Finishing up 6 Bolt - Won't start

[Fullthrottle7]

I just completed my 6 bolt swap on a 95 tsi using a 91 block and kept my 95 head. The engine is in. All hoses and electrical connections are hooked up. New battery. The damn thing will not start. We cranked the engine for about 15 seconds twice to prime the oil with the fuel pump and plugs unplugged then hooked them both back up and tried to fire the engine and we're getting nothing. Swapped plugs 1 and 4 with 2 and 3 like on the Magnus site and still got nothing. We pulled a plug and there is fuel on it. Anyone know the exact order my spark plugs should be in or have any other ideas of what to check?? I thought maybe the CAS was out of phase or something, but wouldn't the car not even turn over if that was the case?? Any help is appreciated.

 

[blackGSX2g]

Did you line the CAS up correctly when you put it on?

It needs to be installed when your #1 cyl is at TDC and the sensor needs to look like this

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176124&highlight=cas+install

Turning your motor over is a mechanical feat, if you cranked the starter your motor would turn over regardless of if you even have a CAS, spark plugs, injectors, etc installed.

 

[Fullthrottle7]

I'll go check it again, but I'm pretty sure I lined it up correctly. I know for a fact that I lined up the timing mark on the CAS itself, but i'm not 100% positive I had the engine at TDC when I put it in because we had been moving the timing around a bit before putting on the belt. I'll go see about that right now. Any ideas on the firing order though? I know Magnus says to swap the plugs but then it says order is not important?? I don't understand how the order isn't important so I must be doing that wrong as well. Right now, the plugs are in their stock order of 4-1-2-3. Let me know if you know the order they should be in.

 

[blackGSX2g]

Basically think of your coil pack as 2 coils, 1&4 and 2&3. DSMs use a 'waste spark' system where it will fire both 1&4 at the same time and then it will fire 2&3, so you really have to plugs firing at the same time. Order does matter, but as long as you switch the wires that went to coil 1&4 with 2&3, it will work fine.

In short, stock 2g firing order is 4-1-2-3 written on the coil itself

so you can use 2-3-4-1
3-2-4-1
3-2-1-4
2-3-1-4

 

[Fullthrottle7]

OK, thanks for that. I just checked the CAS and it seems to be put in correctly, but I may still be wrong. Can the cam marks be lined up correctly and still be wrong for the CAS?? I know that you have to rotate the engine 6 times to get it properly set at TDC because of the oil pump ratio, but as long as the cam timing marks are lined up for TDC (they're the only marks I can see because of the timing cover) and the CAS is lined up for TDC, I should be fine, right??

 

[blackGSX2g]

You didn't eliminate the balance shafts when you swapped motors?

As long as your cam timing marks are lined up in the #1 TDC position (cam dowels at 12 oclock) you should be fine to put your CAS in.

Are you for sure getting spark? When you go to turn your motor over does it sound like it is trying to start, or does it just crank?

 

[Fullthrottle7]

It just cranks and no, I didn't remove the balance shafts. The guy that was building my engine really didn't feel comfortable doing that and he is giving me a 3 year warranty, which would have been voided if I made him do the removal, so they're still in. As far as the dowel pins go, I am kinda worried about that. If you couldn't already tell, I don't know much about the inner workings of engines, so a couple of my buddies have been helping me with this. I got all the timing stuff off of Vfaq, but when setting the timing, the exhaust dowel pin was down and the intake was up. I told my buddies they were supposed to both be straight up, but by the timing marks and cam lobes they said otherwise. By that I mean there were two marks on the exhaust cam and only one on the intake cam, so they lined them up with the mark on the exhaust cam that made the lobes on the two cams opposite. That made sense to me since the intake and exhaust should open at opposite times (i think) so we set the timing like that. So assuming that is correct, the CAS is in the right way and I am out of ideas on why my POS will not start.

 

[Fullthrottle7]

BTW, we are sure we are getting spark because I shocked the hell out of my buddy when he was holding one of the plugs, .

 

[blackGSX2g]

As far as the dowel pins go, I am kinda worried about that. If you couldn't already tell, I don't know much about the inner workings of engines, so a couple of my buddies have been helping me with this. I got all the timing stuff off of Vfaq, but when setting the timing, the exhaust dowel pin was down and the intake was up. I told my buddies they were supposed to both be straight up, but by the timing marks and cam lobes they said otherwise. By that I mean there were two marks on the exhaust cam and only one on the intake cam, so they lined them up with the mark on the exhaust cam that made the lobes on the two cams opposite.

This is your problem. Your stock cams and stock gears are only made to go in one way, and that is with the dowel pin pointing up. There should be 2 marks on each cam gear, one on the inside of each and one on the outside.

What you are telling me is that you put your exhaust cam 180* off spec, and this is why your car will not start. Unfortunately, this kind of misalignment will bend your exhaust valves and you are probably not getting any compression in any cylinder. Grab a compression tester and check, but I can almost guarantee your head will have to come off and have 8 exhaust valves re-installed.

 

[Fullthrottle7]

I didn't actually touch the head. Took it off my running 7 bolt and then it was bolted down by the machinist to the 6 bolt block he rebuilt. The intake cam only has one timing mark, which is right on a tooth. The exhaust cam has two marks, one right on a tooth, which is the one we used to set timing, and another on the opposite side, which is in a dip between two teeth. I'm pretty sure we are getting compression because it gets hard to crank in certain spots and at one point during our attempts to get it started, a flame shot out of the first cylinder while cranking with the plug out to check for spark. I don't know if that is compression or just friction?? Are you saying that the cam lobes should all be the same direction as the opposite cam?? Like at TDC, should the intake and exhaust valves both be open? Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but I didn't have enough money to get this thing to a shop, so we've been slowly working on it for the last few weeks.

 

[blackGSX2g]

Well the 4 timing marks are cast into the cam gear itself. Try cleaning them off and trying to find them. If you still can't, you could go get some from a junkyard/eBay/classifieds that have very visable timing marks, but I have yet to see a cam gear that doesn't have all the marks on them.

When you are setting timing, don't pay attention to the lobes on the cams, just go by the cam dowels and the timing marks.

That being said, when cyl #1 is at TDC, none of the valves should be completely open.

 

[blackGSX2g]

This is what your cams should look like, no matter what.

The picture is of 1g cams, but the dowel pins and timing marks should be the same.

 

[Fullthrottle7]

Oh man. Well, thanks for the help, I guess I'm probably screwed at this point if that is the case. I don't understand why my marks would be so messed up, though, since we took the head off my car when it was running great besides starting to crankwalk. I just checked the cams again and am positive there is no second timing mark on my intake cam.

 

[blackGSX2g]

Well its not the end of the world. You can try getting a different set of 4g63 cam gears (either turbo or N/T 4g63 gears will work) and lining it up again to do a compression test, but I would assume the worst.

If you are comfortable pulling the head, do that and take it back to the shop to have whatever valves you bent swapped out. If they are stock valves, they are about 6-8 bucks each new, or if you can find someone else who has a complete head you can just swap them directly.

If you have a local junkyard, try and see what they have out there. Keep in mind if you are going with a 1g head, the only differences between the N/T and turbo 4g63 heads are the cams, so you can swap in the cams you have now and be all set.

 

[Fullthrottle7]

Jeesus, this is the biggest pain in the ass ever. I guess I'll have to pull the head and go get those valves put in. I found out why the intake cam is different, tho. I have a 95 so the plates for the cam sensor are right on the back of it. Still don't know why there isn't a second timing mark, but the dowel pins are the same. Whatever, looks like I'm screwed. Here goes more money into fixing this damn thing.

 

[blackGSX2g]

It'll be worth it when its done. I got rid of my 2g cam gears when I sold the 2g head so I've never used those. It might be easier for you next time to get a set of 1g gears since you won't be using the cam sensor plate on your 2g anymore.