it confirmed again by a shop no Hydro Carbons in the coolant. I have hooked up both my fans to come on together. The Temp gauge stays in the middle,No white smoke,car is running well. The rad cap is 3 months old as is the thermostat.I have good compression numbers. HG was done in February so I am tempted to retorque my ARPs if its leaking or something. I want to rule out my water pump or cooling system before I mess with the bolts. The car will push coolant into its overflow bottle and each day I have to transfer a full bottle back into the system myself. When I start it with the cap off I get frothy bubbling as if I'm getting air in the system. I have a video which won't load but I have a few pictures. The frothing gets worse so you don't see the green fluid if I run it longer. I can rev it up and it will spill over a little bit.. Can a water pump cause this or do I have a leaking headgasket (With no Hydrocarbons)??

alex209 · 06-27-2012, 01:12 PM

I'm having same problem its a leaky HG

210 dsm · 06-27-2012, 01:26 PM

Could it have too much coolant in it?
But the bubbles tell me possible headgasket. Let us know if you figure it out

psychbiker1966 · 06-27-2012, 01:40 PM

Should I try to Retorque the ARPs, to see if it might fix it??

My1GLaser · 06-27-2012, 01:48 PM

What HG are you using? Was the head surfaced? The block? What did you torque the bolts to? Did you re-torque them after a few heat cycles?

psychbiker1966 · 06-27-2012, 02:43 PM

Cometic HG, a shop did the work and I don't know if they re-torqued it more than once (if they even did that) ..I know they didn't resurface the head or block they said it didn't need it since it hadn't failed after overheating...

BrokenTsi · 06-27-2012, 02:53 PM

....most likely a leaky head gasket. I have seen it not show up in a compression test. Either way, you most likely need to pull the head to have a look. My cometic did the same thing to me. It passed a coolant pressure test, compression test, and a leak down test. I pulled the head to find that the head gasket was torched in 4 places.

Demon33 · 06-27-2012, 02:57 PM

I once had the same problem and it turned out to be the head gasket. It took a while to find the problem, until I discovered that the car wouldn't push coolant at any boost below 18psi, but once I got over that, it pushed the coolant every single time. My car was also prone to overheating. I replaced the head gasket and have not had a problem since.

The bubbles and the fact that the coolant doesn't go back into the engine suggests that there is a leak in the coolant system (head gasket) which prevents a vacuum from forming when the engine cools off to draw the coolant back into engine. Try retorquing your head bolts as a first step and see if it still pushes coolant.

BogusSVO · 06-27-2012, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychbiker1966

Cometic HG, a shop did the work and I don't know if they re-torqued it more than once (if they even did that) ..I know they didn't resurface the head or block they said it didn't need it since it hadn't failed after overheating...

Lets see whats going here in your statement....

1) cometic HG= MLS=needs a perfect sealing surface, both block and head.

2) The shop that did the install "said" it didnt need it.. ok.. but I do not know of many repair shops that have a machinist stright edge to properly check for warp.

3) Most all alum heads warp to some point when over heated. Most composite gaskets can take up to .003 warp and still seal, a MLS may take no more than half that so .0015

A sheet of notebook paper is appox .003 thick

So it is sounding more and more like a HG.

Some reading for you....

How to check a head for warp

How to clean a Head Gasket Surface

How to Surface a 4G63T Cylinder head for a MLS head gasket

How to deck a 4G63 Cast Iron Block

Head gasket Repair- How to clean the block deck with the pistons installed.

2slow4now · 06-27-2012, 03:26 PM

I had a small crack in the exhaust runner coming out of the combustion camber in the division wall between the two valves just recently. I thought it was the head gasket but it didn't show on compression checks so I thought it might be lifting. I ended up just pulling the head and having it pressure checked at a local machine shop because the head gasket looked perfect.
This one was kind of odd but it too was fine on a compression test and it didn't even bubble while the engine idled. It would push exhaust to the coolant while in boost and my coolant temp would come up during boost.

Most likely a head gasket but you never know till you start looking/removing.

red_devil · 06-27-2012, 03:52 PM

It could still be the HG even though it passed a hydro carbon test? Thought that was the best way to check.

chanley talon · 06-27-2012, 04:11 PM

Just get ya a head gasket and resurface the head. I have same issue but i have no bubbling im pretty sure i just pushed to much boost and ran a little lean and my cometic did not like it.

Dvcaptainm · 06-27-2012, 07:22 PM

money says the head was warped and the tech was just eyeballing it, its always worth the extra few bucks to make sure things like that are done properly

rastmp · 06-28-2012, 05:47 AM

I had the same issue on my 92 talon and few days later the headgasket blew up .......Take the head off and check if You can

RayBan GST · 06-28-2012, 06:27 AM

Hello there,

exact same problem happened to me and it took me few steps to rule out what it was . mine was only a water neck ( it was wraped)

do the following :

1- double the seal ( rubber) on your radiator cap ( use another seal from another old cap and double it ) make sure the cap is sealing properly with the neck now after doubling the rubber. ( its not an easy fit to double the rubber , just force it in and it will enter nicely)

if your problem is fixed by doubling the cap rubber and there is no more coolant pushed to the overflow bottle , just simply change the water neck , buy new one and change it .

exact same symptoms you described happened to me and it was as simple as a water neck not sealing with the cap. but i have tried everything before i reached to the exact problem , i tried all the tests and even changed so many caps.

good luck

psychbiker1966 · 06-28-2012, 02:08 PM

That's 10 people that think its a Head gasket issue and only 2 that think it could be a water neck or something else.. I guess the water neck with double the rubber might be worth a shot, and tightening the bolts after that..I have a feeling I'm gonna end up taking it all apart and getting the head resurfaced.. I think I won't be using a cometic again if I go that route.

My1GLaser · 06-28-2012, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psychbiker1966

I have a feeling I'm gonna end up taking it all apart and getting the head resurfaced.. I think I won't be using a cometic again if I go that route.

It wouldn't hurt to re-torque your head studs and see if that helps. It probably won't but there's not much to lose. I tried that before and it never fixed the problem. My head had warped .002" from lifting under high boost and pushed coolant even after I put in L19s. Had to pull it a couple months ago.

If you can't get the block surfaced then stay away from an MLS.

boost97gst · 06-28-2012, 04:22 PM

^^^^
exactly. To use a MLS hg, you HAVE to have a decked block and head.

clipto · 06-28-2012, 04:35 PM

You should reroute your o2 sensor wire off the hot ass thermostat housing so it doesn't get eaten up.

NHerron · 06-28-2012, 04:53 PM

Yes but there is another problem, why isn't coolant returning back into the system? If a leak doesn't show up in a cylinder leak down test it sure isn't going to cause coolant not to retract properly back into the system after cool down. With "path of least resistance" in mind, and engine cooling down, the coolant will be drawn back in long before it relieves itself via the HG leak

I would hook up a coolant pressure tester and if that holds pressure, then only thing left is the radiator cap.

*This is all ASSuming you aren't actually loosing coolant, that it's just not retracting from the overflow

psychbiker1966 · 06-28-2012, 05:14 PM

Will a regular socket /extension combo work to Re-torque these ARPs??What size is the nut on these ARPs? They seem to be 14mm... Don't want to get it wrong can someone confirm??

13mm did the trick!! I was tempted to torgue to 120 with all that oil but instead snugged them up to 95..

My1GLaser · 06-28-2012, 07:13 PM

how much did they move?

MHuddy1213 · 06-28-2012, 07:24 PM

when the arp were installed was molly used?

boost97gst · 06-28-2012, 07:28 PM

With a MLS, decked block and head, i have had 2 machinist (using moly lube of course) say that they do NOT need to be retorqued. Food for thought.

MHuddy1213 · 06-28-2012, 07:36 PM

if moly lube was not used on instillation then they will not acctually meet the full torque specs required using just oil will not be suffiecient enough and when you tighten them down the friction will make a torque wrench will read that it is torqued down but its not all the way molly will acctually make it to where when you tighten it down itll acctually increase the torque value to the required amount there is a thread on this too for more info

NHerron · 06-28-2012, 07:41 PM

Boost97gst^That seems to be my initial thoughts too. It's possible for things to loosen up on [thick] composite gaskets such as head gaskets and thats due to the heat cycles and eventually the gasket gives in and compresses more.

When I built this engine I torqued the head to 90ft/lbs with a composite head gasket. After a few hundred miles I marked each of the nuts with a marker. Then one at a time, loosened each nut and retorqued to 90ft/lbs. They all moved a 1/4 turn past the oringinal mark.

psychbiker1966 · 06-28-2012, 08:11 PM

Bolt 1 moved the most a little more than a quarter turn ,some of the bolts did not move but about 6 of them moved 45 degrees or so. I recently fixed a rear balance shaft that had been out of phase (same crappy shop) .I think the vibrations may have caused some bolts to loosen. On start up I still have some bubbles... DRAG.. Will drive and see if it still pushes coolant.

boost97gst · 06-28-2012, 08:11 PM

Yessssit, composites ive heard NEED retorqued, mls's dont(again, with moly lube properly applied on initial installation of course). Just kind of hear say, im not a machinist, just asked my machinist and another reputable one nearby.

OP: It really does sound like a hg. Exhaust gases entering coolant and boiling it. This still doesnt explain why your refill bottle isnt siphoning back iunto the system though? Im not 100% on that. Havent read entire thread but would suggest checking your overflow pickup tube, the tube running from housing to the overflow, and of course the cap itself. Those are all logical failure points. I hate hearing about fellow dsmers engine woes anymore. They are so frequent. Even running my fully built engine w 1200 miles i still get nervous cranking the boost up lol. These damn things are just unreliable... Flame away but its true. GL to you, hope its nothing serious bud.

MHuddy1213 · 06-28-2012, 08:12 PM

what are you torquing them to?

psychbiker1966 · 06-29-2012, 01:59 PM

Good news ,so far I tried what RayBan GST suggested and found my old rad cap. It was marked 13 lbs and the spring looked bigger than the new one I was using. I took the rubber off my new cap and added it on the bottom of the old cap and went for a leisurely drive to work. I checked the overflow when I got there and the level had not changed! I just drove home and this time I built boost up to 15 lbs with moderate revs and again I checked it..No change. I hope I have got this problem licked... Next up heavy throttle!!