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14b max horsepower

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tstkl

15+ Year Contributor
3,881
64
Feb 10, 2005
SoCal, California
im looking to do some minor modifications to my 1g turbo awd talon and was wondering what the maximum horsepower (estimations of corse) of my engine would be without any pistons, rods, crankshaft, turbo, intercooler core, or fuel upgrades,... and also without all those except fuel upgrades,...i was thinking about hotwiring my fuel pump either way, and was wondering about what numbers i would be putting down with a 3 inch turbo back, exaust manifold and o2 housing, intake pipe, upper and lower intercooler piping, air filter, maf and maft, and a manual boostcontroller...and what psi that fuel system/turbo could support...any thoughts would be helpfull,...along with cfm and other info about the 14b(flow maps?)
 
Well without upgrading your fuel with those mods you will be stuck with a pretty harsh factory fuel cut. the exact numbers of that turbo, im not sure but your lookin around 320hp. Though DSMmotorsports has their Talon running a stock 14b and its almost in the 10's. Though that car is fine tuned and stripped.
 
thanks, i was thinking somewhere over 300 crank but didnt want to say it, any idea of what psi would be the maximum for a 14b on the stock fuel system hot wired?

edit: did some calculations, and it seems that if you assume a 20% oxygen level, a 500 ml cylinder size, and that your injectors can run at 450cc, that with an air fuel ratio of 14 to 1 (a little lean, but i can get better spark plugs and ingnition parts) 22psi is possible for the stock fuel injectors, can the 14b run at 22 psi, can the fuel pump support 450cc injectors well, and has anyone done this?
 
im sure someone else was gonna post it

first off...its rewired not hotwired..you are not stealing your fuel system

secondly i believe you are going to get run out of fuel around 16-17psi on your stock fuel system
i drive a 2g so correct me if im wrong
 
sorry rewired, a 2g should have the same fuel system, shouldnt be too different, unless somehow the t25 is limiting it? heres my calculations (yes i know they are basic)

(injector size x air fuel ratio x atmospheric oxygen percentage) / displacement = pressure ratio

(450cc x 14 x 20/100) / 500cc = (xpsi +14.7psi)/14.7psi

[(450x14)/5]/500=(x+14.7)/14.7

1260/500=(x+14.7)/14.7

7350+500x=18522

500x=11172

x=22.344psi

assuming the fuel pump can support that...

edit: added original equation, and equation with an air fuel ratio of 12 yeilds a 17.052 psi answer
 
tstkl said:
, can the fuel pump support 450cc injectors well

i dont see why the stock fuel pump couldnt handle the 450cc injectors considering that they are factory on a 1g turbo manual engine.
 
my thinking exactly, but who knows, maybe the car wasnt designed to have that much air in the cylinders at a given time and they just made it strong enough for the stock performance..
 
If you want to turn up the boost on the 14b past 12-14psi, you will need an upgraded fuel pump. Infact with an upgraded exhaust you will have a hard time keeping the boost from jumping up past that even with an mbc. This is the only real problem in your equation. If your 14b is in good shape, you will be extremely lean past 14psi. I know because I have done this on my 91gst.

Also guy is correct about the fuel cut. You will have a hard time getting up to 300hp without hitting fuel cut so you would either have to hack your maf of get some sort of device to eliminate fuel cut i.e hks fcd or an afc.

My recommendation to you is to add a 255lph fp and maybe a 2g maf to your mods.
 
i ran a couple 13.2's consitant low 13.'s with only a 190 fuel pump and a 2100 and a 3 dollar mbc and afc and a turbo back with a test pipe running 20 psi with a cracked stock 1g exhast mani and boost leaks every thing else stock with a 140,000 mile car just leaned it out under the high side till about 3grand and fatten it up with 116 octane in her... :thumb: oh and bad street tires ( auto crosses eat those up) so any thing is possiable this year it's getting the make over treatment 18g 550's nos home made front mount and eprom tuning 2600act a shep tranny and some 255 dr's
 
The whole questions of yours is kinda tricky but let me see if I got it right:

Your asking how much horsepower you'll be getting with bolt ons but bone stock head/block and sidemount right and running the never deceiveing 14B?

The 14b is a great turbo from the factory compared to many other factory turbos on diferent cars, alot of people bolt a aftermarket BOV, UICP and MBC and call it a day, then they upgrade to a 16g or something bigger without unleashing the max potential of that turbo (then again many others just want alot of power) with the bolt ons you're talking about: Intercoler piping, Maft, Manifold, o2 and 3" turbo back you'll definetaly get a whole lot of power, that turbo will stop working efficiently at around 21 psi, then again over 15 psi a FMIC helps quite a bit on any setup, but with a 3" turbo back and stock turbine housing/actuator you'll be spiking and having a hard time controling the boost at a steady level AND OF COURSE NEVER FORGET THE FUEL MODS, without these like they already mentioned you'll be hitting fuel cut easy, my guess is that since you plan on running the MAFT (wich help and almost eliminates fuel cut) you'll have a better margin to run higher boost, but get a dattalogger (<= very important) and play with the maft injector compesation and you'll be fine with stock injectors and even with a rewired stock fuel pump, but of course if you can get a 190 or even a 255 and a FPR don't hesitate as you'll be much much safer and less prone to detonate or run lean, they're not really expensive and they do save you a lot of headaches in the long run.

My sugestion to you is without altering your mod list the way you want it:
3" turbo back, upgraded intercooler pipes, Maft, ported 02 housing (this helps alot with boost creep) 190 or 255 fuel pump with FPR @ 40psi, Dattalogger, and some kind of boost control, an AFC its a great tool to have but not extremely needed at this point as you can tune with the maft/logger combo, start at 12 psi and work your way up carefully to 20 psi, with no more that 2 psi increments watch very closely your o2 voltage, knock, timing advance and fuel trims as you go. watch for a heatsoaked intercooler as it causes knock and time retardation, the side mount IC is a good core it has taken many people to the 12's in AWD's, but it heatsoaks easy so let it cool in between runs and even bring a little water sprayer to help it cool.

Like I said a well supported 14b is a good setup, and I believe that you're AWD, you'll be getting around 250-260 WHP, but a FMIC helps alot
 
thanks for the responses, i was kinda thinking low budget with this set up, so thats why i said no fmic, and also seeing as this would be my daily i didnt want to get the mpg down really low,...(thats why i dont want bigger injectors) but now im thinking that a 190 fp wouldnt hurt it too much, so i might as well get something along that line...i would be happy with something along the lines of a 13.0-13.7 but that also depends on how i drive her...

edit: concerning the boost creep with a 3 inch, if i kept the turbo at stock boost levels, or just did the boost solinoid relief free mod, would i still have this problem, i was thinking about getting a 3 inch from rnr, (turbo back) and a boost gauge to start off, but it sounds like this might not be a good idea
 
Even with the stock boost controller your going to be boost creeping with that 3 inch exhaust. Your best bet is to go with a 190 pump as it shouldnt effect your gas mileage at all as long as you run stock FPR.
 
That's my setup right now. Boost creep and fuel cut is my main problem right now. Make sure you fix your boost leaks if you have any.
 
thanks, anyone know how the boost creep is with a ported evo2 o2 housing from mach v?

edit: this is what im thinking as of now,

~rnr turbo back exaust, down pipe high flow cat, cat back for 699.00 (any idea of how good this system is, its suspiciously cheap...)
~autometer ultra lite boost gauge from dsm parts for 56.00 (autometer is a good company right?)
~evo2 o2 housing ported by mach v for 275
~spark plugs and wires (platinum or something, havent desided which or from where)
~3.5 inch gm maf from mach v for 130, + maft for 199.00
~intake pipe from mach v for 105 (will this fit on the 3.5?)
~255lph walbro mach v for 125
~safc2 from mach v for 340
~act 2100 from mach v for 335
~intake manifold from mach v for 599
~fmic bushcer or something like that 1299.00

i of corse dont have the money for all this right now, but this is the general order of what i will be getting things in, some things will probably change (255 lph pump needs to be bought sooner i think) any ideas will help, thanks
 
A STARQUEST fmic is a "cost effective" mod. Its a front mount, and its gotta be better than the stock smic. I never used a smic, so i cant speak for it and compare the two. I dont believe the starquest heatsoaks bad, well, mine doesnt anyways, easy install, and not much pressure drop. :thumb:
 
RNR, its suspiciously cheap.

If you search RNR you will find alot of people that have had to wait a very long time for the system. Although they were happy with it, took forever to get there.

I have always had a 3inch system on all of my dsm's. I never have had spike or creep. All of my systems had a full 3inch Dp also, no 2.5inch pipe to the flex and then 3inch, just 3inch. . But its upto you what you wanna do.

Since your on a budget you can run a 3000GT VR-4 fuel pump, which can be had for around 20 bucks used. There is no need for a intake manifold. The stock one has been proved over and over that its fine for way more then 300hp. Also that EVO3 o2 housing, where the down pipe attach's is cocked to a diffrent angle then stock so keep that in mind. Platinum spark plugs aren't the best plugs for our cars. A set of BPR7ES plugs are just fine. They are a step colder from stock. The 2100 is fine, as is a front mount IC. Just remember that a 15year old turbo isn't going to wanna push double what its been pushing for a long time. Have you checked to see if you have an eprom ecu in your car? If you do, getting it reflashed might be a route that you might wanna look into.

Hope this helps. Pianoman.

Oh you'll need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator to control that 255 if you get it.
 
With an AFC and good tunning you'll actually get better gas mileage even if you have upgraded injectors/fuel pump... don't believe me... look around in this regard and you'll find out!!!

you're mentioning about going low budget and you're list is rather expensive, Im sure you want good quality, but you can find a good and way cheaper gm maf from ebay also other things from your list, and I'll stay with 3" instead, but thats just me... they do exactly the same, unless you'll get a humongous turbo down the road... the best way to get all the power from that 14b and still avoid boost creep is getting an upgraded wastegaste flapper and a tubular 02 housing (very cheap in ebay, even cheaper and better than a ported evo3) or an o2 dump if you dont care for emissions wich for some reason i believe you care about them. but gowith what you can get man...!! and good luck with your project, if you tune good you'll have a quick a$$ car.

[hijacking thread]Pianoman: Whats up man... long time didn't hear from ya...! [/hijacking thread]
 
well i just took my car to newlogics today, and left it there to get some work on it,.. having my driver side fender fixed (prevents driver door from opening...) and the some spark plugs, oil flushed, rear diff/tcase fluids changed, oil and fuel filters changed, i believe i ordered an autometer ultra lite, if not ill order it when i pick up the car and i can install it myself,... and probably some other stuff too, i think i got a k&n air filter, and i did get new brake pads, maybe new rotors, (hes going to look and see if i need them, they make a weird sound in reverse only...???) probably some stuff i forgot...anyways, i completely forgot about starquest fmics, i was looking at a few conquests before i got my talon, and that completely slipped my mind...thanks for all the help...
 
new list:
~boost gauge
~rnr exaust (you guys say theres cheaper out there, but never how to get it)
~ported evo2 o2 housing, someone said its a little slanted, might have been paul at new logics...
~starion fmic (im guessing i will need pipes too, anyone got both of those for sale by chance?)
~act 2100
~intake pipe
~maf and maft someone said i can find them for cheaper, where?
~3000gt fuel pump, anyone got that either?
~safc2
~fuel pressure regulator? needed?

total without fpr is about 2500, and i probably wouldnt put any more into it after that... (well ill be making a mbc for about 20 bucks if that counts) maybe some into suspension...probably wont lower it though...
 
A fuel pressure regulator is needed if you want a good tune. Although the vr4 pump isn't flowing gobs of fuel like the 255. I believe its rated 180lph to 190lph. I got mine used from a guy who built his 3000gt. The GM maf sensor can be found in junkyards across america. their about 30-50 bucks. You can always buy a down pipe and make a cat-back since your on a budget. There is a few threads around here of people that have done it. And yes the evo3 is angled where it meets the downpipe. I picked up a used thermal r&d 3inch turbo back for 500bucks, all stainless steel. There out there you just have to look for them.
 
how can you be sure the electronics for something you find in a junkyard are good? what cars would a 3.5 gm maf be found on in a junkyard?

edit: anyone know of a good afc thats cheaper than a safc2 i just realised thats like the most expensive thing on my list, (well short of the exaust) also whats a good datalogger to monitor basially only fuel, simple stuff, i dont plan on modding my car past the end of this year(school year), (i hope to get another car i can turn into a full time track car and have this be my daily driver, since its just about the sweetest daily driver i can think of)
 
Hey, you don't need an afc. Look and see if you have an eprom ecu, if you do, you can get it sockted and flashed and you'll be set to go and its cheaper and better. OR if you perfer you can tune with the Maf-t. I would suggest running the Maf-t after the turbo(i.e. right before the throttle body) that way you get more accurate readings. Also the 3inch can be taken from a mid 90's impala. Do a search I know theres more cars you can pull it and the 3.5 off of. You can go to pocket logger, get the cable, find a used palm pilot that is compatible and then pick up MMCD for free.
 
what is an eprom ecu, sorry for the newb question

edit: found out where eprom is/how to find out if you have it or not, but still dont know what it does, or why or not it would be there or not... :confused:
 
An eprom is a chip that can be reprogrammed. It holds your fuel and timing maps among other data. This data can be modified for larger injector compensation, studder box, turn the stock boost gauge to read counts of knock, GET RID OF FUEL CUT, just to name a few. Also I would suggest that you get the capacitors in the ecu replaced now before they burn up on you and possibly destroy your ecu.

This guy does ecu repair, also you can contact him for getting the ecu reflashed.

http://simon.chi.il.us/~steve/Auto/DSM/ECURepair.html
 
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