Resolved Offering $100 REWARD for solving my no start

[nytescion]

I'm now willing to paypal 100 bucks to whomever can figure out this no start problem I've been having. Issue I'm having is the car is very hard to start after it sits for a little bit. The longer I let it sit the harder it is to start. Even after cutting it off and trying to start it right back up takes 1 long (10 sec) crank. so far I've tried

-2 BRAND new coolant temp sensors (verified correct operation)
-BLT 30 40 and 50 psi (only running 30 psi)
-Spraying starter fluid into the the throttle body port for my boost gauge car starts right up first time
-ECU has no leaky caps, burns, fish smells or any funny business
-All battery connects are clean and tight (wrench or pliers)
-Bigger brand new battery (800cc amps)
-Fuel pump rewired to run in the ACC key position (after letting car sit with pump running still no start)
-Immediate fuel pressure when pump is activated
-Correct cam timing verified
*****I forgot to mention that if i enrichen my mainscale value on my maft and it does seem to help to get the car started BUT i have to adjust it back down cause I'll be running quite rich at idle if i don't.

One more thing i can think of is. This motor is out of my second talon tsi awd which was a 92. I did not have these problems with my 92. This DSM i have now is a 90. So only the things that were needed to change to work with a 90 ecu were changed. cam sensor, coil, throttle body thermo housing etc.

 

[Rob10_99]

Bad stock FPR? swap one out or check for correct fuel pressure if you can.

 

[1twistdtalon]

injectors?? shot in the dark. good luck

 

[GooeyGus]

Does ambient air temperature make a difference?

Are you still using the stock fuel pressure solenoid on the firewall? I've heard that if one has bypassed the fuel pressure solenoid, it can cause a longer cranking time.

Does the car run great once it's running? No other issues?

 

[JusMX141]

-Spraying starter fluid into the the throttle body port for my boost gauge car starts right up first time.

It's obviously a fuel delivery problem.

If there are any leaks in the fuel line between the pump and the engine- including inside the tank, this will allow fuel pressure to bleed off entirely. The pump will have to refill and re-pressurize the line entirely each time.


I had a hard-starting problem with a '92 non-turbo Talon before, too. The big issue in that case turned out to be the previous owner had used tons of silicone to seal the lock ring where the pump sealed against the tank. The silicone had oozed into the tank, and the gasoline dissolved it....the silicone literally became a gelatin and was suspended within the gasoline.

I dropped the tank, and the strainer was about 95% clogged with silicone. I changed the strainer, and dumped the entire content of the tank through a paint strainer funnel and got the gelatin out of the fuel, and the problem went away.

 

[TurboDSM90]

Check/change injectors
Change fuel filter
Check/change spark plugs

The 90 TB might have a sticking ISC as well.

 

[nytescion]

Bad stock FPR? swap one out or check for correct fuel pressure if you can.

I don't have a stock FPR. Using an aeromotive FPR. base pressure is set at 38-39psi.

Does ambient air temperature make a difference?

Are you still using the stock fuel pressure solenoid on the firewall? I've heard that if one has bypassed the fuel pressure solenoid, it can cause a longer cranking time.

Does the car run great once it's running? No other issues?

Kinda but i can't be too sure. today was rather warm ###### 50's it did seem to start sooner. But i did also just change out the 1st new Temp sensor. I could see that bypassing the solenoid would cause longer starts but i would think that that is because the fuel pump isn't running to build any fuel pressure. thats why I rewired the fuel pump to run when key get to acc

It's obviously a fuel delivery problem.

If there are any leaks in the fuel line between the pump and the engine- including inside the tank, this will allow fuel pressure to bleed off entirely. The pump will have to refill and re-pressurize the line entirely each time.


I had a hard-starting problem with a '92 non-turbo Talon before, too. The big issue in that case turned out to be the previous owner had used tons of silicone to seal the lock ring where the pump sealed against the tank. The silicone had oozed into the tank, and the gasoline dissolved it....the silicone literally became a gelatin and was suspended within the gasoline.

I dropped the tank, and the strainer was about 95% clogged with silicone. I changed the strainer, and dumped the entire content of the tank through a paint strainer funnel and got the gelatin out of the fuel, and the problem went away.

I opened up the tank thinking that something was wrong with the oring on the fuel pump. the previous owner used to sets of oring and plastic sleeves and didn't have the cap in there at all. I put one sleeve on then oring but still doesn't have a cap cause there wasn't one there for me to use. You think i should try to find one and put it in and see what happens or just get all new fuel pump and install kit?

Check/change injectors
Change fuel filter
Check/change spark plugs

The 90 TB might have a sticking ISC as well.

Injectors/spark plug wires are new. I thought about the fuel filter but wouldn't this cause the car to also run funny. Even more at high boost/rpm.

 

[blackrosenova40]

Im about 99 percent sure its your fuel check valve above your fuel pump. Open the hatch, pull the fuel pump cover, you will see a small canister, im pretty sure its usually blue. Take it out and see if air will only go through it one way.

You can see it in the pic,

'

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[95redturboawd]

Are you sure your battery connections are good? Have you tested with a voltmeter?

 

[nytescion]

Im about 99 percent sure its your fuel check valve above your fuel pump. Open the hatch, pull the fuel pump cover, you will see a small canister, im pretty sure its usually blue. Take it out and see if air will only go through it one way.

I pulled this out when i was checking the fuel pump install from the previous owner. I think i remember it only flowing in one direction and not the other (it might have leaked the other way very slightly if anything but nothing that i could notice on my end when blowing on it. which way should the closed side be facing? toward the front of the car or toward the rear?

 

[JusMX141]

I opened up the tank thinking that something was wrong with the oring on the fuel pump. the previous owner used to sets of oring and plastic sleeves and didn't have the cap in there at all. I put one sleeve on then oring but still doesn't have a cap cause there wasn't one there for me to use. You think i should try to find one and put it in and see what happens or just get all new fuel pump and install kit?

You need to make sure that junction is sealed 100%. It could be leaking like hell while the pump is running and you'd never see it because the fuel would just be spraying back into the tank.

If the car starts right back up after it's just been running but cranks very long after it's been sitting, you're losing line pressure somewhere. Either the connection directly above the pump is leaking, or the pump itself isn't holding a prime.

 

[mike_tsi]

I think it may be the fuel filter or the injectors. Possibly the cas also.

 

[nytescion]

Are you sure your battery connections are good? Have you tested with a voltmeter?

I'm 200% sure the connections are good. I'm turning the motors by the starter at almost 400rpm sometimes it even smacks 500. everything is tight the connections on the battery can not be moved with a hammer the butterfly nuts have been tightened using pliers. all connections are gold plated.

I think it may be the fuel filter or the injectors. Possibly the cas also.

just purchased new fuel filter via internet. I'm looking up how to check the CAS now. I don't think it's the injectors they were used in this very same motor in the last car and had no issues. But i will check them also isn't there suppose to be a certain resistance for the injectors? I'll try to find something...

 

[robbo185]

when it runs how does it run? Also when you put in the motor was the afpr already on the other car? I know when I installed mine it takes awhile to crank and then start unless I have the fuel pump on with dsmlink and i let it sit for 10 seconds before starting.

 

[blackrosenova40]

What you need to do is hook up a fuel pressure gauge and watch it immedialty after you shut it off.

 

[nytescion]

You need to make sure that junction is sealed 100%. It could be leaking like hell while the pump is running and you'd never see it because the fuel would just be spraying back into the tank.

If the car starts right back up after it's just been running but cranks very long after it's been sitting, you're losing line pressure somewhere. Either the connection directly above the pump is leaking, or the pump itself isn't holding a prime.

needs to crank for like 10 secs after it's been running to start. After it sits for a while it needs more and more. Only way i can think of fixing that possible leak above the pump or the pump itself is buying a newpump with an install kit and try installing it with using the new stuff. I am unsure how old this fuel pump is also.

What you need to do is hook up a fuel pressure gauge and watch it immedialty after you shut it off.

I've done this the pressure stays the same. after about an hour it has dropped about 10psi or so. I have two gauges one ontop of the fuel filter and one on the regulator. Both read the same thing at the same times.

 

[400hp93talon]

You need to make sure that junction is sealed 100%. It could be leaking like hell while the pump is running and you'd never see it because the fuel would just be spraying back into the tank.

If the car starts right back up after it's just been running but cranks very long after it's been sitting, you're losing line pressure somewhere. Either the connection directly above the pump is leaking, or the pump itself isn't holding a prime.

I agree

Have you ever looked for gas leaking on the gound right after you shut it off? This sounds crazy but maybe the signal strength for the injectors isnt strong enough at first which would cause to them to not spit fuel or not enough at first, you need to test how stong the signal is when your cranking it over and then when its running and see if its different. Just throwin ideas out there......Why do people think battery connections are always the problem when its clearly not???

 

[nytescion]

when it runs how does it run? Also when you put in the motor was the afpr already on the other car? I know when I installed mine it takes awhile to crank and then start unless I have the fuel pump on with dsmlink and i let it sit for 10 seconds before starting.

car runs fine while it's running. before i put this motor in the 90 all i had was a shell. EVERYTHING came out of the 92 and into the 90 except for the sensors that wouldn't plug into the 90's harness and the fuel pump. As i said my fuel pump runs in Accessory. i can leave the fuel pump on for 30 mins and come out and still have to go through all the attempts to start it.

I agree

Have you ever looked for gas leaking on the gound right after you shut it off? This sounds crazy but maybe the signal strength for the injectors isnt strong enough at first which would cause to them to not spit fuel or not enough at first, you need to test how stong the signal is when your cranking it over and then when its running and see if its different. Just throwin ideas out there......Why do people think battery connections are always the problem when its clearly not???

no leaks of fuel at all. and no fuel smells. the signal strength could be a possibility although I've never heard of it before. I guess i should hook up a DVOM to each plug and start it and note the amps/volt on each one.



*****I forgot to mention that if i enrichen my mainscale value on my maft and it does seem to help to get the car started BUT i have to adjust it back down cause I'll be running quite rich at idle if i don't.

 

[jm1080]

It is the fuel pump, you need the brown cap otherwise it will leak back down through the o-rings. Buy the brown cap from mitsu and put o-ring then brown cap, then install. Car will be good again

 

[BrokenTsi]

Is the CAS 180 degree off? Put #1 pistons TDC, pull the CAS, line up the notch with the mark on the CAS, and reinstall. While you're at it, set your base timing to 5 BTDC with a timing light.

 

[nytescion]

Is the CAS 180 degree off? Put #1 pistons TDC, pull the CAS, line up the notch with the mark on the CAS, and reinstall. While you're at it, set your base timing to 5 BTDC with a timing light.

Do you mean is the CAS upside down? I believe it wouldn't bolt up like that. My logger (evoscan) reads that it is at 5* BTDC already.

It is the fuel pump, you need the brown cap otherwise it will leak back down through the o-rings. Buy the brown cap from mitsu and put o-ring then brown cap, then install. Car will be good again

Can someone look up the number for the oring and cap using caps? for some reason i can't get mine to work. My dealer is kinda retarded if you don't do their work for them....

 

[jm1080]

Call JNZtuning, they will provide you part number, I buy all my oem parts from them and just ask for the brown cap for fuel pump and they should know, I will be purchasing one too as mine is cracked.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Screw that brown cap and o-ring. Cut that bell/flare off the end of the tube. Connect the tube and the outlet of the fuel pump with -6 fuel line and fuel injection hose clamps. Eliminate a possible source of losing fuel pressure.

 

[jm1080]

Screw that brown cap and o-ring. Cut that bell/flare off the end of the tube. Connect the tube and the outlet of the fuel pump with -6 fuel line and fuel injection hose clamps. Eliminate a possible source of losing fuel pressure.

Wow thats a good idea! I have a supra pump and believe mine could be leaking due to the brown cap and slant, you have pics of that?

 

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

Go fix your car and pay jusmx141 his reward. He nailed it from the start. You have a pressure bleed inside the pump assembly. Sounds like you already knew your problem.

NONE of the other suggestions are capable of causing your particular problem.

My logger (evoscan) reads that it is at 5* BTDC already.

timing is not a measured value, it is not read. It is a commanded value pulled from the ECU and will not show the effect of an improperly adjusted sensor. You also must have the logger unplugged when setting base timing.